I would not let him continue with the job. If he is not doing what you ask him to, I could only imagine your frustrations and issues going forward. Adding too much water to cement is a "no-no" because it will lose most of its strength and tends to crumble when it has weight exerted on it. The whole situation sounds ridiculous to me. How could the tub sink when you mention there is a support frame around it? A bed is layed down, and then the tub gets dropped into the frame and "squished" down. Like a jelly donut, the cement squishes out as it is leveled and brought into contact with the support frame. The cement NEEDS to be used prior to the tub being set. You do not make a soupy mix and try and pour it underneath. Make him do what YOU want.

I found your first post. I would not let this guy continue. He is getting basic stuff wrong here. And that overflow is cocked out of level. There is too much work remaining on your job, I could not imagine what the tile work will look like.

Also, did he use thinset under the cement board on the floor?

tom_p_pa, the tub is sitting on the plywood. They only installed cement boards for the area where the vanity and toilet will be installed, but not under the tub.

The first picture shows the frame they built yesterday. It is only at the front of the tub, not on the other 3 sides where the tub interfaces with the walls.
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I also just found out a piece of cardboard underneath one of the support block of tub to level it. This can't be right, can it?
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formosalily, I have absolutely no expertise, but just wanted to offer you support. Doing a reno when you totally trust the workers is hard enough, i can't even imagine how difficult this is for you.

budge1, thank you so much for your support. I can't describe how helpless I feel right now......

If this contractor was only contracted to remodel our bathroom, I would not hesitate to ask them to leave the job the first time they made mistake.

However, this contractor has just worked with us on the demo, the floor, drywalls, painting, windows replacement in our kitchen and they did a fine job, which is why we contracted them to work on the bathroom and then later the roof and skylights. Because of this, I don't know how the other projects will be impacted if this bathroom project ends ugly. If they are still to do other jobs, I need them to continue to do a quality job. I don't want to get them upset and run the risk of their trying to get back to us by intentionally not doing future jobs properly.

But we can't risk having the bathroom done wrong either. What makes things worse is that DH and I are both no experts in bathroom remodeling ...all that we can do is to research info on line and rely on the replies from other experts on the forum.

Feeling so helpless is making me sick ....

Was thinset used under the cement board outside the tub area...that is what I was referring to.

They should be using wood shims under the tub legs, not ratty old folded up cardboard? The shims should be secured to the floor so they do not move around.

The frame should be on all sides of the tub. I have never installed an acrylic tub in which the manufacturer did not require support on ALL sides of the tub. The tub flange on all 4 sides and the base are used for support. Go on line and find the manufacturer installation instructions, or if you have the original hard copy that came with the tub, read. He may have expertise with other jobs, but that does not him a professional with bathrooms.

You are crazy to hire him. Come on now? Are you going to babysit him and redo every step along the way? He already chipped your tub with redo's. Next he will botch up the tile work, and good luck getting that redone...try chipping and pulling that work down off your walls and floor. What about the plumbing, I would not trust him for anything. I cannot believe the put the cement board behind the flange like that. He has NO CLUE WHAT HE IS DOING. I would not want my bathroom to be an experiment for him to learn on. Learning is fine, but only one you are with an experienced tradesperson to show you.

DO NOT UNDER ESTIMATE THE EXPERIENCE AND CRAFTSMANSHIP REQUIRED TO PROPERLY INSTALL A BATHROOM THE CORRECT WAY THE FIRST TIME. There are many contractors willing to do everything they can get there hands on. This is often not the best way.

tom_p_pa, I didn't see how they installed the cement board. Since the cement boards can be screwed to the subfloor, it is possible that they did NOT use thinset underneath the cement boards. Should I be concerned about the lack of thinset between the cement board and the plywood subfloor? What could be the consequence?

Thanks for your help!

Lily,

We're back to square one. Same as with the old thread.

The tar paper need to lap over the tub flange. It's not.

The tub needs to be set on a 2x4 ledger that is secured to the wall studs on the three walled sides. It's not.

The tub, ACCORDING TO THE TUB MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS, needs to be installed in a bed of mortar or secured to the subfloor with construction adhesive. It's not.

Your GC saying that cured mortar will sink and that cured foam will not? That foam will provide a more substantial base than foam? That he knows better than Kohler? If I could type "hell" on this forum, I'd write "what the hell is he thinking" but since I can't I'll write "you've got to be kidding me!"

Cement board screwed to the subfloor needs to be bedded in thinset. Thinset is first troweled on the subfloor, then the cement board is placed and screwed through the thinset and into the subfloor. The thinset is not to adhere the cement board to the subfloor, that's what the screws do. The thinset acts as a void-filler, filling the tiny gaps between the cement board and the subfloor, this prevents the cement board from flexing. If thinset is not used, then the cement board will flex and over time your tiles/grout can crack.

