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2013 Miele diamond & dimension dishwasher questions

markdavis
8 years ago

My primary use is for regular dishes with a special focus on high-end wine glassware - Zalto - better than Riedel in my humble opinion. Lead-free, hand-blown. Love um. They recommend a dishwasher and so that is what we'll start doing.

One of the key changes between the 2012 and 2013 is that the Dimension (5605) now has the door open dry capability. At this point, the main differences appear to be the interior lights, extra programs - 2 specific to glassware, 6 vs. 4 glass lower rack (for my large red burg glasses), auto-close (what use is this?), auto-load size sensor, front display, and $950.

(I wanted to add for completeness that the older dimension plus models also has auto-open)

My thought was to buy the G 5605 SC Dimension and the lower basket (flex care deluxe) from the G 5915 SCi Diamond. I get all the glassware items with only (for me) minor deltas, which are not worth $950. What do you think of this strategy??

But I still have questions:

1. What is the difference between the china/crystal program that is part of the basic 6 (dimension) vs. the 2 extra "glass" no rinse aid programs that come with the diamond (one for hot water, one for cold?) Presumably, if no rinse aid is required, it would be part of the china/crystal program

2. What is the part # for the diamond lower basket? Not the utensil basket, but the entire lower part with wheels? I really like the ability to put 6 large glasses down there...

3. Can I actually get the glassware baskets from the profline -- will the sprayers work properly with it? I guess that is another option for the smaller glasses.

4. Has anyone tweaked the programming? What is programmable? I know that when I purchased my 4840 washer, I did have the programming tweaked considerably in 2009 which reminds me - need to check for a firmware upgrade.

5. Does anyone utilize the RemoteVision option? I am wondering if it can update firmware?? Does it support WPA2 encryption for wifi, or is it stuck in the past with WEP?

6. What detergent are you folks using in these?

Really appreciate the help. I have searched the archives (and emailed Miele customer support with no response), but I haven't found these answers.

PS. Looked at the Bosch 800 series today as well...didn't think the racks would work with my glassware, and they seemed a lot more flimsy to me. I suspect Miele started to 'waterfall' features from Diamond to Dimension as a way to compete with threats from Bosch??

Thanks, -mark

This post was edited by markdavis on Fri, Dec 27, 13 at 20:46

Comments (48)

  • deeageaux
    8 years ago

    I will give you the answers I know and let the others answer the balance.

    Perfect Glasscare is even gentler than China and Crystal setting not because of temperature but water hardness level. According to Miele, soft water is perfect for cleaning but can damage glass over the long term. So it allows some unsoftened water to enter under the Glass setting. Unlike China presumably there will be no food debris so having less scrubbing power is fine. No one cares if everyday glasses from Target are damaged after 20 years washing in a Miele but some fine stemware owners would be very upset if irreplaceable Riedel or Zalto were damaged.

    I have a La Perla II. RemoteVision was optional then. I thought it was cool but not worth the premium at the time and passed. Miele dishwashers can have their programs updated for changing detergent formulas for example.

    AutoClose is a little luxury. You just gently press door against closing mechanism and it grabs the door and closes.

    I use all Miele products including conditioning agent but sometimes use Somat salt instead.

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply deeageaux.

    I wonder if the water in my city (Portland, OR) is not soft, nor hard, whether I would benefit from the unsoftened water optimization, which appears to be the delta between the two glassware programs? The sales folks say that no one uses the salt option on the Miele's here in Portland?

    Remotevision is still optional today. To make it useful, it should support WPA2, remote firmware update, remote programming/start and time remaining on iphone app. :-)

    -mark

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  • whirlpool_trainee
    8 years ago

    - The "no rinse aid" cycles are esp. for beer glasses. Here's what miele.com says:

    "Washes beer glasses without dispensing rinse aid. This will help to ensure a good head on the next glass of beer. No integrated drying needed."

    - Perfect Glass Care means several things. First, water hardness is controlled to be no less than 3 gpg during cycles with heating and no less than 5 gpg during cycles without heating. It also limits the max. temperature to 122F, I think and won't work with the Turbo mode. So no Perfect Glass Care on heavy cycles, logically.

    - You can get other baskets for the 5605 but baskets are usually very expensive for what they are. You should ask Miele, if the ProfiLine baskets fits.

    - There aren't any changes that can be made to the programming that would give you better glass care, really. You can increase temps, have the DW add more water and such... but the standard settings are just fine usually.

