I have the Miele 4880 MC oven. It is dead on accurate temperature wise. The readout gives a temperature and my oldest and well tested recipes that I've made many, many times come out on the minute. Roasting and baking. It's extremely impressive.

You might ask if your oven calculates average heat. My previous oven did that -- cycled up and down and I could never get an accurate temperature. It was terrible. Hope yours isn't one of those.

Unless I am reading their site wrong, I believe the MasterChef and Navitronic ovens are the same. I click on Double Ovens, Master Chef H4000 series and it brings up Navitronic H4890B2 multifunction oven.

The choices for double ovens are limited compared to single ones though.

Thank you all for your response.

To recap Mindstrom: for all the ovens; when the oven beeper sound say at 350F and oven control panel show 350F, the oven is not at 350F, right?

So to make things like a souffle or other sensitive stuff, I should make sure the oven temperature is stablized before I put it in and not trust the beep?

I had so much problem with my new Dacor (this is my third) that I wanted to make sure that it is not just a problem with this particular oven. With my previous oven (among other things), the tech service guy did mentioned that my upper was approx 15F off & the bottom was 10F or so off. I guess I should make a service call & make certain that everything is working as it should.

rococogurl, you seems to love your Miele, I wish I had gone for that in the first place & save myself from the headaches. Imagine, buy a $12 Taylor oven temp to make sure a $6K machine does it job. LOL.

I have a DF Wolf, 30-inch, and when the oven chimes, I put in whatever I'm baking. Even souffles. I don't add extra pre-heat time.

Everything comes out fine and I'm delighted with the Wolf.

(And, I have no idea where the sensor is.)

Mindstorm is an engineer so I always bow to her scientific knowledge which is far more precise than my experience with various recipes.

The only thing I can add is that the Miele rep I spoke to prior to purchasing my oven -- I really did a lot of checking -- told me to always preheat for 30 minutes. He essentially said the sensor buzzer will go off when the oven reaches the preheat temp as registered by the sensor (which Mindstorm eloquently explained) but that the cavity of the oven is so large it may not be thoroughly heated so let it go to 30 minutes for the best results. Then open/close the oven as little as possible.

Common sense says this would apply to any oven -- especially the big ones on the ranges.

For a souffle in my oven, I would definitely leave it on for 30 minutes. BUT the moment you open the oven door to put in the souffle you get approx 1/3 heat loss. Of course, this is true of any oven -- you get heat loss when you open the door.

nutkin - Have walked in your shoes with my previous oven (not a Dacor but another brand with similar well discussed issues). I went with a buyback. It cost me an upcharge to switch and it's been worth every cent.

I believe people are either stovetop cooks or oven cooks. I'm definitely the latter. I make rice in the oven f.ex., love to bake, roast and oven-braise but hardly ever saute. The oven is the heart of my kitchen.

At the risk of Mindstorm rolling her eyes because I sound like an ad, admittedly, it's the first new oven in 20 years for me and the "smart" component and precision are truly impressive.

This was referenced here a while back - very informative article on the new generation of ovens and how to check your oven's temperature.

The heat is on

Thanks mcmann for that great article. Flo Baker, the author, is a personal family friend and an amazing baker. She's great.

Thanks for all the info everyone. This is very helpful.

If you are baking something that is sensitive to temperature in a larger oven it's best to preheat as long as possible. An oven that has been on longer will hold it's heat better when you open the door to put something in. For some foods it might be better to have the temp lower at the beginning anyway. In baking if the top bakes too fast because of high heat it can cause cracking.

Most oven these days come with timers to start the oven and most people can't think of a reason why you would set up an oven to start ahead of time. Who leaves the food in the oven all day? IF you are one of those people who can plan ahead set the oven to turn automatically for you ahead of time. Let say turn it on at 6 pm when you are leaving work or maybe 7am on Thanksgiving. This way when you start cooking the oven will be nice and warm... just remember to take everything out.

I don't think the temperature swing is quite as important if you are using convection.

The only thing I can add is that the Miele rep I spoke to prior to purchasing my oven ... told me to always preheat for 30 minutes. He essentially said the sensor buzzer will go off when the oven reaches the preheat temp as registered by the sensor but that the cavity of the oven is so large it may not be thoroughly heated so let it go to 30 minutes for the best results. Then open/close the oven as little as possible.

Groan! Rococogurl said in 3 sentences what it took me a whole book chapter to say. Brevity is not my long suit.

Common sense says this would apply to any oven -- especially the big ones on the ranges.
And this was the nub of my entire post above. And I didn't even allude to the size of the oven part of things.