And yes, using thinset is how the cement board is installed IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS. It's not an extravagance. It's a requirement.

Your GC needs to get with the program. He's so far off base.

A bit of forum advice, try to not start any new threads, try to keep the entire discussion under one title. It makes it easier for us to give you proper advice.

Oh, the niche. Make sure they install that in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions as well. Make sure they properly water proof it.

Realize some guys lead you down their version of the yellow brick road, step by step.

"Oh, you dont need that." So you let them omit "that" and you find a flaw with their methods. SO they say "we'll fix that with this afterwards." They install "this" but it still doesn;t seem quite right to you. So you ask them again, and he generously offers, at no cost to you, to come back and add three cents worth of "something else."

Well, "something else" gets put in and your installation still has shortcomings. So now he drops the bomshell:

"What, you want me to tear it all out? It'll cost you."

And it very well may, as you've okayed his band-aid remedies all throughout the process.

You have some very simple and basic questions to ask this guy:

1) Whay aren't you building this according to code?
2) Why aren't you installing the materials in accordance with the manufacuter's installation instructions?

Mongo

Mongo, thanks a lot for your advice! You are right, we are back to square one. I wrote an email to the contractor this morning and told them that I don't want the project to be continued until all issues are fixed. Then I got a phone call from the company owner saying that he will have everything done as I want.

However, my concern now is: how are they going to be able to fix everything without making further damages to the tub and the plumbing fixture which have been installed?

About the niche, they nailed the niche to the framing, then put the tar paper over, then the cement board, then cut the hole in the cement board. Is what they did enough to water proof the niche, or did they miss something again?

Mongo, do they need to use any special kind of cement or mortar for the base bed? My electrician whose brother-in-law is a plumber said he saw his brother-in-law using a kind of cement with styrofoam kind of stuff mixed in for installing bathtub. Are you aware of this type of material?

Also, can the standard drywall be used for bathroom ceiling or should the green board be used instead?

Thanks again for your help, Mongo.

Wow...you are a glutten for punishment. I agree with the other posters...why do you keep dealing with this guy...?? He has no clue. Please do not post Part III when you complain other things are incorrect. You were forewarned. No framing around a tub, and the way the cement board was installed?? Shame on him. And more so on you for continuing with him.

The cement board installation on the walls would have been it for me, I would have sent him PACKING.

"...how are they going to be able to fix everything without making further damages to the tub and the plumbing..."

That I don't know. It depends on how good they are and how much care they put into making the repairs.

"About the niche, they nailed the niche to the framing, then put the tar paper over, then the cement board, then cut the hole in the cement board. Is what they did enough to water proof the niche, or did they miss something again?"

Depends on the niche. Who made it, what material it's made from, and can you even fathom that I'm going to mention this again, if it was installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions. SOme niches can be nailed through the flange, some adhered with adhesive to the framing. Most require the flange to be adhered to the cement board with adhesive of some sort, it acts as an adhesive and as a sealer. Some require a thinset and tape to secure the lip to the cement board. Some required a topical liquid membrane (like RedGuard) to be used.

I scratch-build most of my niches, so to get specific instructions on how yours should be detailed find out what type of niche was installed, then do some on-line sleuthing. Most manufacturers have on-line pdf installation available documents for your viewing pleasure.

"Mongo, do they need to use any special kind of cement or mortar for the base bed? My electrician whose brother-in-law is a plumber said he saw his brother-in-law using a kind of cement with styrofoam kind of stuff mixed in for installing bathtub. Are you aware of this type of material?"

That sounds like a lightweight mortar, the aggregate is a vermiculite-type material. They can use any type of mortar. Bagged Quikrete, or site mixed sand and portland cement. No lime added. But again, nothing with aggregate (stone) in it. Think MORTAR (sand an portland cement), not CONCRETE (sand, portland and stone).

"Also, can the standard drywall be used for bathroom ceiling or should the green board be used instead?"

Standard drywall is okay. Although some may object, I honestly don't have a problem with that as long as it meets your local code and long as you have good ventilation in the tub area and the ceiling is not going to be tiled. If tiling, then use cement backer board.

If going with greenboard, due to the additives in the gypsum core it tends to sag more than regular drywall, so it has to be installed on framing that is a maximum of 12" on center. Furring strips, installed perpendicular to the existing framing, can be installed to get that spacing.

Good luck!

Mongo

Thanks for your detailed explanation, Mongo.

I appreciate all the feedback, and I understand how some people would think we are to be blamed for the problems we have. If it is as simple as getting another contractor to work on our bathroom, I would have done that already. It is not my character to tolerate incompetent contractors. But as I explained before, we still have other projects to be completed by this contractor, and my goal is to do whatever to get existing issues fixed without causing complications to other projects.

