We're in a large metro area so I don't know if things would work the same in your small town. Also, we were owner-builders, so that could make a difference.

We also found our local plumbing supply place to be very helpful. Our plumber was willing to use this supplier, and gave us a substantial discount from the list price. I don't think ANYBODY pays MSRP when buying these things for a new house build. I know that Home Depot has a book with their prices for plumbing fixtures, towel racks, and thousands of other items that can be special ordered, and all of them are discounted MSRP, so check to see if Lowes has something similar. Usually, the plumber won't warranty his work unless he buys the fixtures. Some of the profit he makes by buying the fixtures helps to pay for callbacks if he has to come at a later date for warranty issues.

Our experience was that most subs (and builders) have suppliers that they've worked with over time and found to be reliable, so that's who they'll use, not necessarily the one with the lowest price.

When I have gone to someone locally to look at various items where the local merchant has to pay for a building, utilities, etc., I buy those items locally. Otherwise, ultimately they will go out of business and we will have no where to look in the future. If I find something online that I can't find locally, I buy it there. In some cases, I would print off an item with the internet price and ask the local merchant if they would match the internet price, and they almost always said yes. Our lighting fixture place said they'd match any inet price. They gave us a discount because it was a whole house project. I checked some of their prices against the inet, found them to be about the same (sometimes a little higher, sometimes a little lower), and so just accepted all of their prices since our salesperson was absolutely super. She was able to suggest all kinds of things and spent a lot of time with me, so she really earned her commission!

Anne

The Allowance section in your contract should be for materials only (installation should be included in the Fixed Sum) and it should provide for two resolutions of the Allowances: (1) purchase by the contractor and a credit or add to the Fixed Sum by Change Order. (2) purchase by the Owner and a credit for the full amount of the Allowance item to the Fixed Sum by Change Order.

Give your GC a list of fixtures for pricing and if he gives you amounts that are too high buy them yourself. Of course, if you supply the fixtures you might have to enforce the manufacturer's warranty without the assistance of the builder.

First, see how the prospective contractors feel about this approach. Some may welcome it because it simplifies the Allowance procedure and others don't want to give up the potential for a mark-up on Allowance item overruns.

Hi, squarefour. I know your project is cost sensitive (you have the craftsman kitchen, right?) I'm in about the same stage as you. Perhaps it's the fact that sales are slow now, but everyone I have talked to has been willing to work for my business in terms of price deals or extra service, and that includes the big box stores.

Every single store has either told me what discount they give contractors (usually 10%), offered me a package deal discount, or hinted at the kind of cost I might get if I purchased a lot of my stuff from that store. You should not need to pay MSRP on anything. It's a buyer's market out there, and it's all negotiable.

If you are doing the buying, give your local plumbing store a list of what you want for your plumbing fixtures and ask them to bid for the job. They probably won't be able to match the cheapest prices online, but if you have problems they will probably provide much faster and better service than an 800#.

Make it clear in the construction contract who is responsible for supplying the fixtures, accessories, and appliances even if there is an option for you to do it yourself. Always deal directly with the GC on these matters not the subs. Keep the contractural relationships clear. It can be disruptive if contractors perceive the Owner as delaying the project with untimely decisions, nickel and dime issues or price shopping with the same suppliers.

Also keep in mind that the GC's sub is less likely to make a mistake by ordering incompatible fixtures, the wrong accessories, or just poorly designed devices (like half the stuff at Lowes & Home Depot) and might also get more consideration from the supplier if something goes wrong.

Toilets can be a major headache. Even the expensive ones like Kohler can operate very poorly. I recommend specifying a Toto G-Max model and let the plumber supply it.

As far as I know, Home Depot and Lowes both carry mass market plumbing products that appear to be the same items as the building supply houses' products, but differ in significant ways, not just in price.

Moen flatly states that their products sold through the box stores are internally identical to their regular line, but may have different external components. In other words, the shell of the faucet may be chromed plastic instead of chromed metal, but the valves are the real thing.

I have heard from multiple sources that the Delta fixtures in the box stores have downgraded internals, such as plastic valves. However, I have not been able to confirm this directly with Delta.

