Then avoid HOA developments.

Well that would have been nice....hindsight is certainly 20/20!

We ended up in an area with a ARB. We are in a small town and this is literally the only place we could have built the house we are building and not be building above the neighborhood without going to the next county. It is also 5 minutes from the kids school, the grocery store, husband's work, etc. They were not easy to deal with. Their idea of architectural review was whether one person (who developed the subdivision) "liked" your house. That person despises brick Georgians and most other American vernacular architecture - and I am of the opinion that the architecture should reflect the vernacular of the region. Difficult situation. They wanted French - we did not. Our solution was a two story brick french influenced georgian :). We are painting the brick and have flared rafter tails and french doors across the front.

All was approved in writing, thank goodness, because we got a panicked message from this person after the roof started going up (charcoal colored - all others in the subdivision are brown except a couple that are very light gray) and the red brick was delivered. We have approval for a dark charcoal gray asphalt roof (check), and cream colored painted brick (it will actually be more of a taupe but we should be covered here because most of the houses in the subdivision are also brown like the roofs and we did not want a brown house so we made it very clear we were doing cream, knowing they would let us go darker if we wanted - when she realized cream was approved she was very happy with taupe!). We also have approval for a cobblestone apron on our driveway (ARB says stone and everyone else has river rock or a variation which won't go with our house). I am waiting with bated breath for the next phone call but hopefully we are ok.

We did have to make some compromises like putting a light on top of our mailbox which I think is super silly looking. . . we wanted to do the required stone mailbox and then lights on stone piers pushed back a bit from the driveway entrance but that wasn't good enough. Through lots of scouring of pictures and real estate listings I have found a light that I like on top of a stone pier (more of a tall rectangle rather than the typical carriage light) and we will be doing gas lanterns so that should help too.

This whole ARB thing has really added to the stress of the build and I cannot wait until the outside is painted and finished so I can relax. She can't say anything about the inside :)

I cannot believe that the entire town would be controlled by one person. Also without knowing the rules, this could be a form of discrimination. If you truly want to live here, get a lawyer and research the legalities of the contract you were forced to sign before buying the property.
Sorry, I could not/would not live in such a community.

The entire town is not controlled by one person. By one subdivision might be. There may be only one subdivision in a small town that has custom high-end homes. Therefore, one person can control that part of the market.

In many areas of the country, there are markets where nearly everything is HOA controlled. Here you can't be in the city without an HOA. You could buy an older house and tear it down and not be in an HOA. Don't ever try to resell the house though and it would certainly stick out.

HOAs and subdivisions really do have their upside - whether it be playgrounds, trails, or community pools. They also have higher resale (at least in my area). So a developer would be crazy to not require an HOA and then the bank would be crazy to not require it. The cycle continues.

People who live in an area where 5 acre lots are normal may not understand. They also can't walk or bike to work, schools or the grocery store. Anywhere in my county, an acre within the city is cost prohibitive for most. Outside the city with no HOA, it is worth less than 1/2.

We are building in an HOA neighborhood w/ a one person design committee as well. We are building on 5 acres and there are plenty of non-HOA lots we could have built on. We chose the neighborhood w/ the HOA because 1) there's a number of community features including an activity area and pond and walking trails shared by residents 2) we wanted to protect our property values and the HOA makes sure that nothing will be built that brings property values down. 3) we have someone to turn to if there is a problem like people in the neighborhood not maintaining their yard 4) the HOA helps to make the neighborhood a peaceful place to be by prohibiting activities that cause excessive noise, like riding dirt bikes through the (private, resident's only) streets. We don't even live there yet and we already used this rule to put a stop to some very annoying behavior by some visitors who thought the quiet little trails were a dirt bike race track.

Long story short, for certain people an HOA is a good thing.

As to the PITA design and review committee, we ended up being able to work well w/ our guy once we started "asking him for advice" on things that we didn't really care about. Once he felt important and felt like his opinion was more valued, he relaxed about us making design choices.

"Well that would have been nice....hindsight is certainly 20/20!"

You new an HOA was present before you purchased.

Even a little diligence would have indicated they can be a real PITA.

Our CITY has a Building Review Board. They held us up for months before issuing a building permit. Then, because one prominent resident was upset to see the teardown, we had to endure a public 'whupping'. We had city-issued teardown and building permits. Didn't matter. This blowhard needed to throw his weight around.

No, the BRB actions were not legal, but we could bow and scrape or contest all this -- and wait a year for the case to be called in court. We'd 'win'.

