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Bill V. - Grout Question

15 years ago

Bill -

We are having porcelain tile installed in our foyer (13"x13" tiles) and in our powder room (6'x6" tiles). Both are heavy traffic areas. Is there one grout that is better for these areas than another grout? New to my vocabulary - "sanded grout" and "unsanded grout"; "Portland grout"; "epoxy grout". BTW, we do not yet have a tile installer.

Thanks for your help.

Fiesta

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Comments (5)

bill_vincent
15 years ago
Okay. I think once I get back home, this is going to be another one that goes into the tile FAQ in the bathrooms gallery.

Although there are others, for all intents and purposes, there are two kinds of grout-- portland cement based, and epoxy. The portland cement based grouts are the conventional grouts that have been around for millenniums. Although in the last few decades, they've been modified with latex and other polymers to make them stronger and more resistant to mold and mildew, they're basically the very same grouts that have been used since Greek and Roman days. There are two kinds of portland cement based grouts. One is sanded, and the other unsanded. The only difference between the two is, as their names imply, the sand. The ONLY thing that determines which grout should be used is the joint size. NOT the glaze, NOT aesthetics, NOT the material (ceramic vs. glass or polished marble), NONE of those. I'll repeat-- the ONLY thing that determines which is used, is the joint size. Anything under an 1/8" takes unsanded grout. Anything 1/8" or bigger, you use sanded grout. If you use unsanded grout in larger joints, the cement in the grout will shrink way too much as the water evaporates out of it, and the joints will end up shrinking and cracking bigtime. If you try using sanded grout in smaller joints, the grains of sand will literally clog the top of the joint, and not allow the grout to get down INTO the joint, and the grout will flake off in a matter of days.

As for the Epoxy, most epoxy grouts use a much finer "sand", and therefore can be used in any size grout joint. Further, epoxy grouts are everything people say they are. They're much easier to clean, practically stainproof, and also extremely expensive. Most epoxies will cost atleast 4 times the cost of conventional grouts, and the installer will also usually charge a premium of between 1.50- 2.50 a foot for the use of epoxy grout. There are alot of poeple who will disagree with me, but my own opinion is that for most residential installations, epoxy grout is bigtime overkill. The ONLY times I'll recommend epoxy grout is first, if you're installing a tile countertop, and two, if you have animals in the house that either aren't housebroken, or are prone to accidents. In either of those cases, epoxy might be worth the money. For anything else, though, conventional grout is more than good enough.
yadax3
15 years ago
Wow. I'd never heard of epoxy grout until now, Bill. Is it any different to mix/apply or just more expensive? Is it easier to clean off of tile?
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I assume that you mean before the tile is permanently set in place, not when (or if) there is a dry run so to speak to see how the pattern will fit into the space(?) Correct. Would an experienced professional even need to lay out the tiles ahead of time or would they typically proceed directly from prep to installation? Yes and no. Some WILL actually lay them out dry. I've got my own thoughts on that, but however they do it, so long as they show some kind of forethought instead of just finding a corner and starting, they're ahead of the game. What I'll normally do is take several tiles and measure to see what the coursing (one grout joint and one tile) measures. I'll then make a cheat sheet of coursing that comes out somewhere around 2 feet (whether that be 4 6x6, 2 12x12, etc), and then I'll measure around the area, to see how the tile is going to fall. it's from there that I'll decide if I can center the layout, or if there might be a better way, taking into consideration how the tile will hit several different surfaces, and which ones are most obvious in the room. (did you get all that? LOL) With an agreed upon layout in hand, would most experienced installers be able to anticipate potential issues around niches and other elements that could require partial tiles so that you could have a discussion ahead of time as to how they would be handled? before the very first tile gets set, a good installer will know exactly how the tile is going to hit any obstruction in the layout. In fact, I'll grid out the area with chalk lines, and then all my cuts will be made before I set the first piece of tile. but even before the cutting starts, I'll know how big all my cuts will be. Just curious... Do you find that it's best if the homeowner stay available or stay away while you're completing your work? Doesn't matter to me either way. I'd prefer that the customer be available in case of questions that come up, but if they'd like to watch (and I HAVE had several that did) the whole time, they're most welcome to watch. I LOVE playing to an audience!! That's when they see that all this stuff doesn't exactly happen just by "luck"! I know alot of installers who'd rather the customer weren't around, though-- too many questions. Funny thing is, I welcome the questions. To me, the internet has given us the one thing this industry has really needed-- an educated consumer. Not so many fly by nights getting away with their BS any more. And Bill G-- yes-- that's just the labor cost. the retail is MUCH more. Based on 12x12 tyile, a 25 pound bag of grout should grout about 150 sq. feet, for about 15.00- 25.00, depending on the grout. For epoxy, a unit will do about 75 sq. feet, for about 80.00.
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Bill V - I found one of your comments in an old GW post from 2008. I copied and pasted below. So I'm thinking unsanded. If I am wrong, please let me know! Thank you so much for all of your help! As for the explanation of the different grouts, I just posted this in an FAQ thread on the gallery side of the bathrooms forum. Here it is, copied and pasted: Although there are others, for all intents and purposes, there are two kinds of grout-- portland cement based, and epoxy. The portland cement based grouts are the conventional grouts that have been around for millenniums. Although in the last few decades, they've been modified with latex and other polymers to make them stronger and more resistant to mold and mildew, they're basically the very same grouts that have been used since Greek and Roman days. There are two kinds of portland cement based grouts. One is sanded, and the other unsanded. The only difference between the two is, as their names imply, the sand. The ONLY thing that determines which grout should be used is the joint size. NOT the glaze, NOT aesthetics, NOT the material (ceramic vs. glass or polished marble), NONE of those. I'll repeat-- the ONLY thing that determines which is used, is the joint size. Anything under an 1/8" takes unsanded grout. Anything 1/8" or bigger, you use sanded grout. If you use unsanded grout in larger joints, the cement in the grout will shrink way too much as the water evaporates out of it, and the joints will end up shrinking and cracking bigtime. If you try using sanded grout in smaller joints, the grains of sand will literally clog the top of the joint, and not allow the grout to get down INTO the joint, and the grout will flake off in a matter of days.
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I agree with his fix, although I'd be using siliconized latex caulk from the same company that made the grout. In fact, it shouldn't be "the fix". It should've been done that way in the first place. I would have him score out the rest of the grout in that joint around the shower and caulk the entire thing, because the rest of it WILL come out, sooner or later.
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From what I'm seeing it's a typical modified portland cement based grout, which tells me that it can be sealed. Keep in mind I don't use TEC products all that often (only because they're not locally available). But I HAVE used their products more times than I can count in the past. With respect to your backsplash, it wouldn't be a bad idea to seal the grout. Here is a link that might be useful: TEC AccuColor Grout
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bill_vincent
15 years ago
It's more difficult and more expensive, and I'm sure you HAVE heard of it before. Ever hear the name "Spectralock"?
yadax3
15 years ago
Oh, okay. Yep, I've heard of it - just never knew what it was until now.
fiesta
Original Author
15 years ago
Thanks so much, Bill. I truly appreciate your input.
Fiesta

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