So, are there enough good tilesetters around to not give up and go with a big piece of Corian?

Nah, we all suck.

I know you don't suck. I have seen your work pictured on here, ( I believe ) and I have seen beautiful tile on this site. I just have Rarely seen it real time in properties I have seen around here.

Where abouts in the mid-atlantic are you?

Philadelphia.

Labor prices around here are about 30% higher than nat'l avg.

Not just there, but from Philly to Boston.

I DO know someone from the Philly area who's good.

It would be great if you could let me know their name, just for future reference.

I don't mean to indict craftsmanship across the board. I use a firm in my own house that is Great. However, I can barely afford them, and none of my clients have been willing to pay their prices. They are above the average in an above average market.

Shoot me an email, and I'll see about getting you his contact info.

Bill, mongo, and a few others are unfortunately the exceptions that prove the rule, and Bill I think you know that :)

Yes, I do know there are more fly-by-nights than good craftsmen. It's why I spend so much time in here and other forums across the net. But There are good installers all across the country, and to ask a blanket question like that I guess just hit me the wrong way. To me, it just says people aren't using due diligence in picking the person they have do the installation. They're looking at the bottom line, and expecting a top notch installation, and that just doesn't happen. I'm really hoping this economy knocks alot of those kinds of installers right out of the trade. It'll make it better for the rest of us who DO care about the work we put out, and it'll make it better for the consumer, as well.

I realize that my comment is negative toward the wrong people...the fly by nighter's are probably not in here helping people in their spare time.

I just wish it was as easy as going by recommendations and not picking the low ball bid. The tile job that I was griping about was not particularly cheap labor, and he came recommended. However, I did not actually see other examples of his work.

I know someone who ended up going to arbitration over a tile job where it was decided that the only real remedy (Tear out the entire wet bed and start over) was determined too much of a loss for the tile setter and so the final decision was that he didnt get paid for the floor (only) and the home owners still stub their toe on the tile that sticks up. They nearly sold their house because they Hate that new bathroom. He was the High bid.

I don't mean to single out tile setters either but this is one thing that is literally set in stone. I am sitting on a bathroom that I would love to retile, but I am literally more afraid of the unknown than I am about living with tile that was not maintained, has cracks, and holes drilled in it.

Again, I don't mean to paint everyone with the same brush and definitely not people in here, but I just wish I would see the results around here that I have seen in other regions on this site.

Bill, I understand where you're coming from but you also I hope can understand that consumers don't like to be blamed either for professionals' failings. It's like saying that people who get useless or worse medical treatment from mediocre doctors are to blame because they chose the wrong doctors. There's only so much research one can do -- I did *tons* of research on my tile guy, as you can imagine, and when push came to shove and the end was in sight he *epoxy* grouted corners (despite my explicit and pleasantly-delivered instructions) and lied to me to get onto the next job. I don't think I'm to blame for his deliberate corner cutting. Just one example.

And that guy has decades in the profession, was highly recommended by several tile places including the local DalTile, a local high-end granite yard for whom he did the tile displays, etc. Whom else was I supposed to ask?!

in my neck of the woods (nyc) I have seen several shoddy and overpriced jobs for residential kitchen and bathroom reno. The problem starts with the gc who hire ilegal low paying workers to do your reno. The gc has all the insurance and license. The international parade begins on your job. The ilegal worker will not communicate with the client only with the guy who pays them peanuts.
Even if you speak their language they will tune you out. If it is a woman client it gets worse. Prep work is barely done. They cut a great deal of corners on the job. They don't manage their time correctly and the gc buys crappy supplies, etc. It is a big money making came in nyc.

Now matter how careful you are it still happens.

I just wish it was as easy as going by recommendations and not picking the low ball bid. The tile job that I was griping about was not particularly cheap labor, and he came recommended. However, I did not actually see other examples of his work.

I've never recommended asking for references. As I said in the FAQ's, I've yet to ever see someone give a BAD reference, and even the worst tile guy has a few good jobs. Unfortunately, my way still wouldn't have done you any better, from what you're saying, and that is to ask around for recommendations from GC's whose work you trust, who THEY'D recommend. If you ask enough of them, sooner or later, you'll hear the same name come up again and again. Don't expect to pay a bargain price, and DO expect to have to wait on him. But both the time you wait, and the money you spend, 9 times out of 10, will be worth it.