We have chosen to avoid the box stores for plumbing fixtures because of these practices, which we consider deceptive, except for Moen, which is at least up front about it. All our fixtures are coming from supply houses at a discount.

Our builder usually installs Delta. We asked for and got Moen instead. Moen provides a quality product with a lifetime warranty and will mail repair parts directly to the homeowner at no charge.

To follow up on creek-side: check the model number when comparing different sellers for the same item. If it's xyz-123 on-line and the Box store has something that is xyz-124, it may LOOK the same, but it's a different item. Keep in mind that some manufacturers change the model number to reflect a design change or the finish, and some may have additional numbers that indicate the date of manufacture. But in all cases be sure that you are comparing apple Gala to apple Gala and not to apple Delicious. When you find two items that are the same in appearance but with different numbers, it's fair to call the maker to find out just why they are different.

Thank you for some quick replies. My head is clearing.

Our preference is to buy locally and have local service if problems arise. We don't want downgraded products from the big box stores, which sounds like an issue with plumbing fixtures. I also appreciate the fact that someone from the local plumbing store spent over two hours helping me choose products. Of course I end up on the internet (and Gardenweb!) after that, trying to find out more about reliability, performance etc.

I'll do my homework so we can be very specific at the time of the bids. Then I'll talk to the contractors about where they get their supplies and cost vs quality issues. I have a few ideas about lighting and cabinet pulls that I haven't found locally. I can tell the contractors upfront that I would like to buy that stuff online. It sounds like a relatively low risk purchase.

The information about Delta and Moen is helpful, creek side. We live down the street from the Kohler plant and initially assumed everything would be Kohler. Now we are realizing that some Kohler toilets don't deliver the big push and the total cost of installing Kohler can be very high. So much to learn. I didn't realize that plumbers source plumbing fixtures...I fantasized about a big Kohler semi dropping off a cast iron tub in our lot on its way out of town (at a big discount, of course!)

Alabamanicole, nice to hear from you. We are building a craftsman-style foursquare (the foursquare id on gardenweb was already taken!) on a budget. I think we've found a few local contractors with great references, but every penny counts. This is one of the most interesting and expensive "jobs" I've had. I wish you the best of luck with your build and will look for your updates on Gardenweb.

Hi squarefour,

We worked directly through our local plumbing supply house for all faucets and plumbing fixtures, but we had to make it clear to our GC (who had to let his plumber know up front) that we would handle the purchase of all fixtures. Our local plumbing supply saleswoman gave us about 40% off retail (maybe partly because it was the 2nd whole house remodel we did w/her). We bought mostly Kohler fixtures with some Hansgrohe and Grohe. I price-checked against several online retailers and found, on most items, she was giving us a comparable, or sometimes better, price as those found on efaucets.com. You can save even more during the efaucets free shipping or 10% off promotions, which they run quite frequently.

In a past remodel, we had a plumber get quite upset about the fact that we intended to buy fixtures directly through the supply house because (unknown to us) he had bid the job with the expectation that he would also get a markup on the fixtures. We ended up working it out with him and paying him a bit more, but our GC had not explained this process to us (it was a cost plus contract) so we assumed it was okay for us to do our own thing with fixtures.

During our most recent remodel, we knew the question of who buys plumbing fixtures was one we should specifically ask the GC before the contract was signed (both for plumbing and electrical). It was fine with him and was perhaps different because we were on a fixed price contract and maybe that makes a difference, but I don't really see why it would, as long as you make it clear to the GC and his plumber that he should not assume he'll get any fixture mark-up on the job, and his bid numbers need to reflect that.

Also, some plumbers will try to convince you that it's important for them to buy the fixtures because they will then stand behind them, but I've never understood that position because the fixture warranty is what matters on the fixtures, and the contractors' work is supposed to also be guaranteed, so if there's a problem with either within the set period of time, you should technically be covered. If, for example, there's an issue with a faucet and you have to pay a plumber to come back and fix it, you'd probably have to pay for the plumber's time (unless you get the manufacturer to agree to cover it all) so you'll have to weigh the risk/benefit of getting the lower price on the fixture. I'm sure others will disagree with this strategy, and of course, I'm speaking from the homeowner's perspective, not the contractor's.