Geez, the local lawyer we hired was afraid to peep back to this mayor-appointed board of busybodies -- none an architect -- who required plan afer plan be altered. At one point we had to get new drawings showing the house roofline lowered BY ONE FOOT. (We were at 29 feet on an acre zoned for 35 feet.) Among their demands were simulated true divided light windows and a cedar shake roof.

They had no problem with spending our money or making us wait two months for the 'next scheduled board meeting', followed by more change orders. They caused us to move out of the house we'd sold on a delayed-closing basis and live in an apartment for months. It was all UNFAIR, ILLEGAL -- and an ugly lesson in CLOUT.

I meant to say that no one on the BRB was an architect or builder. They were all just 'interested citizens'. Spare me!

Our ARB is not one person - it just feels that way :) There is an architect on the board who knows of my architect (not in town but in Atlanta) so that is why it got approved I think. You are right though, there are good sides. I drove through another subdivision where our builder is building another custom home in a neighboring county. High end subdivision but more rural - think agricultural fencing and stone pillars between houses. Beautiful subdivision and surprisingly has little resemblance to the cow field it once was ;). At any rate, too far away from where we wanted to be and also we wanted to be in the woods. They are finishing up a home in there for an ex athlete which has a lighted tennis court and batting cage - 8 huge two story industrial lights. It is a field so no existing tree canopy for buffer. Lots of leland cypress, magnolias, hollys etc planted around it to screen it but it will be 10 years before it is fully covered since the lights are so tall. In the mean time, these beautiful homes will feel like they look out on Talledega when the lights are on. There is an ARB and I was SHOCKED they approved that - and honestly wonder if they did. I must say that would never happen where we are building and if it got put up without approval they would make you take it down regardless of cost.

"It was all UNFAIR, ILLEGAL -- and an ugly lesson in CLOUT. "

It may be unfair, and someone may be throwing their weight around, but it is probably pretty far from illegal.

Did you purchase before the law was passed?

Well, what's really aggravating is that we read and followed the deed restrictions before we bought the lot, so, yes, we knew the restrictions and complied with them during the design process. They are going beyond what the restrictions require. We also are one of the last lots and what we're building fits in with the rest of the architecture in the neighborhood. I really don't get it...it's not a pink and purple geodesic dome. Oh well, this too will pass....

Athensmom....glad to hear we're not the only ones!

we also live in a small rural town with an ARB. while all plans must pass through their hands they have no power whatsoever. they can hold things up so people try to make them happy but i can't quite figure out why they exist at all.

i hate them. in their next life these people will be living in studio apartments with 30 other people.

I just moved to Virgina and was trying to be very careful not to wind up in this situation. I verified several times with my real estate agent that the house I was buying was not covered by a HOA or POA. There are even specific disclosure forms stating that. A week after I moved in I found out that we are in fact restricted by an Architecture Review Committee, but is is run by the local Citizens Association rather than an HOA or POA. I was supposed to be given a copy of the relevant Covenants at settlement, but that didn't happen.

My real estate agent probably answered my questions about this accurately, but I believe she still intentionally deceived me.

I thought only HOA's and POA's could create and enforce review boards. In Virginia that is not the case.

Be very, very careful.

Thanks for making me laugh Kate! I'm at the point where I'm pulling my hair out!

brickeye -- It was *illegal*. The city had issued our demolition permit and our building permit. The 'stop work' order came immediately after we started the demo. It was issued entirely in response to the clouted blowhard who was upset. It caused us to wait another two months to start building, only so that Mr. Big could villify us at a public (and televised) meeting of the BRB.

The BRB, an 'advisory' committee, had already approved our plan after months of haggling about one foot less height, etc. We had PERMITS.

While the 'advisory' committee was holding up our building permit, our lawyer and second one told me we could take it to court and be upheld -- but it would waste at least a year of waiting to get on the court docket. I really wanted to go after them after Mr. Big's performance, but decided to put the goal of getting the house built ahead of all that.

One lawyer in town had taken his case to court before we got into the system. (Easier when you are paying only yourself to bring the suit.) His house plan was completely within zoning regulations, but the BRB wanted 'adjustments'. He won...eventually. We've been in our house ten years. He's been in his for two.

"It was *illegal*. The city had issued our demolition permit and our building permit. The 'stop work' order came immediately after we started the demo. It was issued entirely in response to the clouted blowhard who was upset."

It sounds like a perfectly legl item.

blowhard pulled some strings and got a stop work order issued.

That does not make it illegal.

Annoying and a PITA, but still legal.

