LOL, Jen :) And good advice, Cena. While the destructive and vindictive side of me would indeed like to rip him to shreds with my wit and practiced tongue, as you so eloquently put it, Mentha :), the compassionate side of Shelly is feeling guilty for having even considered it. This guy is so fragile - he's like a big mess o' cracks. And I think that if I were to engage in payback manoeuvres, I'd be dealing him a hurt that he'd carry with him for a long, long time. I don't want to do that. Making him feel like crap won't make everything he's done go away. It'll just make me feel like crap for having made him feel like crap. On the one hand, it'd be doing him a disservice to let him get away with his goofball antics. He's got to learn that he can't do these kinds of things. But on the other hand, it's not really my place to teach him a lesson. And if I'm honest with myself, I'm probably not qualified to teach it. Plus, it's unlikely that any lesson would be learned, anyway. It'll just result in a big old gaping mess. I think I'm going to speak to him privately about the consequences of his actions, but I'm also going to try to be considerate of his vulnerabilities and insecurities. I hate the fact that I even have to think about all of this. But you know what's really eerie about this whole thing? Check out my horoscope for today. I'm telling you, the stars know all about us, and it's freaking me out: "A debate over a controversial subject, perhaps involving politics or social issues, could take place today, Shelly Carmen. At first you might find the subject matter fascinating and learn a lot from what's being said, but you'll be less comfortable when the conversation changes from a discussion into a quarrel. At that point you may want to just walk away. You're too sensitive to be comfortable there, so don't worry about being rude. Do it!"

ogrose: sorry about your husband. Best of Luck with your renovation. If you like the work they are doing you ARE WAY AHEAD. Have you ever read those horror stories about GC's ? We hired a friend from Guyana(Des) who has been working since the age of 14. He does molding,builds out windows, electrical, plumbing, cabinet install. I did hire a licensed electrician(also part of Guyanese network) to change out the fuse box. We have saved a ton of money handling the job ourselves. Fortunately DH carried up all materials to 2nd fl(he's a cement/concrete worker so he's used to heavy items) You do need to supervise everything...I took a nap on New Year's and the bathroom tile had to be ripped up immediately b/c he didn't see the hex pattern(was preoccupied b/c his "baby" Pathfinder was in the shop LOL now. I got blamed by my sweetheart, no fun on New Year's Eve. BIG FIGHT. then I let Des have it, WTF, looks like a drunk person did that, I could have done it better if I had been drinking...You see how stress is transferred down the line.. HE'S SLOW too(he tells me "if you want it done right you can't rush it man !" but I just keep repeating, keep repeating, keep repeating : my friend's GC quoted 45K for the kitchen only and we are getting a new apt for around 35K(I'm afraid to add up receipts). The bonus is both of us can curse him out and there are no hard feelings. I almost lost it when I didn't have a shower/bath for weeks on end or toilet for more then a week. Since I live in a city borough I walked to my neighbor's lotto/smoke shop and used his back toilet(thank you Yash) I told Des once this is over we can go back to barbecues & drinks at his house. I could never get through this(since we are living here) in such tight quarters with a stranger...especially the way some of those GC's talk down to woman. As soon as I put on my Red Wing workboots Des knows I mean business(he suggested I change out of the slippers...)When I get tired of it I yell at both "himself" and Des that this is what I get for hiring immigrants !! (I am joking) I live in the most diverse county in the world, that's why I love it.