    What is Auto Close?
    http://youtu.be/KlX8HgQlLpQ

    Perfect Glass Care?
    http://youtu.be/N6e3nEam010

    Alex

  • rococogurl
    8 years ago

    First, I'd get some testing strips for water hardness and see how the water measures. That way, you'll know whether you even need to use the water softener in the machine. I've never used it for either of my machines -- they can program the machine to disable the softener if you don't need it.

    If you have soft water coming into the house, there's no harder water to mix in, right? Seems the Perfect Glassware option would be useful only if you are using salt in the dw. Otherwise useless.

    After that's determined I'd be sure that the dw is hooked up to cold water so the china/crystal temp is right. I've got that and had good results for several years now washing my Riedel and the older glassware but with soft water it's always tricky.

    Method Smarty Tabs and Finish Quantum tabs have been giving me good results for some time now. I alternate them. I can cut the Method tabs in half easily to reduce the amount of soap, which is a good strategy with soft water. I use Quantum for the heavier loads with pots & pans.

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    There also was a 10% discount on Cyber Monday or a 5 year warranty. Worth a phone call to see if it's still good. I asked again about remote vision. With Miele, I get a lot of different answers about the same thing I find -- depends on who I spoke to. Second time I was told rv is used most often to monitor their refrigerators. My only concern overall would be if diagnostics were to differ from real life in a repair situation -- perhaps even worse appliance h*ll.

    Good luck with your choice!

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Thanks for the helpful responses.

    Yes, confirmed that auto-close serves no real purpose unlike auto-open which actually improves drying.

    The Diamond lower basket part# is 7848321 @ $338.73. Still beats paying $950 more. I'm also looking into alternate methods to 'convert' the lower basket into one that handles more wine glasses...specifically, I think for $60 I can add the parts that hold the stems - I have a diagram showing that you'd need 2 each of the following part #s:

    2x 100: 7506630 - $27.92 (small piece that holds wine glasses)
    2x 120: 7549130 - $1.53 (connectors)

    I'm still working on the part #s for the profline glass baskets.

    I ordered the Hach 5B test kit.

    RemoteVision supports WPA/WPA2/WEP. The guy I talked to on the phone claimed it supported 'everything', but it doesn't appear to support WPA2 Enterprise w/Radius authentication. Looks like setup would be a hassle on a protected network - have to use ad-hoc mode: http://www.mieleusa.com/service/remote_vision/faq.asp?nav=&snav=&tnav=&oT=234&menu_id=46

    Here is a link that might be useful: Miele Ad-Hoc mode config for RemoteVision

  • fauguy
    8 years ago

    I believe the Diamond also still includes the Miele 5 year warranty. That right there is $250, so figure in that amount as well.

  • whirlpool_trainee
    8 years ago

    The real question is, however, just how many glasses do you want to wash at once? The lower basket holds up to 12 large stemmed glasses - if you add the extra clips etc. The upper rack will also hold a few.

    Adding PRO inserts will allow you to wash up to 14 glasses - depending on their size - in the lower basket. You might even be able to fit two of these inserts in the basket. Someone who has a current Miele dishwasher might give you the inner dimensions of the lower basket, so you can see it it would fit. I think this insert should fit the residential baskets with all its inserts removed or folded down.

    Here is a link that might be useful: E 205 Lower Half Insert for 14 tall Glasses

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Fauguy: how often do you think the warranty is needed? I find that usually stuff breaks immediately or lasts quite some time...

    The lower basket on the dimension will only hold 4 of the Zalto Red Burgundy glasses with the Flexcare premium racking config.

    The lower basket of the diamond holds 6 with Flexcare Deluxe.

    It's not uncommon go have a wine dinner where we go through 60 or more glasses. Most of the time, there is a mix.

    Zalto burg glasses are approx. 9 1/4" tall and 5" wide. That E205 rack is way too small :).

    I need to find the part #s for the profline glasware holders which are actually blue plastic tubs, which may work for some other glasses...almost certainly too small for the Zalto burg glasses. I think they held a lot more than 14?? Probably need a flat bottom w/rollers to hold the tub.

    -mark

    Here is a link that might be useful: Zalto burg glasses are huge

  • rococogurl
    8 years ago

    This doesn't sound at all efficient to me. No matter how the baskets are tweaked, 9-1/2" wine glasses are delicate on the bottom rack plus you're talking at least 4 or 5 loads to dispense with glasses from a single dinner.

