btus - any faq around here?

hydrangea_2008

15 years ago

Hi,

I am in the process of planning a kitchen remodel and am finding great data here. Thanks.

My main purchase(s) in my kitchen (though it's a total remodel) is , the range and hood. I am wondering if there is any good FAQ on BTUs floating around.

I cook a lot of vegetarian food on a bad downdraft cooktop now - and pretty much any good range will be an improvement. In terms of functionality I like both the wolf and bluestar. However - I see many brands here being discussed where even higher BTUs (> 22000) seem to be the norm.

I dislike mushy mushrooms in my stirfry (and I sure would love to do one step cooking rather then the multi step process I now do to prevent having water logged food).

But - is there any FAQ on what BTUs are required for various kinds on cooking? Like - if I were trying to stir fry green beans and mushrooms without the mushrooms becoming mush - would 18,000 suffice - or is 22,000 a must?

While I know I *could* get higher and higher BTUs - I'd like my kitchen to be driven by my requirements.

And - I have already read the range hood faq - which was incredibly informative.

Thanks much!

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Comments (23)

amirm
15 years ago
No FAQ. Maybe someone should create one.

Simple rule is that 15K BTU is good enough for most things. But when it comes to stirfry, it is not close to being enough. Commercial units are 50-100K BTUs if not more. They sound like a blow torch!

I don't think 18K BTU makes that much of a difference. But Bluestar with its lower cooking level and 22K, does seem to take cooking to the next level.

Note that you can always turn the heat down but you can't go past the maximum. So if BS units meet your requirement, I highly recommend getting them (or high power Induction). You won't regret it.
clinresga
15 years ago
More BTU's are hotter. Everything else is relative.

Residential ranges are limited in output mainly to allow zero clearance installations in a typical kitchen. You state that "I see many brands here being discussed where even higher BTUs (> 22000) seem to be the norm." I don't know which ones you are referring to. The highest residential output I am aware of is the 22K high output burner on the Bluestar.

Regarding the merits of 15 vs 18 vs 22K: I'm not sure on what basis amirm can say that adding 3K more BTU's to a 15K burner "doesn't make that much of a difference," but adding 4K to an 18K burner "takes cooking to the next level." Lower cooking height also helps, but other ranges with 18K burners also have the ability to drop a wok down close to burner level too (admittedly I'm a Lacanche fanboy).

I can say from personal experience with a Dacor 15K cooktop that 15K is good for searing, and adequate for stirfrying, given enough patience to allow the wok/pan to preheat. There are times when I wish I had just a bit more heat, but that's a slippery slope. I'll soon know if the extra 3K makes a difference when the Lacanche arrives.

Remember that BTU's are only one part of the equation when evaluating ranges. Wolf, for example, maxes out at 16K if you choose open burners, 15K with closed, and lots of folks are very happy with the performance. Bluestar is popular on GW, in great part for the 22K star burner, but (forgive my bias) it's an ugly duckling next to a Lacanche or Cornufe. It is just a question of personal taste: do you want the "commercial kitchen" look, or a range that makes an aesthetic statement on its own?