I wish it could have been as easy as to just ask them to pack and leave right now, right there..... without having to worry about having to see them back again working on the other parts of our house.

Lily, I said it before, and I'll say it again. Send this guy packing. Screw what the owner says, promising to put everything right. They've had two chances now, and they're STILL telling you you don't know what you're talking about. Get an estimate to fix what's been screwed up so far, and pay the guy for what he's done, minus what it'll cost to fix it, and be done with him.

Bill and Mongo, do you know of any professional and reliable bathroom remodeling contractor in Chicagoland (we are in west suburbs in DuPage county) that you could recommend?

Thank you.

Lily, I'm in CT.

You may be able to get a lead off the John Bridge forum.

Bill is well connected. See what he says.

Best, Mongo

There are atleast two contractors I know of over in John Bridge's forum from your area. You might post over there in the Pro's Hangout forum.

Here is a link that might be useful: John Bridge's Pros Hangout

What a minute!

I'll be outside of Milwaukee the week of July 16th, get me tickets to the Red Sox vs White Sox game and a big bag of peanuts, and maybe we can work a little something out!

Mongo

Mongo, are you serious? Is there any Red Sox vs White Sox game in Chicago during that week? Neither game tickets nor peanut is a problem....but unfortunately the timing is.

My parents are coming to visit us on July 3rd and we are trying to get the bathroom done before that if at all possible. Are you open to traveling to Chicago this week? (Sorry, I know this is too much to ask but I thought I would at least try.....)

Three or four games of Sox vs Sox starts on the 19th.

I'm busier than the proverbial beaver from now until the proposed trip to MKE, as I try to take 6-8 weeks off during summer to travel and hang with the kids.

Mongo,

I looked the Sox vs Sox games up and found the games beginning on the 19th are to take place in Boston. The Sox vs Sox games staring on Aug. 23rd will be in Chicago though. Which location do you prefer? (You've been very helpful to me and I will get you the tickets even if you don't work on our projects.)

While it is still our goal to get the project done by next week, we are prepared for the worst in case we just couldn't find the right contractor to finish our project. If you will be in MKE for sure during the week of July 16th and our projects can't be done by next week, I would love to keep it an option to work something out with you. Please let me know.

Thanks.

You have to stop them from doing further damage to your home. I know it is hard. I have been through it twice in the past couple months during the remodel...and one guy I told to leave was a distant (unrelated) family member. I lost thousands of dollars because of his errors. If I had let him continue I would have lost thousands more. Now I am going through it with the guy who made my kitchen counters. I am having to research concrete counters to see if he did it right because I dont trust him now. He put them in last week, and the sink is not centered on the cabinet, the seams are awful, there are deep tiny holes all over the surface, etc. The gc looked at his work and agreed and tomorrow we are going to speak with him. I hope it can be resolved because I have already paid him a substantial amt. of money. I know what you are going through, and I know how hard it is to confront someone whom you have built a relationship with , but you have to. You are paying them to do a job and to do it right.

There a too many unqualified contractors running around. Very unfortunate. Everyone needs to be very diligent in doing the research and "testing them" when you interview them during the bidding process. There are many books and websites you can learn from. As well as reading the manufacturers installation instructions. You also need to maintain financial leverage which means you need to hold back a percentage until the "final inspection." Any payments along the way need to be based upon your inspection and full satisfaction. And you need to have a detailed scope of work. I have seen many contracts that say, "Install a new bathroom," along with a price. This does not cut it.

The games are in Boston! Now that's what I get for listening to my father-in-law, I should have peaked at the schedule myself.

Lily, it's kind of you to offer tickets, but I'll decline. No compensation is neccessary.

It wouldn't be feasible for me to do the job, as I'll have no tools with me and my time out there would be insufficient.

Mongo

Mongo, thanks for offering the possibility to work something out with us still. I truly appreciate the help you've offered to me so far.

jennye, sorry to hear that you have similar awful experience with your contractor. A colleague at work told me that she had a disaster caused by the contractor who did her addition initially, which caused her a lot more than it should have, and she now has to go to court to deal with this whole mess (her house now has lien because that contractor did pay the subcontrators.)

Hi,

Just want to share with you that I am in the midst of the same problem. I had a Sterling ensemble installed last week. At the end of the installation day, I get into the tub and it's creaky. GC tells me this will eventually settle...guaranteed. Then I come to find that they did not install a small felt mat that comes with the product and supposedly reduces "squeaks".