    If I had this issue I would be looking at a dedicated commercial or semi-commercial dw designed for washing fine glassware or a pair of tweaked dish drawers that have better space for this purpose.

  • whirlpool_trainee
    8 years ago

    I couln't find any PRO baskets that would take 5 inch glasses - not even on our German Miele Professional page. 4.5 inches was he max - see link below:

    http://www.miele-professional.de/media/sap/PSHOT/30/ZMP/000000000006997120.jpg

    The next best option is to get a perforated insert that allows glasses to be placed straight into the basket. Again, this is from miele.de:

    http://www.miele-professional.de/media/sap/PSHOT/30/ZMP/000000000003808850.jpg

    Too bad those glasses are so big. The stemware holder allows you to add a third row of glasses in the middle of the lower basket - maybe even four rows, if the holder can be attached to both sides of the basket. Plus, you can place some glasses over the tines:

    http://p-ec2.pixstatic.com/51b7489774c5b6553e000c7c._w.540_s.fit_.jpg

    Alex

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Alex: The links to the pro baskets are very helpfulâ¦wish I could find that info on the US websiteâ¦I saw some of the info on a sales book that the salesmen hadâ¦need to get a copy of the page that shows all the wine glassware inserts for the profile. (and I probably need a flat wheeled base to hold them). Are there other options for different width glassware??

    I probably should provide more information.

    3 usages:

    usage a: mixed Zalto

    8xChampagne. The Zalto Champagne is 2 3/4â x 9 1/2âÂÂ. My Riedel Chanpagne are about 2 1/2" x 8 1/2".
    8xWhite wine 3 1/8â x 9 1/8â or 8xxUniversal white a little larger at about 3 1/2 x 9 1/4".
    16xRed Burg at 5 x 9 1/4"
    8xSherryâ¦donâÂÂt have them yet, but they are similar to the white wine in overall dimensions.

    usage b: very informal - all Riedel tasters:

    I use Riedel Overture tasters for less formal events - they might just work for the blue plastic things inserts linked above from the professional line - they are only 3â x 7 3/8âÂÂ. I think IâÂÂd need both that blue plastic part and the rolling support platform for it. Anyone have the part #s? Can anyone confirm it fits into a dimension?

    usage c: (and common daily case): All Zalto, just 2-4 glasses a day. The dimension is probably fine for thisâ¦assuming I would use the same detergent for glassware as IâÂÂd use for dishes??

    So I have quite a mix. All may be too tall for the upper rack, but there is an accessory that allows you to wash them on the upper in a sideways position here: http://mielestore.com/default/dishwashers/glassware-insert-for-upper-basket-ggo-3.html I wonder if this works with the flexcare premium? I wonder how well it works?

    I am still researching detergents/reading threads on the topic, but I was planning to experiment with:
    miele tabs
    Finnish quantum tabs
    cascade complete tabs
    method tabs

    I was thinking IâÂÂd use different detergent for different uses.

    Which is safest for the wine glassware? I was leaning toward the Miele Probably need my hardness test results first.

    I assume IâÂÂll use Finnish quantum for heavily soiled loads and perhaps cascade or method for normal loads - as suggested above.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Miele's interactive glasscare website (very cool)

  • whirlpool_trainee
    8 years ago

    Hey, how'd you find the Englisch glasscare site? I tried yesterday but the German version is all I got. Anyway, I'm listing you all the glass baskets Miele Pro offers over here. Maybe you can use that as a guide. All the baskets are 50 cm in width and depth. The first four baskets can be extended to take taller glasses.

    Glasses up to 113 mm
    Glasses up to 90 mm
    Glasses up to 73 mm
    Glasses up to 63 mm

    Glasses up to 100 mm
    Glasses up to 80 mm

    I use Quantum for all my dishes, as we don't have a single delicate glass but lots of dirty pots and pans. For delicate glasses, I'd recommend something that doesn't work at full strengh even in 113F water. Half a method tab might be a good choice or even gel - without chlorine.

    Too bad only the Diamond models have the Express cycle. That's probably what I would use for freshly "soiled" glasses. Also keep in mind that, if you get one of these plastic baskets, water will pool on top of the glasses as they cannot be tilted.

