"...I couldn't pass up a chance to riff with fatplant..." That was why I asked what I was missing. Although I've heard a lot of info that I've disagreed with over the years from others, I was baffled at what you were saying. It didn't sound at all like you! ;~) "...my whole family is saddened by the very visible effects logging has on our community." ' I, too, have been horrified at the logging going on around me! :~( It was all but shut down, until 'shrub' campained his "Healthy Forests" scam up here. I can be arrested if I collect Cyps, Darlingtonias, etc, but it's acceptable to run over them with a Caterpillar! Virtually all of the fishing streams are protect from fishing, but it's fine to fill them with silt from the logging runoff. It's all being sent to Japan anyway and doing the locals no good, especially in the long run. It's like trying to protect the "Golden Goose" and being out voted by the other geese!:~( "I collect natives for my personal collection and for conservation." Good for you!! :~) I have no problems with responsible stewardship! Someone has to do it. Most of the horror seems to come from those that are just professional protesters and don't actually do much. You do know that 'shrub' has added mining, officially, to the list of forest activities. I'd rather have logging any day!;~) If you're interested, I added a link to a set of photos of my local SW Oregon natives that I've found. Here is a link that might be useful: Native Orchids/Plants

I haven't grown either Altissimo or Royal Sunset, so I'm afraid that doesn't help me. I grow a lot of Tea-Noisettes, plus things like New Dawn, Awakening, Casino, Aloha, Abe Darby, Pierre de Ronsard and a few ramblers. I'm trying to decide whether to put Royal America on a pillar, or sharing a fence between Constance Spry and Zephy. Decisions, decisions.....

Maybe it is easy to stick a label on not only regulations but even ideas. And 'socialism' seems to be the word of the moment. It does feel like we are edging to socialism, with the government bailing out the financial district, auto companies, and national health. And, we have to wonder if the deregulation was put in to play in order for those systems to fail and allow being at least partially taken over by the government. ladytexan, speaking of clothing..I worked at a factory that sewed clothing. The same cloth, the same pattern, was cut and sewed and different labels were put on according to which retail the garments were being sent. Sometimes the variant was the color, and occasionally the cloth itself was varied. But the MAIN difference was where the garment was being sent, ie Dillards or Kmart. There is nothing wrong with gun control. Guns should be registered and a process for acquiring one should include a background check. However, if law abiding citizens are not allowed guns, then only the criminals and police/army will have them. Allowing citizens to have guns is to keep from any military governmental state of control. If we could get our 2 party system, along with the few Independents, to quit pointing foul at each other and to instead focus on what is right for America we would not be in our current state of events. trianglejohn, I agree with a lot of what you posted. However, it is not only those who had a lot and have lost it that are feeling the crunch. Middle America has been the backbone of this country and with job outsourcing to other countries along with green carders coming in to take tech jobs and illegal immigrants not only taking jobs but robbing America of its social and medical services; Middle Americans are getting squeezed out. My husband will be losing his job (along with all other workers there) in the spring of 2009. At 61 he has worked hard and we have been preparing for retirement - now he is too young for social security and medicare and too old to secure any other employment that might be available 'somewhere'. We have never been trendy in racing out for new cars, tvs, cell phones, blackberries, etc. It may sound like a 'doom and gloom' attitude, but I believe DH and I will be okay as long as a serious illness doesn't occur. And, I think we are much better off than many of the others who hadn't been trying to prepare for retirement. I am just not sure how many people are going to be able to sit tight and ride it out.

My earliest US ancestor came from Wales to the Virginia Colony on the SW side of Chesapeake Bay in ca 1735. From there, with the Dodson(s), they removed ca 1750 to what is now Pittsylvania Co, VA. My ancestor established a 420 acre plantation. I suppose his reason for coming to the colonies was agricultural, and a chance to acquire land. My Franklin ancestor (of my Dad's Mother) came to the colonies for a very different reason. He lived in Acton, England and saw his father hanged for being a Presbyterian. He made up his mind that Acton was not the place for him and left for the colonies hoping to establish a life for himself and wife and children. They were literally penniless upon arrival. They arrived in Boston in the 1700s. He first tried making a living with candle making and found that was not adequate. During the Rev. war, a British Officer brought a wounded conscript Scotsman, Hugh McCoy, to the house of my Franklins (who were now in New Jersey) to recuperate. Hugh McCoy did recover, caught the eye of his benefactor's daughter, and refused to sign up again when his term expired. Daughter and Hugh marries and Hugh now stays in contact with his new family. (This is the only Scot that I can verify in my line.) Near the end of the Revolutionary War, my Franklins, and Hugh McCoy, removed to Burke Co, NC using land warrants from the French and Indian Was and the Revolutionary War to buy land in N.C. After 6 children were birthed, Hugh supposed that he had some property coming to him in Scot,and. He takes passage on a ship. He and the ship is never heard from again. It is supposed the ship was lost at sea. These Franklins move through Boone Gap into Kentucky and thence onward to settle in Franklin Co. TN. One of Hugh's children married a John Brown. It is this couple who came to Illinois in 1828 when the southern portion of Illinois opened for settlement. They produced my Grandmother.