At the risk of Mindstorm rolling her eyes because I sound like an ad, admittedly, it's the first new oven in 20 years for me and the "smart" component and precision are truly impressive.

On the contrary rococogurl, I was quite blown away after my experimentation outlined above with the quality of the ovens you can get. This was the first time I've ever purchased appliances and certainly the first time I've ever conducted such research on home appliances. I was really and truly blown away at the results and I was really thoroughly impressed by the Miele. The only reason I don't wax quite as eloquent as you do is that the oven that impressed me way beyond all imaginings was the Gaggenau - one of those 27" model. It was almost boring to play with as its' temperature stability was just that good - not even opening the doors once I'd gotten it to temperature for about 20 or 30 minutes could dislodge the temperature reading from my thermometer. Now I refuse to actually believe that but certainly its variations were beneath the resolution and precision of my sensors.
The cooking results were also impressive BUT not especially distinguishable from those of the Miele. Still, I'm a much better engineer than I am a cook (not a hard feat, trust me) so I covet the Gaggenau but - again, not being much of a cook, I couldn't justify the nearly $4K for an oven regardless how well it can dispel spatial thermal anomalies. :-)

One day perhaps the dollar to euro exchange rate will swing back in our favor and bring some of those prices down to earth.

Mindstorm - I love listening to you! It makes me giggle and expands my mind at the same time.

I, too, covet the Gaggeneau but the 30 " doesn't come out until after the new year. :(

rococogurl - I suspect $4K will become the new $2K as "we" get habituated to crazy prices. :-)

Teachersuzanne - bless you! You're probably the only person who's amused at my musings. I was roundly slapped about the head and shoulders at my first foray into the cooking forum when I posted asking for confirmation that of course my brand new oven was a rotter and I outlined what I was trying to make, mentioned the few trifling substitutions in the interest of full disclosure and detailed the results. Well, the stream of people who stepped up to reprimand me for being a hoax and/or for daring to presume upon their cooking acumen because "what normal person" would make the kind of substitutions I had and expect halfway decent results?! I must have been mocking them. (Apparently, among other things, you can't make cake batter made with apple sauce instead of butter, no baking powder (or was it soda?) a few other missing ingredients, meant for a loaf tin but put in an 14"x8"x2" baking sheet, and cook it for 40 minutes and expect equitable results.) I was sure, had I only gotten the Miele or the Gaggenau, that I would have had a raving success on my hands.
Believe me, I had my mind expanded. With ear-ringing results.

Goodness, what an analysis. I've followed the advice of my girlfriend who is a Home Economist for Pillsbury. She says always preheat at least 20 minutes for baking.

Addtionally, she recommends to ignore the preheat signal for baking. The oven needs to fully stabilize and/or soak up the heat for best baking results.

Your baking pans make a significant difference with regard to the end results. Dark color, ceramic or pyrex will cause overbrowning and shrinking of cake crusts. So the heat will need to be reduced by 25 degrees.

She also informs that plain aluminum cake pans and cookies sheets deliver optimal browning. I'd have to agree. I've followed her advice and it works no matter how simple or high tech the oven. I'm on my 3rd Kitchenaid wall oven and it bakes, roasts and browns evenly. The results are very satisfying.

C

Bingo charlyinfl. You can spend a lot on an oven or you can spend a little. Preheat for at least 20 minutes, put a stone in the bottom of the oven to even out the heat, and bake or roast away. My Hotpoint oven bakes just fine. I don't rotate pans halfway through and everything comes out fine and even.

That was a very interesting article Mcmann. Thanks for the link.

Mindstorm - I did look at the Gagg & love it, but it was too expensive. Back then, the exchange rate was not as bad as it is now.

Thank you all for your advice; I shall ignore the beep of the preheat bell.

Okay, I don't know the post you wrote, but apple sauce is a fine substitution for butter. Alton Brown does a great show on substitutions. For you other, um, creative changes, we may have to talk! :)

You do have to be careful in some ovens not to leave the pizza stone in the oven. When I cooked for Viking, we used to leave it in all the time and it did something to the heat in the oven (I don't remember what) so the temp was always off. The engineers said to take it out except for when we were doing bread or pizza.

Interesting huh? Thoughts on the science of that, mindstorm?

A stone in the bottom of a gas oven is no problem whatsoever, nor would it be an issue in an older electric, provided you don't scorch it by getting it too close to the exposed element.

I taught cooking for a decade and used a pizza stone continually in electric ovens. The floor of the oven warped and the thermostat was thrown off. That was 20 years ago.