    Alex

  • aamassther
    8 years ago

    I don't drink wine, so cannot speak to that part of the discussion. I do however, have a Miele La Perla II dishwasher and wanted to share my experiences with detergents. The Miele manual recommends using 50% the normal dosage of detergent, so 10ml, when using the china/crystal cycle. I concur with this dosage. I regularly wash our older Royal Doulton china with perfect results and no etching or fading.
    For this application, the tabs are too much soap, unless you break them in half. My detergent of choice is Somat powder from Germany. I purchase it at productswithstyle.com. 20$ for 60 loads. I use American manufactured tabs for everyday loads and Somat for pots and pans and china.
    I was recently on the WWRD site and noticed that they have a list of detergent recs, most of them are liquids, fwiw. Not sure the American ones are accurate though, as PO4 has been removed from the US formulas and not sure when these were researched.
    HTH, Todd

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Alex- perfect. Looks like you can get 4x4 to 7x7. Don't I need to get some platform w/wheels to put those into my Miele Dimension 5605SC?

    I finally got some responses from Miele prof side and they recommended this site in the US, but it doesn't show any of those glassware holders: http://www.miele-pro.com/us/prof/products/142.htm ...I had already found this one.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Miele prof accessories (USA site)

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Todd-

    Thanks for posting your experience on detergents - very helpful.

    -mark

  • whirlpool_trainee
    8 years ago

    Well, Miele does have a base rack to go in their PRO dishwashers. It's the same one that is also shown being used in model G7859, if you click on 1 lower basket. You can see the base also in use with the all-new PRO dishwashers that were just released over here: see first caption.

    However, to make matters more confusing, looking at model G7859, it appears there is no extra rack underneath the plastic basket: G7859 lower rack

  • a2gemini
    8 years ago

    I wrote something the other day from my phone - but it went to hyperspaceâ¦

    I have a Miele and put all of my high end wine and beer glasses into it.

    Most of the time, I try to use the china and crystal setting but frequently forget or just don't want to run a total glass run.

    The large wine glasses fit but limit the number that can be done at a time. I can only fit 4 large ones on the bottom left and a few more bottom right if not putting in plates.

    My Waterford fits top or bottom but my large Riedel glasses fit as above - they are really big and tall (although, I need to check out

    For larger parties - I have cheaper glasses that I can put into the DW and not worry about touching and can put in quite a few.

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Alex - thanks again for the part references.

    Alright - completed the water hardness test and it registers Looks like the dishwasher defaults to 1 ppm, so that seems good...probably do not need to add salt, since I am less than 4ppm.

    I did read in the manual and noted that it recommends 50% detergent for glassware...I got several tabs, but I'm not sure any of them will split well?

    1. Miele tabs
    2. Finish Quantum tabs
    3. Cascade complete tabs

    (perhaps I need to try Method or one of the above in powder form for glassware?)

    Also, am I right to assume that the finish tabs have drying agent built in, but the others do not?

    Also, does someone have a list of potential programming options on the 5605? I'd like to be able to tell the Miele tech what I'd want...I did this with my washer, where I put it into some sort of water+ mode that works better...anything similar w/this dishwasher?

    This post was edited by markdavis on Tue, Dec 31, 13 at 19:57

  • aamassther
    8 years ago

    The Miele tabs can be broken in half. The other two cannot without a big mess. I found some Miele tabs that were packed away in the move, I forgot how good they were. If you were to choose only one, I concur with the other posters about the Miele tabs, they give the best overall results. All three of your choices contain rinse aid. I still recommend rinse aid, I like Miele or Somat. They help prevent etching.
    My water is also very soft, 4ppm or

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Thanks for the feedback aamassther. Both you and Alex had informative posts in another thread that is relevant here:

    http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/appl/msg0301361315592.html

    "Did anyone ever confirm that the Miele tabs are made by Henkel (Somat)? In Germany, they used to be made by a Swiss company called Claro and now by Dalli - a company who usually supplies Lidl and Aldi with various cleaning products. Alex"

    Then a good follow-up by aamassther:

    "The old Miele tabs were made by Claro. The new ones by Dalli. Rinse aid and salt are still Claro made. I'm not that keen on the current Miele tabs either. Pots and pans come out with a white film where soil was.
    I've had the best luck with Somat powder. It should, there's 30% phosphorous in the formula, superlative results. Cascade complete powder is a second. I'm currently using the new cascade platinum pacs and Costco pacs with good results so far. This is in a La Perla II, softener engaged"

    In any case, looks like I'll have to experiment a bit. I've already rec'd the 3 detergents above...may order the method smarty tabs soon.