amirm is right that commercial ranges are in another league altogether, even vs the BS. I'm not so sure though about the 100K claim (a single 100K burner? Seems like it would melt down). The Vulcan GH6S, for example, has six 30K burners. The Garland X36-6R runs six 30K's as well.
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Questions to be placed into the FAQ
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Well, OD, you didn't answer. May I post a polished version anyway? First, restate the subject as a question: How do I calculate the costs of running a greenhouse? Answer: The question is best answered by using an example, but first some formulas: Watts=amps*volts 1 KWH = 3,413 BTU 1500W electric heater produces 5120BTU Propane is 91,600BTU/gallon Q=deltaT*A/R Q=BTU heat requirement per hour delta T is the difference between outside temp and desired inside temp A= the surface are of the greenhouse is square feet, not including the floor; ie, the roof, side walls, and end walls R= the R value of the glazing Two important points about this last formula...some heating calculators use "heat loss value" (HLV) instead of R-value. Don't get confused, the HLV is just 1/R. The formula using heat loss value is then Q=deltaT*A*HLV. The other important point is that you use a different temperature when calculating your average energy costs over a month than you do when you you calculate what size heater you need. Heater calculations are used to determine how much heat you will need on the coldest night of the year. For this, you use your coldest winter temps, for example the colder end of your zone. For calculating heating costs you need the average temperature for the month. Here are some typical R-values for common glazings or coverings: 4 mil polyethylene 0.83; 4 mm (5/32") twinwall polycarbonate 1.43; 6 mil polyethylene 0.87; 6 mm (1/4") twinwall polycarbonate 1.54; 6 mil poly double layer (inflated) 1.43; 11 mil woven polyethylene 0.95; 3 mm (1/8") glass (single layer) 0.88; 16 mm (5/8") triplewall polycarbonate 2.5; Polycarbonate/fiberglass (single layer) 0.83 OK, let's say we are contemplating an ACF 10 x 12 Cottage Greenhouse. We first need to calculate the surface area of the greenhouse. Using the diminsions found on the website and some simple geometry, we calculate the surface area of each sidewall to be 55 sq ft, each roof side to be 64.6 sq ft, and each end wall to be 75 sq ft. Therefore the total area (A) is sq ft is (55*2)+(64.6*2)+(75*2)=389.2 sq ft. The website tells us that this GH comes in 6mm twinwall polycarbonate, so the R-value is 1.54. A quick search shows that in this particular zone 7a, the average January temperature to be 28.4 degrees. We want to keep our greenhouse at 50 degrees. So the "delta T" is 50-28.4=21.6 degrees. Now we can calculate the BTU per hour necessary to heat the greenhouse in January. Q=deltaT*A/R. Substituting the numbers, Q=389.2*21.6/1.54=5459 BTU. To figure daily use, multiply by 24 hours to get 131016 BTU/day. To figure monthly use, multiply again by 30 (days in the month) to get 3,930,480 BTU/month. Now, lets say we heat with propane. Knowing the BTU in a gallon of propane, we can take our BTU/month and divide by the number of BTU in a gallon of propane. 3,930,480/91,600BTU/gal propane to get 42.9 gallons of propane we would expect to burn in January. We just bought propane at $1.69/gal, so this would mean my January cost would be 42.6*$1.69=$72.52/month. Let's say we heat with electric. Take the same BTU value and instead of dividing by the BTU/gallon of propane, divide by BTU/KWH. 3,930,480/3413BTU per KWH=1151KWH. If my energy cost is 7.169cents/KWH, then heating electric should cost about $82.52 for the month of January. OK, well, our hypothetical DW says that the winter costs are too high and she cannot be convinced to go ahead with the greenhouse. Let's look at what we can do to lower the winter costs. Let's insulate the north wall...no sun comes through this wall, and if we insulate it with foil-backed polyisocyanurate 1" board, which has an R-value of 7.04, we raise the R-value of the north wall to 1.54+7.04=8.58. We can recalculate Q using the same formula, but adding together the BTU lost through the north wall and the BTU lost through the rest of the greenhouse. The formula would be Q=(deltaT*A/R)+(deltaT*A/R). Our greenhouse is oriented north-south, so the north wall is an end wall with a square footage of 55 sq ft. Our BTU formula changes: Q = (334.2*21.6/1.54) + (55*21.6/8.58) = 4826 BTU/hour This equals a monthly use of 3,474,720 BTU, equal to about $72.99/month heating electric. What else could we do? Well, we could add some thermal mass. Let's put 8 black 55 gallon drums in the greenhouse. One BTU is defined as the amount of heat required to raise one pound of water one degree F. The water will warm during the day and release this heat at night. One chap we know has measured the temperatures of his water at dawn and at dusk. The temp is 74F at dusk and 66F in the morning, a drop of 8F. Eight 55 gallon drums hold 440 gallons of water which is 3520 pounds of water. A 1F drop in the water temp releases 3520 BTU. An 8F drop releases 28120 BTU overnight. Over the course of a month, this is 844,800 BTU. Therefore, the total monthly BTU could hypothetically drop further to 3,474,720-844,800=2,629,920 BTU. This is 770.55KWH heating electric. At $0.07169/KWH, this is $55.24 for the month of January. Our calculations assume 100% efficiency. Some heaters, particularly vented heaters, are not 100% efficient. If you know the efficiency of your heater, you can adjust the calculations accordingly! Now on to summer costs. The greenhouse in the example will need an exhaust fan and HAF fans. First the exhaust fan. The greenhouse is 900 cubic feet in volume. Therefore, we need an exhaust fan that is rated at least 900 cfm. 