In an electronic, electric oven I'd use it for bread and pizza but for evening out the heat when there are sensors -- not so much. Insulation in the oven also is a factor.

teachersuzanne, the reason the temp is off in the Viking ovens is that they "average" temperature. The ovens cycle up and down and the temperature is never stable or accurate. Food does not cook evenly, particularly bread and pastry. Poor is a kind description of the performance.

Interesting about baking stones. I kept my pizza/baking stone on the floor of our old oven at all times (no place else to store it in the old kitchen!). Right now I have it in my tray cab, but was considering moving to the floor of our new Wolf to free up some more space in that cab if need be. Should I not even consider storing it in the oven? Also, can I place it directly on the oven floor (for usage and/or storage)? FYI, it is not completely flat on the bottom, there are elongated bumps on the underside (at the corners along the edge).

I kept/used it on the floor in the old oven here, as well as the one in our previous home, with no ill effects (as far as I know), but now that I have my new Wolf, I don't want to chance messing it up in any way.

Catmom, my new wall oven has hidden bake elements like my previous other 2. There were specific warnings not to line the oven floor with anything. No foil, cookie sheets, drip trays etc. Permanent damaged to the enamel finish would result. I'd be severly depressed if I ruined my oven by not following directions.

This recommendation is the same for each of the Kitchenaid ovens I've had. What does your manual suggest? We use a pizza stone too, but when I'm not using it, it resides in my lesser used lower oven.

My new oven has that luscious Cobalt blue color, full glass door and ball bearing racks........I love it. I can't say enough about it.

Where the Wolf manual says to use the stone (I'm betting it's on a rack) use the stone. Nowhere else.

Thanks charlyinfl and rococogurl! I'll check the manual.

Oh, forgot to add, ours is an AG range.

I, too, have a Dacor Discover oven and am not experiencing any odd temperature issues. Of course, I haven't put a separate thermometer inside the oven, but it seems to be baking just fine. I baked several simultaneous sheets of biscotti over the holidays and they all baked evenly despite having several trays in the oven at once.

The Dacor Discovery ovens have three temperature sensors inside the unit, and I'm sure the computer averages the temperature readings to determine when it has hit its set point. That sounds like a great method to me, but I haven't baked any temperature sensitive items in my oven like souffles, etc.

I had a svce tech here yesterday and asked him about the oven temp. According to the tech, on the Wolf at least, the set oven temp is reached within just a few minutes of the indicator light going out. I mentioned that the oven thermometer I'd put in the oven on an initial test-run didn't show the set temp until about 10 (15?) minutes after the light went out (but that once it reached it, it held it right there just fine). The tech indicated that the (dial) oven thermometers always lag a bit, and that we were perfectly okay starting our cooking/baking when the light goes out. FWIW, he seemed to know his stuff and did seem to know what he was talking about (someone familiar with the product he's servicing, imagine that?! LOL!). I'm inclined to trust him on that one (unless future baking/cooking results indicate otherwise).

Re: pizza stone, he said NOT to place the stone on the floor of the oven, too much heat can build up underneath, and, I forgot the rest...! I didn't show him the stone we have (with the little ridge like "feet"), but I'd imagine it wouldn't make a difference.

I use a digital probe thermometer in my oven. It's handy and very responsive. It not only functions as a meat probe but also displays the temperature of the oven as well. You can program it to beep when the oven hits a 'set' temperature and also when your meat reaches a 'set' temperature.

I use it to double check my oven's sensor.

When I used the digital probe, the set temperature was higher than the display on the oven. I just hang it dangling in the middle of the oven. Is that what you did Mcmann? Do I have a problem?

Customer service at Dacor told me that when the oven beeps, it means that the oven has reached the temperature & I should just put my cake in. Why don't I trust him? And yes, the computer average the temperature.

I have gotten the Wolf 30" double ovens. During the preheat and cool down the ovens make a horrible popping noise. It is so loud it scares guests. Has anyone else experienced this?

Also I was excited about having consistent temperatures which was what the sales rep told us. I am finding all my recipes take longer and it is very hard to gauge how long to cook things. A fudge pie I have made for 35 years takes 3 to 5 minutes longer in the new Wolf ovens. Casseroles are taking a lot longer than the recommended recipe times. I am using the regular bake mode. Any thoughts?

Also the manual says to do meringue on broil. I am a southern cook and meringue pies are part of our cooking. I have never broiled meringue. When I tried it the regular way, bake mode in the oven I had to cook it so long to get it to brown that the filling overcooked. Help!