    Now to figure out how to program the unit on install...Any key installation programming recommendations? Install tips that a Miele tech may not be aware of?

    -mark

  • aamassther
    8 years ago

    Lol! It looks like I'm fickle. I'm having much better luck with the Miele tabs in the naturally soft water here in the mountains. Proof, I guess, that water quality makes a big difference in what works and what doesn't.
    I was able to get into the service programmes and added another rinse and increased the water volume in each cycle.

  • whirlpool_trainee
    8 years ago

    Mark, please send me an email via the (My Page) link and include your e-mail address.

    Alex

  • fauguy
    8 years ago

    When I got my Diamante Plus a few years ago, I was using half a Miele tab. But about a year later they chanced the formula for it to not contain phosphorus phosphate. When I tried those new ones, they didn't clean as well and there was a lot of suds, even though I was still using a half tab.

    I then tried the Finish Quantum, but didn't care for the chemical oder.

    Then went to the Method Smarty tabs (half) and have been using them for 2 years now. To me, they clean just as well, don't suds, and no chemical smell. I also use the Miele Rinse Aid and Salt, as my water hardness was tested to be 7 grains.

    By they way, if you look at the UK Miele site, they now have the G6000 series of dishwashers listed. So chances are it may hit the US in 2014. I remember the G5000 first came out is Germany, EU, UK, and then US. The new Knock-to-Open feature seems pretty interesting.

    This post was edited by fauguy on Wed, Jan 1, 14 at 18:36

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Alex: thanks.

    Fauguy-

    Now you tell me about the G6000s :-)

    New Features from what I read:

    - knock to open on the fully integrated model
    - 'Flexitimer' customize start & stop times, length of cycle/energy usage
    - new touch-screen for semi-integrated models [this is perhaps the only thing I actually think is better for my usage]
    - door salt (like the professional models)

    Existing features I still have questions on:
    - automatic water hardness adjustment for glassware -- still confused on this - what happens if I have Examples: https://www.miele.co.uk/dishwashers/G6905-Sci-XXL-CLST-402/ or https://www.miele.co.uk/dishwashers/G6310-Sci-OBSW-389/

    Here is a link that might be useful: Miele UK G6905

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    aamassther-

    Do folks find that increasing the water volume and adding extra rinse cycles improves results?

    For my Miele washing machine, I do believe folks thought that the extra water was critical to the success of the machine with the new programs for energy star not functioning as well.

    Thanks,
    -mark

  • fauguy
    8 years ago

    On my Diamante Plus I went into the service programming mode (I have the steps written down somewhere). Since you have to count the number of LED flashes, it can be annoying to figure out. But I selected the option to add extra water ( which looks like 1" higher in the tub) , extra interim rinse (which is before the final rinse that uses the rinse aid), and extra drying time that increased it an additional 30 minutes. All of these did help.
    What's interesting is that the only program that ignores these extra settings is the "Normal" program. It will not add the extra water or intern rinse. But it does do it on the other programs (pots/pans, China, sanitize).

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    OK; Miele 5605 is installed. Looks beautiful, except for one scratch inside the door that drives me nuts :-),..came that way, oh well.

    Service tech changed two settings:
    1. more water
    2. more heat

    Will either adversely affect the china setting in any way, or will this only apply to the sanitize/pots&pans mode?

    I haven't put any rinse aid in because I used Finish Quantum tabs on the first load and it has rinse aid.

    I just ran a glassware load and things were clean, but there was still quite a bit of water for the first 2" of each glass - probably only let it sit for :15 to :30 after the 'auto open' drying, but there was still a lot of water. Any idea why that is? I used 1/2 of a Miele tab for the glassware.

    First load w/Finish Quantum on dishes appeared to work very well.

    -mark

    This post was edited by markdavis on Sat, Jan 4, 14 at 14:10

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I'm running the china setting now w/extended dry enabled. Same miele detergent (1/2). Will report back.

    -mark

  • fauguy
    8 years ago

    The extra heat option I believe increases the water temp 10c so you might want to turn that off, I'm not sure if the China mode will use that higher temps. But for the pots/pans, normal, and sanitize it isn't needed. I only have the options of extra water, extra interim rinse, and more drying time enabled. All the programs will use those extra settings expect the Normal mode.

    This post was edited by fauguy on Sat, Jan 4, 14 at 15:37

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    2nd load of glassware looked fine (new glasses look perfect - old glasses are probably etched), but still had some water in the glasses after 2 hours....perhaps 8 drops in each glass...