If it actually was illegal you should have ignored it and let them try to take action against you.

brickeye -- There was no legal basis for the stop work order. That WAS 'the action they took' against us.

I'm saying that you can't fight city hall. Do you mean to say YOU would try it? My contractor wasn't about to. (He, like our caving lawyer, "has to continue to work here".) This isn't just some HOA. It's the city.

We were the first to build in our development 6 years ago and knew it had an HOA but bought here because we also wanted to protect our investment. We built in a neighborhood that was supposed to be "custom homes in the Williamsburg style built by approved builders with an emphasis on quality and not quantity." Being the first house our builder was held to extremely tight standards, but ended up with a great home because of it. There was to be no spec homes. Only natural materials. Architecturally correct details. Etc. Within two years the market had died and the money crazy developer started selling off lots to any low end tract home builder he could find. These builders couldn't find Williamsburg on a map let alone build a house that incorporates that style. It turns out that the HOA was made up of the developers son, his engineer, his realtor and a PITA interior decorator that worked for him. They approve anything these new builders submitted as long as they kept buying lots. The foundation of a new home was dug around the corner from me last week. The home will be a 3000 sq ft ranch. The builder has promised them that they would be in by Halloween. This is not a ploy to get the contract. He routinely builds homes in less than three months, even 7000 sq ft ones. Hey, remember, the emphasis is quality though, not quantity!

"There was no legal basis for the stop work order. That WAS 'the action they took' against us.

I'm saying that you can't fight city hall. Do you mean to say YOU would try it?"

That means the order was likely invalid on its face.

Been there done that.

I have tied up AHJs and city halls in knots.

It is not hard when you are married to an attorney.

My wife would have been in court the next morning after a stop work was issued challenging every detail of it.

I have to keep working also, but with a PE license it is pretty hard for them to bother me.

The last time I had anything like that happen she was out of the court in less than 20 minutes with an injunction lifting the stop work, and causing a lot of problems for the agency that issued it and the person who initiated it.

It dragged on for a few months and resulted in the AHJ being held in contempt of court when they tried to assert authority they did not actually have.

Ah, but we are only one older couple building one home, neither of us with an "Esq." after our name. I believed our attorney *could* and *should* have done something about the stop work order...but he wouldn't make waves. He may have been right, judging we'd be time and money ahead to play meek and get ON with it. I hated letting it go, perpetuating the 'system', but my crusading days are behind me.

Other residents who had been through the BRB mill with ridiculous demands came up to me at meetings to sympathize. One had been required to put more and more elaborate fenestration along one side of her house to improve the neighbor's view; then the neighbor erected a 10-foot fence between the properties. The BRB demanded shake roofing on EVERY style of house. (We escaped because our next-door neighbor had just re-asphalt-shingled his roof.) However, our height was tied to his ranch-plus-dormers; his house was history in two years, replaced by a two-story -- although THEIR roof had to be lowered not to dwarf OUR house. Yet they can't stop a the owner of a lot across the creek from us from putting a brick Italianate on top of a brick 'water retention system' in a flood plain. The first tenent of the BRB is that the house must suit the lot. Hah!

I'm head of the ARC in my neighborhood. It should never be a one person show. We have three currently, and we usually agree.

ARC, HOA, etc cannot practice selective enforcement. If you feel they allowed someone else to do what you are asking to do, basically they can't.

And fyi, most Judges (if it got that far) hate HOAs and always tell the parties to reach an agreement.

You don't say what you are asking that they are declining.

We have and Environmental Control Board, an Architectural Review Board and a Joint Coastal Committee. Just try to find somewhere in the village code that says what their specific functions are supposed to be.

I did find out from a sympathetic village employee that the ECB is advisory only, but don't tell the chairwoman that.

We appeared before her and her cronies twice. The first time, she told us that the permitted 30% lot clearing in the code "didn't really mean that" and that "we don't do things that way here." She told us that our property was "environmentally significant" but when asked who had made that determination, she named a non-existent county agency.

For our second go-round, we were required to have an arborist identify every tree over 8" in diameter on a 3.5 acre lot. Then, we had to have him prepare an affidavit to prove that a number of trees we wanted to remove were a "danger to persons or property." Even when presented with it, she told us she didn't believe him ("hogwash" was the word she used) and told us we should hire her son's friend to evaluate the trees (we politely declined). She also had the nerve to look at photos of naked, leafless trees our arborist had certified were dead and told us "They don't look dead to me!" When I asked her whether she or anyone else on the board had any credentials that would qualify them to challenge the arborist's conclusions, she finally had to admit that none of them did.