marcolo - you obviously have some pent up frustrations left over from your bluecollar childhood. You also have no clue about how the industry works either! A GC can be a project manager or not. Can be a sales man on not, can, and often is, both. He or SHE might have employees and might not. That $40 an hour to a sub doesn't just go into that plumbers pocket ( less uncle Sam's cut) like your "salary" does. (S)he gets to pay our uncle just like you but, many get the privilege of sending a lot of that money in ahead of time in quarterly estimated payments, not taken out of a paycheck every two weeks like most people on salary. You should try paying your tax bill in advance - you'll love it! Out of that $40/hr comes professional fees an licenses and overhead like a phone or two, and a vehicle that gets outasite gas mileage and some have offices believe it or not, and then there is workman's comp insurance so if he steps on a nail at YOUR house you are protected, and many even have something like obamcare too, and lets not forget one of the biggest - Liability Insurance - you want your slave.... I mean contractor to have that , right marcolo? I mean you don't want him accidently cutting a water pipe and flooding your house and then leave you with the bill simply saying "sorry maser, I dinnen mean ta , I guess ya can whip me." So, what do you suppose all that is worth? Would you like to pick up some of you're job's overhead like contractors do? You can easily give your employer back $$$ for use of the phone & pay ALL of your health care costs, and buy your own computer and pay for the internet out of your salary - sound good? While your at it why not round up and pay him for your desk/chair and pencils, pens and all the reams of paper you use? Another thing none of you math wizzes have taken into account in the scenario is that the bid @ $40/hr include some material, drywall, paint, cost $$$ and should be deducted BEFORE you start computing labor scenarios. So, now we are really talking about less than $40/hr or $80k/ year , which really isn't - see weismann's explanation. To all of you that think the "hidden conditions" is just a scam - grow up. If contractors included everything that might happen in your job's bid you'd soil your pants when you saw the estimate/contract. You'd also never do the job because it'd be too expensive. The vast majority of people that did decide to move forward would be overpaying especially when no asbestos laden corpse or flesh eating mold was found in your walls or it turns out you really didn't need an all new electrical system. You'd be obligated under the contract to pay for that stuff whether you needed it or not. -OR- Do you folks think the contractor is going to assume all the risk for what might be there AND only charge you if it actually comes up? Get a clue gang. - AND / OR _ You'd all then be complaining that remodeling prices are ridiculous (even worse than in this conversation) and the threads would be about "how can I lower/ afford my remodel" And- why isn't a plumber or carpenter with 20 years experience worth $80k? Is your broker that just yaks on the phone all day, tells you to buy COKE and sell DOW and buy as much Fannie Mae as you can - "it's going through the roof" AND who is WRONG more often than not, worth $150-$500k + bonuses a year and deserving of that Maserati? Or what about the Calif. prison guards that takes home $122k a year, or the actor on the silver screen that get $10 -$40 million for 6 months work? Oh, he's worth it , cause "he's dreamy". Even better is the one whose only talent is she's recognized all over the world often gets $1milion an appearance - can't even tell the difference between cocaine and bubble gum. That's certainly a trait more valued by our society than making sure you kitchen floor is level or that hot/cold water flows to your sink for 30 + years without a problem or the lights work and don't burn your house down - so now I'm probably the one who has no clue. Oh, what about that mechanic at your Ford or Honda dealer that is charging you $90/hr? he even gets to work in a climate controlled building. Sure stuff is expensive - and I'm not saying that the OP should accept those two bids, but this is a two way street. Just because you you only have or are willing to spend $24,635 doesn't mean you can get a new kitchen in YOUR house - especially the one you really really have been salivating about. BTW marcolo, what do you think is fair for the nail driver to earn a year. What would you really like to pay him? How about: 1.your auto mechanic 2.your broker/financial planner 3.your minister/rabbi/priest - they should prob. do it for nothing? 4.the TSA worker at the airport 5.your kid's teachers 6.your accountant 7.your Gen. Practice doctor

He is off for the weekend, but no, he'll be back on Monday-install the new trim and rehang a cupboard. However, starting yesterday, we have a suspicious wet spot on the dining room ceiling (under the master bath and OVER the new floor). The achilles heel of this house is the plumbing. When the house was built, they installed an industrial strength garbage disposal that shook the pipes loose under the sink so we had a flood. The downstairs loo once overflowed for 30 minutes while we were all outside and didn't hear it-we had a basement swimming pool. We had the kitchen ceiling (under the hall bath) down twice last year for two different plumbing issues-the second time, the plumber just redid everything he could see or reach. So I am going to see if I can get the carpenter and the plumber here at the same time to take down some ceiling and see what's up before we put all the furniture back and then have to pack crystal and move it all again. The wedding is in May-think we'll be done? Condo anyone?