whenever an engineer creates something that is dummy-proof, Mother Nature creates a better dummy.

weedmeister...LOLOL!

jndsass...I have the KUDE60. Does it do panels or do you have to upgrade to the KUDE70 for that?
I don't have any experience with the Miele but the KA's third rack did have a little bit of a learning curve. There's multiple ways of loading the silverware, you just have to find what you're most comfortable with. I love it!
Not sure what you mean by "no organization" in the bottom rack. The space where the silverware basket goes (I don't use the basket) is NOT wasted. I've put deep and/or large bowls, square or rectangle pans, skillets and large cookie sheets in that space. The middle rack adjusts up and down. Mine is usually in the down position because of my taller drinking glasses. Yesterday, I raised it to accommodate two large cookie sheets and a large skillet in the bottom.
Monica

monicakm, How long have you had your KUDE60? Has it been trouble free?

I'm not intending to be rude, but here goes anyway. You need a better training program for your family, that's the real issue here. Anyone who would leave a DW open with a toddler around is asking for a catastrophe - how about the child taking out a plate and dropping it on the floor or worse! There need to be consequences for the husband and teens being LAZY and irresponsible. Getting a specific DW won't solve your problem.

Jndsass, the cutlery tray is removable in whatever Miele model even in the entry level G 2021 you haven't in North America. I'm pretty sure, cause one can buy a 2nd one, so that tray coming clean from the DW will fit in a 24" drawer, while the empty one will go into the DW

Also I'm with Dianne and I don't wanna be rude too.... but I'd buy hubby a shock collar powered by bluetooth devices on DW door, cabinet doors and drawers ... of course i'm kidding ;-)

There are full and split cutlery trays on Miele, according to model. Both are removeable. Years ago, though not recently, there were folks on the kitchen forum who bought extra trays and did a custom drawers for them. That wouldn't work for me but some people have many different sets and found them easy to store that way.

gwentm, MY KUDE60 was installed July 09 and no, no problems. I'm still extremely impressed with this appliance. More so than any other I've purchased.
Monica

I keep forgetting about the removable cutlery trays. They're removable on the KA too. And you can position them differently. I NEVER think about that feature! :o
Monica

I got the Miele Diamante Plus G2143SC installed last week.
So far I haven't had any problems with it and everything has come out clean.
Each rack is designed for different sized items.
For example, the bottom rack (on the left side) is where you place your large dinner dishes, but you can also place smaller plates and saucers there, and on the right side you can place bowls, but the tines also fold down if you need to place large skillets or pans. The middle rack is where you place most of your glasses/cups/mugs on the left or right side, but also there's a row for small bowls and small dishes. And then the 3rd rack at the very top is for silverware, which is easy to use as pretty much all sizes will fit. You can remove it on the Diamante, but it clips into place, so it's not really designed to be removed daily. The 3rd rack on the Optima (and higher) does have it designed differently with a split-rack where you can remove the left and right sides.

Regarding the quietness, we heard the Optima in the showroom and it was very quite, but we purchased the Diamante since it was $300 less ($1399). Now that we've had it a week, it sounds very very close to the Optima, maybe just a few percent difference in sound. But the Diamante is still quieter than the GE we had 4 years ago, and the Electrolux (41/42dB rating) that we had 2 years ago, which only lasted like 2 month and had 4 service calls.

So if we had to do it over again, we'd go with the Miele 4 years ago if we would have know about them at that time, since that's when the kitchen was remodeled, and we would have got the panel unit instead of the stainless.

Monicakm & Fauguy...How many people in your house?

Thanks for the comments on the family training...and yes, if my husband wasn't so awesome in so many other ways, i would use the shock collar on him! In fact, he does most of the cooking (yeah!) or I would ban him from the kitchen. We haven't lived in the house for month while it is being slooooowly remodled, so I'll he'll be on a strict training program when we return! Teenagers...what can i say...they are 13 & 14 and part of their prefrontal cortex has shut down...so far i have them loading their dishes, help clean up after dinner and taking turns unloading it. Was just trying to come up with one less thing to "work" on...ugggh

jndsass, two people in our home, BUT, I routinely have our two grandchildren over. How can two small people create ALL THOSE DIRTY DISHES!? LOL
And kudos to YOU for the way you handled the "family training" remarks! :)
Monica

jndsass,

It is a long known fact that there may be only one Dish Master in a given household.

Read this sacred text and be enlightened!