So after a few days of putting up with the creaks I contact the GC. He suggests we use foam in a can. Hold on though. By this point I'm doing my homework on the web and tell him flat out that is a no-go. He says he'll call Sterling, then calls me back and happily announces that the tub needs some time to settle. Now I'm
getting a little antsy. So I call Sterling and they say any settling should be minor and occurs in the first couple of days. Well, with 5 people using the shower the past week I can assume that we are past the breaking-in phase...and it's still creaking.

After some badgering, the GC and plumber have agreed to come back and somehow get the mat under there. But he does not think this will work. However, he says he will not puddle mortar under the tub because this is not a structurally sound thing to do on a second floor bath. So what I think I'm hearing is that they will somehow elevate the tub slightly, get the mat under there, and if it still creaks, then it's a manufacturer defect, not them. Boy, am I looking forward to Monday. I guess all I can hope for is that the little mat stops the creaking. Gee, maybe it has something to do with an un-level subfloor, but what the heck do I know. )-:

At this point, I'll probably just cut my losses and have someone else do it if Monday turns as I think it will.

I feel better after this rant.

Let me put it to you this way-- the GC is the one you hand the check to, so he's the one who's responsible to you. If, after all this, you're still having problems, and he tries to say it's a manufacturer's defect, that's all well and good. Get a manufacturer's rep out here. Now.

No matter WHOSE fault it is, it's not up to you to pay for substandeard installation or a faulty product, no matter which it is.

Hey Lily-- check your email-- Someone from John's site right there in your town answered you.

Thanks Bill. Because we are pressing for time, we've got someone to complete our project.

But we still have two other bathrooms that are to remodeled later. I will contact him for future jobs.

Wanted to post another follow-up to let off some steam.

The GC and plumber were not able to make it this week. They will be coming next Thursday (that will be close to 4 weeks since installation). Well, over the phone I bring up the topic of cement mortar with the GC again and he says because my house is 25 years old and has 2 by 8 joists instead of 2 by 10's he believes that the cement mortar will cause the sub-floor to be structurally unsound.

Now I'm no physicist, but what happens if my stout cousin Anthony who weighs 250 lbs as opposed to my rather diminutive 170 lbs wants to use the tub? Is that also structurally unsound?

So the GC says that he his willing to put in the cement mortar but can't be held responsible for the results. Am I hearing this right? What is wrong with laying down a 2" coating of cement mortar on a sub-floor? Oh, and he also let me know that they had to cut a square foot off the front when they installed the tub because the drain would not fit. Can this have anything to do with his reluctance to lay down cement mortar? Am I suddenly going to have a Three Stooges moment one day while showering? (E.g. me and tub join the family downstairs for breakfast).

I am having a home inspector come by Monday before the GC shows up to get his input.

By the way, here is the youtube link to me walking in the tub:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc7oS0U1Q6Y

Feel better now.

Here is a link that might be useful: youtube creaky tub

That's unbelieveable!! Your GC expected you to accept it like that?????

I'm not going to say any more. the inspector will do it for me. Holy Christmas!!

Not a good comparison, as Three Stooges knew what they were doing all along, and they did it quite well.

Excuses excuses.

Too bad it's already tiled in. I would have had them pull it and install it correctly from scratch. It's the only way to do it right, as everything else from here on out will be a cobbled together compromise.

Best, Mongo

Actually, it's not tiled in. The walls surrounding it are part of the ensemble and can be easily removed. I will be having a full reinstall done, not sure if I will use them or somebody else. Don't have too much faith in them at this point.

"not sure if I will use them or somebody else"

You got to be kidding????? You would even consider them?
Hire someone else.

If such basic procedures are getting botched up, what is next. How can you trust them with other more complicate procedures? Is this crack pot also doing the wiring?

I really feel sorry for everyone with these problems.

Well, had a master plumber come today...let's just say he was a bit taken aback by the work done on my tub. Not only was he stunned that no cement mortar was laid down initially, but he was SHOCKED about how much of the sub-floor they removed up front to make way for the Kohler drain. In a nutshell, the new plumber says I have to have the sub-floor at least partially rebuilt before he can do a re-install. So, needless to say, I will not have the guys who butchered it do it again. But I will send them the bill when this sorry episode is finally over. BTW, the master plumber was from roto-rooter, was very professional and knowledgable.

It's been almost a month and I wanted to follow up on this sorry episode. We had the tub taken out and reinstalled by a new plumber and carpenter. There were two problems they found when reinstalling:

1. Cement mortar should have been used because the underlying subfloor was not level.

2. A large hole was left in the subfloor near the drain that caused the floor to be unstable.

Anyway, the cement mortar was laid down and the subfloor fixed and everything is fine now.

I am in the process of trying to get a partial refund from the previous installers. They are claiming that they do not have to pay because I was supposed to let them try to remedy the situation in accordance with the 6 month warranty they provied. I have a feeling they may have me on that. But I did take pictures and video of the old install. I plan on starting with the BBB.