Then she asked us to agree not to put in a swimming pool down the road, even though 2 other board members have pools themselves. When she saw that we were also tentatively considering a tennis court, she and another board member went nuts, talking about how I was ruining the "environmental integrity" of the lot with my "oversized" tennis court. When I pointed out that all tennis courts are the same size, I was nastily told "I know how big a tennis court is."

I cannot tell you how rude, nasty and obnoxious these "public servants" were. And before anyone says it, you're right -- we should have asked more questions before we bought.

However, after pushing every button I have (as well as a few I didn't know I had), I stopped trying to be polite and get along (she does live directly across the street from me, and I had hoped to preserve some semblance of neighborly accord). I told her I had never heard such bulls---t in my life, and then told them how the zoning laws in my state are interpreted. When she then asked me whether I was "some sort of lawyer or something," I sweetly replied, "as a matter of fact, I am."

Turns out, from all accounts, she is an unmitigated bully and everyone is heartily sick of her. By standing up to her, I got everything I wanted (which was nothing more than the law allows, BTW -- in fact, quite a bit less).

However, she has called the village police on me 3 times already for perceived violations (all of which she herself committed when she built a few months ago -- don't even get me started), although she has been quiet for the last month or so. The building inspector has her number, though, and he's been enormously helpful.

Sorry for the lengthy rant, but this brought back very unpleasant memories. I didn't sleep for days after that fiasco of a meeting.

Had to revive this thread after the conversation I just had with the ARB committee of one about my house. There are actually a couple more people on the ARB (her husband and son and a local architect I think). She is the one in charge though - think of a 70 year old busy body with too much time on her hands.

She called me this morning because a "neighbor" pointed out to her that the covenants of the neighborhood say no brick houses. This was brought to her attention weeks after the bricks were delivered and a week or so after the entire house has been bricked. We always intended to do brick, painted, and it was approved by the ARB. Not sure what they plan to do about it now - don't have any recourse I guess. Thankfully, every single detail about the house was approved in writing, including the painted brick (which they have now complained about), the charcoal gray roof (apparently brown asphalt or cedar shake was expected), the wood portico on the front (not installed yet but they will hate that too I am sure - round columns with a chippendale railing and copper cap). We ended our conversation by reiterating the entire approval process and what had been approved and what we were doing for walkways, driveway color, driveway apron, mailbox stone, etc.

She is a loon.

Oh and even more interesting there are two other houses on the street that are brick but "they have stone on them" so that changes the brick somehow???

"When she then asked me whether I was "some sort of lawyer or something," I sweetly replied, "as a matter of fact, I am." "

Really helps sometimes.

It is not often hard to tie folks like that in knots with careful and polite questioning.

"When I asked her whether she or anyone else on the board had any credentials that would qualify them to challenge the arborist's conclusions, she finally had to admit that none of them did."

My wife and I have done it a few times very nicely.

The AHJs think they can push on technical issues with an attorney, so then it is my turn.

It is a large enough county I do not have to deal with petty stuff from an individual inspector who gets bent at a hearing.
Most of them have been professional enough to move on when they lose.

I couldn't resist pulling out the covenants and re-reading them after our phone call this morning. It specifically says exterior materials shall be "wood, stucco, stone or brick." The "or" is the operative word. . . not only is all brick acceptable, but so is all wood. I used to litigate contracts for a living, so hopefully she will let the whole issue lie as I have a clear win on my side. . .

Don't even get me started. Why don't people just mind their own business? Ours was not a HOA. It was an old nosy lady who had to butt into everything. And the city just tried to appease the people who whined and complained the most instead of what was truly fair. And they kept changing their mind which cost us thousands of dollars.

We have an old nosy lady ON the HOA. Your house is classic and beautiful - I can only hope we achieve the same. This chick is complaining because we don't have stone on our house - not required by the covenants and not what was approved by the ARB and just generally not my style. . . . Lots of others do in the neighborhood though. I wanted to build something that would stand the test of time and that someone wouldn't be able to point to and say - oh that was built in the early 21st century. You have definitely done that pp7!

athens - hang in there, baby!! (I hope that's not sexist.) I can give you plenty of advice about keeping your cool, holding your tongue, keeping it professional, sticking to the facts etc., but when I was faced with THE MOST UNREASONABLE, OBNOXIOUS GROUP of know-nothing bullies, I have to admit (sheepishly) that I lost my cool. I'm still angry at myself for not being able to maintain a more professional demeanor.

The older I get, the lower my tolerance for B.S.

Good luck, and keep us posted!