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I apologize in advance, because this is going to be similary "unsupportive," but here goes ... What makes you so sure that what is going on here is that you are "excluded from many parties because [you are] a single, older woman"? Are you really being treated as a "leper"? Or just as a drag? You say you don't want a "pity invitation," but it sure sounds like you do. In fact, it sounds like you don't even mind not being included as much as not being asked. But how often do YOU invite THEM? Of course it's harder for one to entertain many than vice-versa, but it's not impossible, and you don't need to do anything fancy or as big or as frequently as they could do (if, for example, financial situations differ) -- just an effort to show you're a giver, not just a taker. Story 1: Many years ago, I had a single friend who used to complain frequently that married couples never include singles. I made a point of always inviting her to any party we gave, because I didn't want to be "treating her like a leper." It was a few years before I realized: SHE NEVER INVITED US out or over to her home -- not even once -- or even me separately. That's when I stopped inviting her to everything. Story 2: When my father-in-law died, my mother-in-law complained that the married couples ignored her. The other widows in her condo were wonderful about calling her, though, and she did lots of things with them -- until the instant she got a new boyfriend; then she dropped them all with blinding speed, and they soon stopped calling her, too. I thought to myself, "What goes around comes around -- she'd better hope he never dies." And now he has, and she would rather complain that "everyone excludes widows" than pick up the phone and call friends -- couples or singles -- and see if someone wants to go out or even just come over and watch TV. But why should they call her if she never calls them? Story 3: When my dad was in the later stages of Alzeheimer's, and then after he died, my mom made it a point to call her friends -- couples and singles -- and arrange evenings out a couple of times a week. Once a month, she gave a dinner party, mixing people who don't know each other well. She is CONSTANTLY busy, and she doesn't keep track of who invited whom -- but I know there are plenty of invitations and calls both ways. She is the most popular person I know, with both couples and singles of all ages. Story 4: My husband and I took a page from her book and give parties now, too. Our guests include singles and couples, old and young -- the more of a mix, the better, in fact. The sole criterion is who would help make the conversation good. Ergo: fascinating, friendly single people are prized guests; selfish, boring couples are out. It's not just parties, either -- I call both couples and singles when it's time for a movie or dinner or whatever. Do you see the point I'm getting at? People invite guests who are fun and interesting, and who reciprocate hospitality. Single or couples -- doesn't matter. Being single is no excuse for expecting always to be the invitee, for whining that you're being ignored, or for imposing guilt. Married people who commit these social sins soon find themselves "treated like lepers," too -- so don't assume that if you are lonely it is because others are cruelly excluding you because of your single status. Ask yourself honestly who YOU would rather include: someone who calls you once in a while him/herself, and who is a cheerful, low-mainenance guest when you do the inviting ("Sounds like fun! What can I bring? And do you want to go for coffee before then?"), or someone who answers the phone, "Oh, I haven't heard from you in ages. I thought you forgot about me. No, of course I'm free this weekend -- as usual, I'd just sitting here alone. Well, if you can get a ride for me, I guess I can try to come ... will you be serving anything I can eat?" You say, "I don't know anybody else who doesn't already have plans, so I can't start my own party." That's not a function of being single, it's a function of waiting until everyone else would have plans -- the same would happen if a couple waited too long to invite. Ditto transportation. I don't know if you are in a position to learn to drive, or if the distances are short enough to make an occasional cab practical, or not. But perhaps there would be a way to solve the transportation hurdle if that really is an obstacle, not an excuse. The phone works both ways, folks. The way to have a friend is to be one. Sorry for being so harsh, and for butting in where I may not be welcome, as I am not currently single. But we were all single once, and most of us will be again, willingly or not. I just wanted to offer "your married friend's point of view."
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weissman
15 years ago
Not to pick nits but Capital ranges have a 25K BTU burner and several companies like DCS sell dedicated 30K wok burners for home use.
clinresga
15 years ago
weissman: You're correct, I was speaking specifically of range burners, not wok burners. There are indeed 30K dedicated wok burners available. Didn't know if hydrangea was interested in such a single-purpose burner.