Regarding light fixtures, as it turned out, I wish I bought these online. My electrician told me he and many of his clients have had great luck using online retailers. Instead, I used my local lighting showroom, after researching the types of fixtures I wanted online. They did give me a fair price (which I, of course, doublechecked against online retailers), but actually, the local showroom service left a lot to be desired.

We had a few fixtures that came in damaged, and they did not "pre-check" them so they sat in my garage unopened yet damaged and then when our electrician came back to set fixtures, we found several of them were broken and, as it turned out, were on backorder so it took about another 4-5 weeks to get them in and could have delayed the final building inspection. The electrician claimed that it was the lighting store's responsibility to check the fixtures for quality control when they arrived in the store before we picked them up. We also paid one of the lighting showroom "designers" a $100 fee to come out to the house, give us design advice for proper fixture sizes, review our order and make sure that our downrods were correctly sized for chandeliers, etc. As it turned out, when the fixtures were delivered, she had not ordered long enough downrods on the DR chandelier and two of the ceiling fans. Again, another 3 week wait for these with another return trip by electricians! Very frustrating. So, you can get poor service either way, and who knows, I may have been better served by going online. There are some excellent lighting retailers online who offer good phone support, as I've since found out.

Here are my favorite online retailers for both lighting and plumbing, all of which seem to offer excellent prices -

For lighting -

www.1800lighting.com (the store is actually called Capitol Lighting, but this is their website address)
www.lightinguniverse.com

For plumbing -

www.efaucets.com - they seem to offer around 40% off retail, but I don't have any experience with their service.

Also, do a google search for ongoing coupons for all of these websites and you may find they have a weekend sale of 10% off or some such thing frequently.

Best of luck on your project!

We are building a house in Tennessee now and we have to work within he budget allotments the builder gave us.

We have bought faucets and some lighting onsale or clearanced at Lowes & home depot. We also shop at Salvage store they have overstock items we have found some ceiling fans there,we will probably get our tile for the kitchen and bathroom there, we have bought a few things on ebay a Prep sink for our island and a faucet for it. An oil rubbed Bronze roman tub faucet with hand shower was $100 on ebay a similar one had to be special ordered at Lowes for over $600.

Here is a link that might be useful: faucets

squarefour,

I agree with you about the lighting and cabinet pulls; we did the same. We chose from a catalog the plumber gave us to choose faucets and toilets. He installed Gerber toilets(1.6 gallon flush) and they are wonderful and not super expensive like the toto. We got our lighting from the internet and box stores and the electricians installed them without any opinion what so ever :) I found cabinet pulls on the internet and the local cabinet maker installed them no problem.

Good Luck!

I pretty much agree with everyone. We are purchasing all of the materials for our build and hiring all of the subs ourselves. Our builder is on a fixed contract for labor only. This has been a great arrangement for both us and him so far anyways - I'll let you know if we still feel that way in a couple of months when we are done!

Regarding things like plumbing & light fixtures - I asked our plumber and electrician about them. They are both people that we know socially and I trust them. The plumber told me that we would be better off to order them through him. He said that Big Box stores and on-line retailers often have "seconds" or fixtures that didn't meet the manufacturers' highest quality control standards. The electrician told us to go ahead and purchase light fixtures from a Big Box store or on-line as there doesn't seem to be much difference in quality. So we ordered our plumbing fixtures through the plumber for a total price within $200 of what I had priced out on-line. We are in the process of purchasing the light fixtures from Home Depot.

We are in a very rural area and the nearest Big Box store is 120 miles away so we are purchasing most things locally.

Susan3733, we appreciate the homeowner's perspective on plumbing and lighting. I wrote down the web sites and will check them out.

Eyesofgreen, ebay is also a good idea. I'm looking for tiles and some simple wood corbels and will check there.

Twotogo, I've never heard of Gerber toilets and will see if they are available around here.

Mthouse, it sounds like you have a good source of info about the plumbing and lighting. It reinforces my decision to seek a few special lighting fixtures on line.

Thank you everyone for your help. You are making this process so much easier!