One thing I DID recommend to someone the other day, is to print out the FAQ's, or atleast the ones that would pertain to your upcoming project, so that when you have a potential contractor come over, not only do you have the questioons right in front of you, but you also have the right answers.

I watch this old house and wonder where these craftsman come from. I've certainly never dealt with them...they always try to cut corners and accept sloppy work. I totally know what you're saying.

Funny you should say that. I watched the DIY channel today for the first time in ages, only because I usually want to reach into the tv and wring the neck of the moron pretending to know what he's talking about. Today was no exception, Singing the praises of putting up a glass tile backsplash with mastic. I've said it many times-- In coming around on 40 years of watching home improvement shows where tile was being installed, I've yet to ever ONCE see a single person do it right.

I fired a contractor from my own project, and a plasterer was fired by the contractor. The contractor and I came to an agreement of sorts that it was not working out, but the plasterer who was fired literally left his tools where he put them down and never came back. When looking for the new contractor, I had to look for someone, and then get someone who would take over a project, and then wait.
The plastering situation was worse to deal with midway than it would have been starting from scratch. It took me six months to find another contractor who would take over and I waited another six months for an opening. I waited months for my painter as well.

A project that was to take 6 - 9 months took four and 1/2 years. I had No kitchen for Four years. I was willing to do this to get what I wanted. However, I am not a design build firm: I work with one other designer and recommend the people I have used in MY house to every homeowner I work with. Not one of them has been willing to pay their prices because they are Very expensive in an already expensive market. The homeowner has the hiring/firing relationship with the contractor. Often they seem to get to the point that they just want it Done, whether it is done correctly or not.

I'm really hoping this economy knocks alot of those kinds of installers right out of the trade.

Bill, I fear the economy will only make it worse. Jobs are so scarce now that I think you'll see more people in other construction trades claiming they can do tile, just to get some work.

Most likely, some can and others really don't know that much about it! But I think we'll see more and more people branching out of what they really specialize in, because there's not much renovation or construction going on out there.

We are finishing up our kitchen reno - it took us a good 8 months to find the GC we wound up using. We are springboarding from that into our master bath remodel.

We're here in WNY and I thought when we moved here a year ago, we would have people lining up to not only quote our projects but to show us their craftsmanship. Not so. We couldn't get phone calls returned, appointments weren't kept.... And the prices (when they finally got around to calculating the quote) were absurd. Depressed economy where?

I lurked on this site forever and Bill and Mongo really kept me hopeful and from signing with someone that I felt may not be up to par, just to get things started.

So, in sum, craftspeople do exist it just may take awhile to find them. It's worth the wait but frustrating that so many don't have pride of ownership in the results of their work/service. Disclaimer: I feel that holds true in many facets of life unfortunately and I am in no way/shape/form 'dissing' craftsman. True craftsman in any field are awe inspiring.

I am always willing to wait and live in disarray. However, there are no young children and no pets right now, only adults who can adjust--I can't imagine living through a lengthy process with young kids. Re: multiple bids before starting a job, yes, I have had trouble getting more than One.

On a bright note however, the other job I am working on right now is being tiled. I was a bit anxious because it is three full baths and two kitchens with a lot of tile---and so far it looks great! :-)

I have a feeling Sandsonik is right, just the other day, I was talking to the tile rep at the tile store. He was flustered over a conversation he had just had with "a contractor" preparing for a 2000 sf install. According to the rep, the call lasted nealy 1/2 hour and the whole time, the guy was asking completely elementary questions. He said it was obvious this "contractor" had never tiled before. In the end, he finally told the guy he had a list of reputatable installers and he should consider using one!

If he's anywhere in this area, I can make a recommendation!! :-)

Bill - what area are you from?