    I removed the extra heat this time around - still unclear if the extra heat applies to the glassware mode. First two loads used 1/2 Miele tab - this time I'm going to try 1/2 teaspoon of cascade complete.

    The options I assume will be bad w/glassware are:
    1. finish quantum tab -- too much detergent and rinse aid
    2. cascade complete tab - too much detergent

    I'm still waiting to receive my method smarty tabs - will arrive Monday. I will also give those a go (1/2 tab) with the glassware.

    Trying to change just one or two variables each load.

    Water hardness is With mixed glassware, I'm able to get 16-18 in a single load, which is good...I'll probably spend the $60 to get the parts for the diamond-like Flexcare on the bottom rack to add a few add'l glasses. I'm still super excited about the potential to add a 4x4 or 5x5 or 6x6 or 7x7 basket to the machine - trying to find out if those are actually available in the USA (thanks Alex) and need pricing.

    -mark

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I think the cascade complete powder (1/2 teaspoon) does add a slight smell to the wine glasses...back to the Miele tabs.

    3rd load also had some residual wetness on the glassware...guess that is just how it is. I did also remove the extra heat option, just in case it affects glassware...I suspect Alex or someone will report-back to us on whether that is really the case or not.

    -mark

  • fauguy
    8 years ago

    Where are you getting this "extra water" left on the wine glasses? Since they are loaded upside down, the only water might be some water pooled on the bottom (which is now the top) especially if it is concaved in the center, as it's the only flat surface for water to sit.

    I usually get water left on the bottom (top) of plastic cups and some mugs. Also some plastic tupperware items.

    You should also check your rinse aid setting. I first tried the cascade rinse aid, and it had too much of a chemical spell and felt slippery. I changed to the Miele rinse aid and have used it ever since. My unit can be set to 0 (off) or 1-6 (1ml to 6ml) with 3 being the factory default. I changed it to 1 (1ml) and that works just fine, and lasts longer too.

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Fauguy-

    All glassware is upside down - the water is the condensation from the heating that remains...I assume...I'd say 5 minutes after the wash is complete the glasses are covered with it on the inside of each glass and 2 hours later there are just 5-10 drops left inside each glass, but those drops form water spots. I'm ignoring the slight bit of water in the concave glass bottom that is upside down - no way to avoid that.

    No rinse aid in the machine at all! Setting is 3, but I don't think I'll end up using it...ever. For heavy loads, I'll use either Finish Quantum or Cascade all-in-1. I believe both have rinse aid built in. For glassware, I understand that it is best to omit the rinse aid..Perhaps I'd enable it w/method smart tabs, but I don't have those yet...I do have Miele and Jet dry if I should ever require it.

    I couldn't help myself and in the name of science I washed the same glasses with Miele detergent (1/2 tab), Cascade 1/2 tsp powder, and...for kicks...1 full Finish Quantum. The Miele left the least amount of residual smell. I'd say the Cascade was the worst and the Finish was somewhere in the middle in terms of aromas, but the worst in terms of rinse aid streaking.

  • fauguy
    8 years ago

    I don't believe in detergent tabs with rinse aid, as it gets washed away by the time the final rinse is in use...which is when you want the rinse aid to be used. I'd suggest getting the Miele rinse aid and set the unit to the lowest setting. I never get any water condensation inside on any glasses or stemware.

  • a2gemini
    8 years ago

    I tried going solo with just the Miele tabs but just didn't work as well as I thought it would, so I switched to a level 1 setting and works much better.

  • whirlpool_trainee
    8 years ago

    I also don't believe ein all-in-one tabs. I use Quantum because it's the best detergent I have tried in my dishwasher but I still use some complementary rinse aid and salt. You might get less of a carry-over effect from the wash to the final rinse, now that you have extra water enabled.

    I know what you mean about condensation forming in tall items. Best way to avoid this is to empty the dishwasher as soon as the cycle finishes. That way, your glasses are still somewhat warm and condensation can evaporate.

    As far as extra functions go, I'd choose the 2nd interim rinse over extra water. Many people have said that their front loader rinses better with two shallow rinses than their top loader with one deep rinse. I think this is also the case with dishwashers. In the end, of course, extra water won't hurt neither. The temp boost only seems to affect the mains wash. Generally, with glasses, you want to keep the wash as cool as possible as heat increases the detergent activity - or in other words: making it more aggressive. Unfortunately, there's no mentioning of how much the temp is increased. I don't think it would be more than 3 to 5C, though. Does the C&C cycles extend when adding the heat option? If so, you know it works for that cycle, too.