I was, however, not able to find reference to Capital 25K burners on their website. They describe their "phenomenal 19K PowerFlo burner", described as the "most efficient and powerful in its class" (something BS would take issue with), but I did not find any reference to a 25K burner on the site:

Capital Range
weissman
15 years ago
OK - if you look at the 30" range - I've linked it below - the center burner is 25K but if you look at the 36" or 48" range, you can acutally get a 30K burner (instead of a grill or griddle).

Here is a link that might be useful: Capital 30
amirm
15 years ago
'I'm not sure on what basis amirm can say that adding 3K more BTU's to a 15K burner "doesn't make that much of a difference," but adding 4K to an 18K burner "takes cooking to the next level."'

My comment was in regards to going from 15K to 22K as opposed to going from 15 to 18. BTU is as much of a marketing number as it is scientific. The shape of the flame relative to the cookware makes far more of a difference than the 20% going from 15 to 18. Indeed, I have seen 18K burners that seem to have less performance than 18. So be sure to check out the unit and not just go by paper specs.

"I'm not so sure though about the 100K claim (a single 100K burner? Seems like it would melt down). "

In commercial wok cooking, 100K for Wok is probably average. There are some that burn the skin from a mile away :). Here is a quick sample: http://www.therma-tek.com/wok_range.shtml

'One 135,000 BTU/hr jet burner per 18" wide
unit (Mandarin Wok).

One 100,000 BTU/hr 3-ring cast-iron burner per 18" wide unit (Tempura Wok).'

Not for faint of heart to be sure...
clinresga
15 years ago
amirm: Amen! Wouldn't trust myself with a 135K burner under any circumstances! Phenomenal performance though!

Totally agree with you that it's way too easy to buy into the notion that a single number (BTU, cfm, 1080p vs 720p, etc) can be used to rate equipment. It's the overall "gestalt" of the item, balanced against each individual's specific wants and needs that defines what is the best purchase.

weissman: You're correct for sure. Again, I was confining my comments to standard, not wok burners. Couldn't find the substitution option for the 30K burner but don't doubt your word. Thanks for the education!
PS: do you have a Capital? If so, what has your experience been with it?
weissman
15 years ago
If you go to the Capital pages for the 36", 48" or 60" range and click features they mention the 30K burner as an option.

No, I don't have a Capital - I have a DCS 30" 5 burner range with a 17.5K center burner. I've been very pleased with it and to be honest I really don't notice any difference between the side 16K burners and the 17.5K burner.

If I were looking now, Capital would definitely be on my short list.
kaseki
15 years ago
'One 135,000 BTU/hr jet burner per 18" wide
unit (Mandarin Wok).

One 100,000 BTU/hr 3-ring cast-iron burner per 18" wide unit (Tempura Wok).'

My 3500W Cooktek wok hob isn't even installed yet, and now it has BTU envy. Thanks amirm :)

kas
clinresga
15 years ago
I have this vision of all of us GW BTU addicts having our houses going up in flames simultaneously. You know you're in trouble when 3500W doesn't satisfy the craving :-)
evaperconti
15 years ago
I found a pretty decent website detailing how to size a range hood, it's got formulas and explains it all fairly well.

Here is a link that might be useful: CFM Requirements
hydrangea_2008
Original Author
15 years ago
Thanks for the responses. I have looked at the kitchen forum as well as other places on the net - and you can get BTUs higher than 22,000 (yes, with Blue Star, Capital, etc). At one point I was beginning to wonder whether it was just a marketing ploy :). Even for the most avid home cook (who does not have a home business involving food) - many of these pro ranges are pretty darn good - and yes, maybe that's so for just vegetarian cooking. I just want to learn the difference between what's real and what's just marketing.

And to answer clinresga - I really dont want the range to make any statement (that's why an Aga, lacanche, etc - wont go well for me). I want a super functional kitchen - with a lot of artistic touches (I'm planning several kinds of 3-form panels/glass tiles - for visual interest) - but nothing should detract from the view that I have (of lakes/mountains).

So a non 'statement making' - but powerful range would be ideal :). From what I see, Wolf AG would be as 'non statement making' as it gets ? I am now looking into induction as well - but then it starts getting to be induction cooktops + a wall oven mounted below, etc etc - which, for me, seems more trouble than it may be worth - but I'm still researching it.
amirm
15 years ago
Getting a wall oven is actually a very good thing. It gives you many other options. We are building a very high-end kitchen and are doing exactly that. So don't be turned off by that at all.

An induction cooktop will generate more BTUs than just about every gas cooktop for consumer use. The equiv. BTUs of a 3500 watt hob is in excess of 30,000 BTUs! This is why we are getting an induction hob and another for boiling things to augment our wolf. So you may want to look into that. Cooktek which was just mentioned makes a single induction hob to augment any gas unit.