I made the mistake of hiring the BIL of a relative. Just b/c my relative was a very meticulous finish carpenter, I assumed that anyone he recommended for tile work would also be meticulous. I did call the guy's references, but living 100 miles away from where I was building, and him being even farther (but willing to travel 50 miles to do 400 sf of tile), I didn't see his work. I was told that he had done tile in a celebrity's house, but of course did not get the phone number for that reference ;-)

My uncle half a mile away hired someone to tile his upstairs bath a few years ago - again, came highly recommended but poor job. Same with the guy who installed his oak kitchen floor and Kraftmaid cabinets. He is now hiring my relative to straighten out the pantry cabinets, and looking for someone to refinish the (peeling) floor. He tiled his own master bath and laundry room, figuring that even if he didn't do a perfect job the labor was cheap!

Anyway, it' not just tile setters - it's everywhere. I got glowing recommendations from people (again, too far to travel to see - funny, it was in state I had just moved from) who had done repeat jobs with HW floor installer (I didn't use cousin again, who laid my first DR floor, since we had warranty problem with HD material. So when I finally got my $$$ back from HD and bought Bellawood, I went with someone who had insurance and (I thought) would stand behind the whole job. Plus I wanted it done in 1 day and cousin was too busy to do it - took a week working afternoons to do it the 1st time!). Anyway, the main guy might have been good (he laid it out well, with some help from me and my calculator figuring centerline and pattern), but his helpers were careless - I got all sorts of dings and scratches in my prefinished floor from them setting down tools on the parts they'd just laid (they just ignored the pieces of cardboard he put down)! When I pointed out one bad one in front of doorway when floor was half finished (and I got back from store with T mold he forgot to order), he told me he would have to rip out everything from where he was back to get to it, and "we'd have more scratches once we moved our furniture in." Then he suggested that I was too picky (had pointed out that builder had raised all my doors and cased openings 1" off subfloor "b/c doors are cut for carpet and you're putting in tile", asked him to cut new wider casing I'd bought to cover the edge of the sheetrock over the DR opening b/c original showed gap with sunlight coming in - painter didn't even caulk it). Two days after he put the floor in I noticed a board in the center of the room was split, emailed him and never heard back. At least my rug/table covers it - there are some other splits I'm keeping an eye on to see if they get worse.

Maybe if I'd traveled 100 miles back to my old state to look at these floors I'd have seen the dents and scratches (but might have thought they were wear and tear). Maybe I should have traveled 150+ miles to look at tile guy's work - big tipoff should have been he does other types of flooring too (was supposed to do my DR HW but decided he didn't want to travel for it), not just tile. The guy who did tile in my old house (old Greek guy, not Italian) *only* did tile. I never looked (closely - did see floor he did in auto dealer) at his work either but came highly recommended.

I'm up in Maine, about an hour northwest of Portland.

Bill: I have also been following the tile issue in Kitchens where the switch plates are at the edge.

Here, that would be a "good" tile job from what I mostly see. I said in that thread that you would have to sue the tilesetter in this area and if it went to arbitration, the homeowner would lose. I would still like that reference for the tile setter around here, thanks.

I've emailed him for his contact info. Soon as I get it, you will.

If that's a GOOD tile job, it's no wonder this guy's in such high demand!

Too fasr for you to travel but if you happen to know anyone in NW CT (near MA or near Hartford) I'd appreciate it.

Funny you should ask! One of the gentlemen who taught me the trade-- his son, who is also a contractor now, is in Middletown! Shoot me an email, and I'll give you his contact info.

I won't tell you about the mudset steam rooms I did for Travelers Insurance in Hartford a year and a half ago! (my sister's a commercial project manager out of North Haven)

In another job I am doing there is a ton of white subway tile. All baths, both kitchens, and in each either to the ceiling or waiscot.

Honestly the installation is one of the most even and regular I have ever seen, and they followed the plan nicely. (Yes, the homeowner wanted a full layout on paper of all the subway tile even though it is all subway all the time,--no accents or designs)

Well, almost. They tiled the outside corner in the small bath with bullose on both sides of the outside corner. It was supposed to be flat-bullnose-flat meeting with bullnose-flat bullnose,"woven" up the corner. The other okay option would have been all bullnose on one wall meeting the corner slightly overlapping the flat on the other corner. So not only is the corner shaped like a shallow "W" with two bullnoses touching, but they used twice as much bullnose in one bath as they were supposed to. It is staying, because it would involve ripping out a wall and a half of tile, but we need to make sure this doesnt happen in the Master or the kitchens.