    Alex

  • rococogurl
    8 years ago

    As I said upthread, I have Riedel, antique stems and Depression glass which is why I always buy a machine with china & crystal and have it hooked up to cold. I love my glassware and my old china and to protect it, I got rid of Cascade.

    Half a Miele tab (old formulation) worked well. When those changed I went to half Method pink grapefruit tabs which have the best fragrance of any on the market and do a respectable job of deodorizing. Few report adverse affects with these tabs. They cut easily. I trust my good glassware to the Method tabs though I also have washed the Riedel in mixed loads with Quantum and they came out sparkling (but with a slightly chemical odor). Somat also makes an excellent tab that is easily cut though this brand comes at a premium. Larsi, the lucky soul, has family in Germany which sends/brings product and is the resident Somat expert.

    Quantum can be cut, btw. It's a bit messy and I didn't feel the cleaning was as good with half of that tab whereas it is routinely very good with half a Method (and previously with half Miele). In my machine there sometimes is residual detergent in the bottom.

    If I have a heavy load with pots and pans and lots of cooked on stuff I use a whole Finish Quantum. It contains bleach and has removed stains from my white ironstone breakfast cups.

    I use plain old Jet Dry rinse aid. I was using the Somat but in the end couldn't see it did a significantly better job while it was several times more expensive. My rinse aid is set at 2. Our DD doesn't use any in hers (allergic little ones) and the drying is affected because these machines are designed to use rinse aid. If the machine has a Tab setting (as my Optima did) then supposedly that supresses the rinse aid for those loads.

    A few of us who have been around here a long time have generated multiple threads on detergent intelligence which you may have seen. Fauguy has been through the range of choices since he had beaucoup problems with the newer Miele tabs. Most cover the same ground and end up in the same place.

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    rococogurl- doesn't the perfume from the method tabs interfere with your wine drinking? I need to have a wine glass with absolutely zero odor.

    Alex/Fauguy/rococogurl - It does seem logical that the 'one size fits all' effect from the combined tabs probably isn't optimal for the fairly complex series of steps that Miele DWs take. They are convenient however :) I do have Miele and JetDry rinse aid and will starting adding it with level 1 to use in combination with the tabs...until they run out. At that point, perhaps it's best to stick with powder...finish has powder w/lemon and some other scent...cascade has an all-in1 powder. Frankly, the dishes come out spotless and I really have no issues with cascade all-in-1 or finish tabs or Miele at this point for regular dishes, but by using powder I eliminate the rinse aid component coming out at a non-optimal time. Perhaps there is something to be gained by using a few different detergents for regular dishes - finish for the worst, cascade for typical runs, etc.

    The complexity is with my Zalto/Riedel glassware (almost all non-lead at this point, though I still have some Sommelier and other 24% lead hanging around somewhere). I did remove 'extra heat', just in case it impacts the glassware load (I don't seem to need any adjustments for normal dishes). If the rinse aid isn't used for the china mode, it isn't going to matter if I add it...so it doesn't seem like I'm going to solve the water on the insides of the glasses problem. Out of the 3 detergents tried so far, the Miele seems best for glassware. I will try Method Monday or Tuesday, but I am worried about the smells. I've now washed ~75 wine glasses and none have broke...I'm about 1/3rd of the way done.

    No tab button on the 5605, which I think is effectively the 2nd best residential Miele DW, equivalent to Dimension+ of yesterday. So, I can disable the message, which BTW prevents the power saving modes...but I don't seem to have control over this in a convenient way.

    I think I'm also going to diamond-ify my lower rack by buying the parts to extend the glassware. I'm also going to try to get pricing on the plastic glass racks.

    -mark

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    I experimented a bit with cycle times.

    My china cycle moves from 1:40 to 1:47 w/2nd interim rinse - I enabled it - figure it cannot hurt. I also have extra drying, extra water, and extra heat enabled :).

    Extra heat does not impact the time on the china cycle, so the hope is that it only impacts sanitize & pot/pans?

    -mark

  • rococogurl
    8 years ago

    Fragrance from the grapefruit tab remains in the tub. Haven't found any transfer to glassware whatsoever. Method also makes a no-fragrance tab.