As is evident from above, Wolf would not be sufficient to do a proper stirfy without things getting watery. So either you got Bluestar or get induction.
imwishing
15 years ago
Fivestar has a cooktop/range with 21,000 btu's across the brd- but i have not seem it in person - thermador also has a wok burner -
hydrangea_2008
Original Author
15 years ago
Amirm - Thanks for the data. I am looking at wall ovens. It is just that I have to fit a wall oven below the induction cooktop. Do you have the same situation in your home? I see that that's another whole new area to investigate (clearances versus what can be installed below an induction cooktop, etc).
Also - Diva seems to be coming out with it's first induction range this year - but boy it seems to be a budget breaker (over 9000$, I think)
amirm
15 years ago
Oh, didn't realize that is your only space. We have had a few threads here about putting the oven below the cooktop. I think the issue is one of ventilation and clearance and may be difficult to overcome. I agree Diva is not a practical solution due to high cost.

Can you then free up 16 inches on the side for a single induction wok? You lose a drawer, $1,600 and need a larger vent :).
weissman
15 years ago
>>>As is evident from above, Wolf would not be sufficient to do a proper stirfy without things getting watery. So either you got Bluestar or get induction.

I think Wolf owners would take exception to this statement :-). 15K burners on a home range is certainly more than adequate to stir fry as long as you're not cooking for an army!
amirm
15 years ago
"I think Wolf owners would take exception to this statement :-). 15K burners on a home range is certainly more than adequate to stir fry as long as you're not cooking for an army!"

No insult meant for anyone but we have a Viking with 15K burners and it is not even close to enough heat to properly stirfry. It is not a matter of quantity but the heat recovery. For the first 15 seconds things sizzle and then everything starts to get soggy. And this is with dividing the meat by thirds. If we put the whole portion in there, might as well make stew.

Mind you, you can cook things using stirfry method. But it won't be authentic or fast.
ya_think
15 years ago
For what it is worth Grace Young makes a point of claiming to get a nice authentic Wok Hay with run of the mill 14K BTU Kitchenaid. I would take her word for it over people who try to justify their need for a gazillion BTU's. Her pasta water might take a minute or two longer to come to a boil though.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Breath of a Wok
amirm
15 years ago
I have no problem with people dismissing my feedback if that is what you mean by your post. At the same time, there are no absolutes here. And people have different standards.

We are all here to share our experiences. I am not here to sell you a Chinese cookbook, telling you that you can duplicate what you eat at a commercial establishment at home. Nor do I have the credentials of Grace Young. So use the feedback for what it is worth taking into account that you are getting free advice so it may just be worth that much :).

We are however, are avid cooks and we are going through our second remodel (for a different house). The first upgrade to 15K BTU was a huge boost over the contractor grade gas cooktop. So let there be no doubt about that. And yes, we can smoke the wok and do OK creating "wok hay" on small amount of ingredients -- maybe. But for day in, day out cooking, 15K is merely adequate at best.

The kind of wok hay I experience at my favorite Asian restaurants is in an entirely different class than what we can recreate at home. As I post before, a 15K BTU cooktop is not even in the same planet as what is used in a commercial setting. Yes, they like speed in that environment. But when it comes to Chinese cooking, speed is recipe item #1. You canÂt let the ingredients stew in the sauce and expect to have the same thing come out as flash cooking on a high power cooktop.

Remember, it is easy to justify what you own. It is much harder to be critical of it :).
ya_think
15 years ago
Maybe Grace is single. I really do not know.
clinresga
15 years ago
I eat crow on GW with great regularity--see, for example, my posts on this thread, from which I received a gentle "reeducation" as to the highest BTU rating available in a residential range.

That's great. The value of GW forums is an interchange between folks with differing opinions. Each of us brings a different set of experiences to the table. amirm has clearly had a disappointing experience doing stir fry on a 15K burner. weissman clearly has had a different experience. Neither is wrong, and a thoughtful reader will take the information and come to his/her own conclusion.

What I think you need to be skeptical of is anyone who claims that there is only one "right" answer--even if that is based on the opinions of a purported expert. Especially since it's hard to sell a Chinese cookbook based on the premise that you can't duplicate commercial stir fry cooking unless you upgrade to a 30K BTU wok burner.

And finally, FWIW, I'm the son of Chinese immigrants, grew up with my mom's stir fry and ate out at Chinese restaurants twice a week, every week. I can't duplicate the restaurant cooking on my 15K BTU Dacor PGM cooktop and doubt our incoming Lacanche will either. If I were serious, I'd get an induction hob. But I'm not.
ya_think
15 years ago
I did not say there is only one right answer. I only meant to point out that a highly regarded author/cook/whatever noted that in her home she uses a 14K Kitchenaid.

The OP wanted to know if he/she can produce a good stir-fry on an 18K BTU range. I offer my opinion that if you cannot you may do better to invest in culinary classes before BTUs. If you can afford both all the better.

btus - any faq around here?

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