(As a side note, I have a Miele and find it easy to load even if guests use a "laissez-faire" loading style. Just pile them in and everything will come out clean. BUT we have to leave the door unlatched or the dishwasher will start to stink.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Dishwashers

jndsass:

It is just my mom and I here, but by the end of the day, the dishwasher is pretty full from breakfast (or lunch) and dinner. On Sat or Sun we normally have friends over for dinner, so there's more stuff in the dishwasher then.

As I've said, the Miele Diamante has only been in for a week, but the longer we use it the more we like it.

I have the KitchenAid KUDE70 model. I was able to get an employee discount so it was significantly cheaper than Miele for me.

The 3rd level cutlery tray does take some time to get used to. I took the regular silverware basket out right away when we got it. My family has never even seen it so they don't even know that is an option :) I love the 3rd level tray for ease of putting silverware in & out. Loading it isn't perfect for me. My dinner knives have chunky handles and they don't fit in any of the slots perfectly. We have come up with ways that work, but I still have to think about it and we've had the DW about 6 weeks now. I trained my family (hubby & 13 yr old son) right away that the silverware would not only go into the 3rd level tray but that it would go in sorted. teaspoons to in the top left, forks bottom left, dinner knives top right etc. Hubby got it right away. I made my 13 year old son resort if he did it wrong. I even called him out of bed to do it a few times. He learned pretty quickly..think it took about a week. Same with improper loading. I always make him redo stuff until I'm satisfied with it. I will give instruction but I make him physically do it. I think now he mostly has it down.

The middle rack where the glasses go in the KUDE70, I do not love. None of my glasses fit great in it. The raise & lower ability is nice, but I find the hardware to do it cuts into this rack...I'd especially like to have the flip down 2nd layer all the way down the sides of this rack.

Lower rack does not fit my taller dinner plates in the center location..I have to be careful to put them more on the sides. Cookie sheets do not fit unless I raise the middle rack to the upper position...but then my glasses don't fit. So, I now handwash cookie sheets.

Empty space where the silverware basket comes out is very useful for pots, casserole dishes etc.

Dishwasher loads feel smaller than my previous Maytag. I have to work harder to fit everything in.

This dw is so quiet that when it turns on, I can really only tell that it is running from hearing the gurgling in the pipes. It has a delay start but we almost never use it because running it right after dinner while we're still in the room isn't a problem.

Love, love, love the integrated custom panel. You can't even tell I have a DW. Make sure you get a panel made for the lower toe-kick area too.

I had the opportunity to own both an Optima and a KUDE60 in the past few months. My experience is detailed below but since you specifically asked about loading, I would say the KA is better for large loads. The racks are larger, hold more, hold thicker dishes better, and hold bowls better. The ''gap'' that you referred to is useful for casserole and baking dishes. However, the Miele silverware rack is infinitely better than the KA's rack, which it too small and requires a lot of fiddling around to load more than a few pieces of flatware, particularly if you have longish knives and forks.

Here is a link that might be useful: Optima vs. KUDE60

warmfridge,

I read through your post about the problem you had with the Miele Optima cleaning off dishes, but then redepositing the food particles all over. Thankfully I have not had the problem (or any problem) in the 10 days I've now owned the Miele Diamante Plus. At the end of the night we run the unit (have used the Post & Pans, Normal, and SaniWash programs so far) and have not had any food left anywhere in the dishwasher. From the 3rd rack to the bottom rack everything has come out spotless. We use the Cascade Complete with Dawn powder-packs (not sure of the exact name) and the Cascade Rinse Aid.

If my unit did like yours and not clean properly, or redeposited food particles all over, I'd be upset too. At least you were able to have it returned and now your relatively happy with the KA since it doesn't have that problem from the Optima.

On the other hand, I have had issues with KA, so did not want a KA dishwasher. The KA 5/8H.P. garbage disposal went out after 14 months and KA didn't want to replace it, even through it had a 4-year warranty and the service guy they sent out said it had to be replaced. So it took 6 weeks for KA to finally agree to replace it and sent out a 3/4H.P. unit. Then about 2 years after having the KA fridge (KSCS25FS) the ice maker would jam-up and ice would get caught in the marker and stop it. At least we had an extended warranty through the local store (BrandsMart) and they came out and fixed it (replaced the ice maker unit). So after those 2 issues, we didn't want a KA dishwasher that might have problems too. We went through a GE dishwasher in about 16 months that had 6-8 service calls, and then an Electrolux dishwasher that had 3 service calls in a month (returned it back to Lowes). That's why we 'spent more than we wanted to' but went with the Miele Diamante because of the reported quality. So far I have not been disappointed.