I did one just like that last winter-- 1100 feet in this master bathroom, but instead of subway tiles, it was 1" hex.... and this guy was a high powered architect before he retired (for people like Trump, Wynn, etc.).

I did a bathroom years ago, where I did that weaving the bullnose, to REALLY give it a brick joint look. I didn't care for the way the corners came out, even though they were certainly acceptable:

Something tells me if I brushed up on, and ADDED HUGELY to my high school Latin, and made a pilgrimage of sorts to the oldest monasteries in Italy, I would find Roman manuscripts, or hand-scribed copies thereof, detailing the trials and tribulations of finding a good tile and stone mason back in 45 B.C... LOL!

I use a firm in my own house that is Great. However, I can barely afford them, and none of my clients have been willing to pay their prices. They are above the average in an above average market.

Dude, you kind of answered your own question; quality costs, always has, always will... unless an illegal immigrant is being exploited.

Also, you are an incredibly meticulous degreed professional, and by your own accounts, details that drive you up a wall, and even cause a work stoppage, are not even noticed (or not minded even if noticed) by your clients.

It does not help that we live in a media-brainwashed age which DISrespects even the most highly-skilled artisan labor, and outright mocks any young person who would apprentice in such a craft... as opposed to a "real career" making rap videos in their parents' basement... :rolleyes:

Equal blame goes to the "fix and flip" clients, and those who act as such. I mean why else would they be chiseling Bill V. and Mongo for every penny, when they're getting something that could easily last 40+ years?

The tile setter was a cliche, so I thought he would be great. From Italy, thick accent, faked a heart attack when the client revealed the floor was not gonna be ceramic, etc.

I'll give you 10:1 odds he was a Romanian or Hungarian, who has spent some time in Italy, as was putting one over on you. ;')

OTOH, I once got a very high quality, laser-straight-and-level tile job from a Hungarian father & son team... but they weren't pretending to be anything but tilers. Floor is now 7 years old, no cracks or degradation, antique white grout still in place and cleans up nicely.

OT: are you a Gore Vidal fan?

I know he wrote a book by that title but I picked it more because it is the ghost image left on the side of a building from one torn down.

They are very difficult to find - esp. here in CA. We do most of our own work after it got to be more trouble than it was worth to deal with contractors who don't show up on-time, try to hide mistakes, etc. Luckily, my husband used to be a tile setter so that is the one area where I can't complain because he's free and does excellent work like the professionals on this forum. I too hope that this economic downturn helps separate the good professionals from the others.

I've been following this thread and hope someone can help....

We need to redo our MBR shower (it is leaking to the first floor and is unusable; thankfully we have another full bath!), and the guy who came out gave us a verbal quote and now seems to have fallen off the planet. It's a tear-out of a fiberglass unit and installing Kerdi and tile in a 3' x 4' stand-alone shower.

At any rate, can someone recommend someone in SE MA? I'm near Gillette Stadium.

Shoot me an email. I'll give you the info for a guy out of Boston who does top notch work.

Bill, the tile matchmaker :)

The generosity of the people on this site is amazing! Such a great community.

Here in Houston, tile setters generally get about $3-4/SF, which is CHEAP! While that's nice for the builders and homeowners who are more concerned with price than quality, it keeps the trade largely filled with unskilled and illegal workers from Latin America, so finding dedicated, professional tilesetters down here is as rare as hen's teeth.

Consequently, while there is a lot of tilework here, it's often shockingly poor. I went on a home tour this past weekend of $1-3 million homes (the tip-top of our market) and the tilework in 7 of the 8 homes positively angered me! To my way of thinking, laying $35-50/sf tile with $3/SF labor, resulting in lippage, miscuts, raw edges and uneven spacing is a crime!

But then you get to go home to that masterpiece of a bath of yours and give your GC a big hug :)

Fly, for that tilework, I gave him a heckuva lot more than a hug!

My GC's also my husband ;-)

TMI!!!!! LMAO

Redhare-- you have mail!

:)

:)

(I did just one smiley originally but it was rejected as insufficient, so I had to do two -- how apropos ;))

Got it. Thanks, Bill!