    Interesting that you don't get horrible detergent smell from the glasses by using powder. I hate the powders -- can't stand the smell (though the gel is worse). Tabs are a huge improvement for me.

    Like it or not, the rinse aid does matter as these machines are designed for its use. (Germans seem to have a thing for surfactants). As someone said on one of the threads, if you want a Miele, and dry dishes, it's necessary to accept rinse aid. Fortunately, it's adjustable. You might have a conversation with tech support on this issue. Perhaps the newest machines are more flexible on this.

    Everyone's water is different. In your house in may be fine to add extra heat and use Cascade. With my soft water I wouldn't dare. However, at one point they programmed the final rinse to be hotter than normal to improve the drying. With a cold-water hook up, which I have, and the onboard heater, a hotter rinse might not affect the cycle time.

    Occasionally get filming -- iridescent looking streaks on a glass. So I find it useful to an empty cycle on sanitize to clean out any residual soap every few weeks.

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Rococogurl-

    Isn't the tab just a nice packet of powder + rinse aid + salt? In that sense, isn't a tab no better than powder? The only powder I've used so far is cascade all-in-1 and it did smell a bit, which is why I only use the Miele detergent on glassware right now. I'll test method soon. I'll reserve the cascade tabs, cascade power, and finish for dishes, which seems to come out perfectly regardless of what settings I change. I run most things on sanitize.

    I will run an empty load every few weeks as recommended - I also bought the Miele conditioner, but I suspect that is something that should be done less frequently.

    Set my rinse aid to 1, can set from 1-6. I think this is consistent with older Miele's. Put in some Miele rinse aid and it finally stopped complaining about it.

    Not sure how to program the final rinse temp - doesn't seem to be part of the service settings?? - I did see main wash temp and that is what I set to 'increased'.

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    load timing

    settings:
    water+
    2nd interim rinse
    extra dry time
    hook-up to cold water

    �"
    no extra heat:

    saniwash - 2:25
    extra quiet - 4:55
    rinse & hold - :13
    pots & pans - 2:51
    normal - 2:40
    china - 1:54

    (i think itâÂÂs learning my temps - seems to change a lot - chine cycle is now longer than it was, oddly)

    with extra heat:

    extra quiet - 4:48

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    DW 5605 is S/W version 2336. Anyone know if that is the latest? The tech that installed it said he didn't have any updates, but admitted he hasn't updated his S/W for months.

    Thx, -mark

  • whirlpool_trainee
    8 years ago

    Yes, the countdown does adapt.

    Miele has done away with the Tab button on the newer dishwashers. The machine now senses the type of detergent automatically - though I'm not sure how. Bosch simply assumes that you're using all-in-one tabs, if you don't fill up the rinse aid dispenser.

    Here is a link that might be useful: See this dishwasher's manual on page 45

  • rococogurl
    8 years ago

    No idea what's in the tabs but they have 2 advantages: premeasured and no particulates/fumes to breathe in. Any product that warns not to touch it or get in your eyes isn't something I want to breathe either. It's my quirk but I can smell everything and most household laundry/cleaning/freshening products are nightmares -- dishwasher powder in particular.

    Sounds like you have good water hardness and the machine is working well. If the goblets continue to be wet inside you might change the rinse aid setting to 2 (where mine is though 3 is recommended) and see if that helps with the drying. It might.

    The east coast call center has some excellent tech support people who know the dws and their iterations really well. It sometimes takes a few calls to get all the adjustments.

    Do love my car but Miele makes the most fun kitchen toys.

    This post was edited by rococogurl on Mon, Jan 6, 14 at 9:24

  • markdavis
    Original Author
    8 years ago

    Rococogurl-

    I like my cars & laundry & DWs from the same Country :)

    Do agree that Cascade appears to put off the worst residual smell.

    I'll have to continue the experiments next week or so when I get over this flu. Smarty tabs arrived.

    Do like the way tabs are enclosed.

    -mark

  • fauguy
    8 years ago

    With my Method Smarty Tabs (go naked scent free) I just used a pair of scissors and cut them in half. I do that to the full bag at once so I don't have to fool with it later on.

  • markb
    8 years ago

    Mark,

    Have you tried Bubble Bandit detergent? It does have a scent that I don't find unpleasant and I don't notice any residual smell in/on the glassware. I have a Miele Professional dishwasher and can't use tabs/pods because the cycles are too short for the tablets to dissolve. I also prefer to lower the dose, which is much easier with powder, when I'm washing my Riedel stemware.