Choice of new appliances for kitchen remodel

13 years ago

Hi, this is my first post-- I have read a lot but by no means all of the traffic on the board. I mistakenly appended it to someone else's post; so with egg on my face, I am trying again.

We are in the process of a major kitchen remodel/addition. I am worried about the cost and choice of appliances. Much of what I am reading makes me worry whether there really are good, affordable appliances anymore. For example, we have had GE 24" double wall ovens and used them hard for 24 years. The element just died in the upper oven. We hope to find a 30" double with all the bells and whistles that will be as reliable as those old GE's. We are looking at Wolf, Miele, and perhaps Kenmore, and KA. The Kenmore is the least expensive but well thought of by CR. The Miele seems to be well liked by everyone but is also $5900.

We are completely gutting our kitchen and doubling it in size from 300 to 600 sq ft. We just got sticker shock at Ferguson's on the quotes for aa (mainly) Miele kitchen ($30K) and a mainly Wolf kitchen ($26K) In both cases we plan to use the 36" wolf cooktop since it clearly has the features we want and great reliability statistics. The Miele pkg includes built-in 30" refrigerator and 18" freezer side by sides, the wolf cooktop, miele 30" double ovens, miele warming drawer, miele combination fast bake (convection+micro+ "fastbake") oven, miele built-in coffeemaker, 18" and 30" miele diamante dishwashers, and 36" ventahood liner.

The wolf pkg includes the wolf 36"cooktop, their 36" built-in, top refrigerator+bottom freezer combination, wolf 30" double ovens, wolf microwave drawer, marvel refrigerator drawers (since the Wolf refrigerator/freezer is smaller than the miele combination, we thought we'd best add this), wolf warming drawer,36" ventahood liner, the Miele dishwashers and miele coffeemaker mentioned above in the Miele pkg.

One option we are looking at is a 42" french-door, top-refr, built-in refr+bottom freezer by KA.It costs about the same as the wolfe refr.

First: do these pkg prices seem right? Second, what are your thoughts about which option is better?

Thanks. This is a huge investment for us-- probably our "rest-of-our-lives" kitchen. [I just retired!] We are also looking at Crownpoint, Omega and Pacific cabinets-- any thoughts about them would also be appreciated-- but I guess that is a question for another forum.

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Comments (5)

djg1
13 years ago
I just don't know enough about the full suite of products to know, off the top of my head, whether the package prices seem right. Having looked recently at ranges (too hard for too long, but finally ordered a 36" range), hoods, and (less intensively) for mw and dw, I'll agree that the total price tags seem really high.

That may not be a defect in your dealer, however. A few general observations. First, the whole matching suite thing -- it seems entirely unnecessary to me to have matching labels on all the pieces to have them look good together; and it's highly unlikely to provide the best quality (piece-by-piece) or the best value-for-money (not on list price; and not on ability to spot a deal on an individual piece). In addition, premium brand EVERYTHING can really add up if you are going piece-by-piece throughout the whole kitchen. If the Wolf cooktop is your favorite, that's fine. What's the value add from their microwave drawer? From their warming drawer? Surely there's another way to integrate things visually.

Second, a large built-in fridge is going to add a hand-full of thousands to any budget, relative to a large, high-quality stand-alone fridge (which can have a frame or cabinet around it, after-all -- it just won't be built in). That's not to say that you are wrong to want this. Just that it's an obvious place to save some real money if you want to save money. Without compromising the function of your kitchen.

A full remodel is pricey. Cabinets alone can eat a huge chunk of change. Leaving that aside, maybe the thing to do is start over. Start with a list that includes all the pieces that you really want to use, but maybe leave off things that went on the initial list just 'cause. They can come back later, or not, depending on budget. Start with a full kitchen of good quality but more common appliances. For example, whatever finish or line you like from the CW top rated product in each category. Then, ask yourself which pieces you're (a) really anxious to change, because they're at the heart of what you love about a good kitchen and (b) interested in changing, but on lower priority. Start with the thing that makes the kitchen tick for you, whether it's a range or cook top or oven. A Wolf cook top (or BlueStar, or CC -- range top? -- or Thermador, or etc.) can be a FUNCTIONAL centerpiece that adds a couple of K to a basic offering, not 5 or 10. If you're really, really keen on the Miele double oven, that's fine, but it's a very pricey double oven setup. If it's just one of several you like that happens to fit into your suite of appliances, then maybe reconsider. What about a different brand? What about a range plus a second oven?

For me, it's all about the range. For you -- you should get what you want, respecting your budget considerations. My guess is that if you start again, abandon the matching labels thing, and prioritize, you should be able to save 5-10K easily, and perhaps more.
ellaf
13 years ago
djg1 gave great advice that can't be topped. Miele and Wolf aren't "good, affordable appliances", they are top of the line and the prices reflect that. In your shoes, I would come up with a budget that works for you and pick the appliances and millwork to come close to that with help from a contractor or kitchen designer.
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I think the Electrolux oven is great bang for the buck. I have had mine 4 years and it heats up quickly, bakes evenly and we use it to dehydrate food and dry art projects. I have had a Bosch 800 series dw for 4 years and my DIL has a Bosch 500 series dw for about a year and we both like them. It cleans everything burnt on. You do have to use a good detergent though. I like just throwing the silverware in the caddy and it all comes out clean. I can too, and have used every thing in the way of burners over the years. The BS 22K burner might be an advantage in using a big canner but the simmer on all the burners of the Wolf might be a benefit while cooking things down if you do that kind of canning. It is hard to compare simmers because the BS does not list it in BTUs but people do not seem to complain about it. It is just one simmer burner though. The configuration of each is unique and it is a matter of your personal preference. As to stirfrying, we can stirfry 1-2 lbs on our 15K btu burners but the more heat the better. This is an interesting post about woking outside and what is a good amount of heat. Restaurants use anywhere from 125K on up but it takes awhile to learn that. As far as cleaning I would look them over and see what you think would be easier to clean. I would read the use and care booklets online, and look at the terms of the warranty. I would also consider what ventilation you plan to have if you plan to do high heat cooking. I would have these comments about the post above. But there is one appliance I would definetly replace; the Wolf CT30G/S with BlueStar RBCT304BSS. Not only more powerful but more efficient. There is no scientific data on to say whether one is more efficient than the other. It will concentrate more of the heat directly to the bottom of the pan unlike the Wolf where most of the heat goes out,up,and around the pan. This results in much more even heat on the pan surface. Here is a picture of the two, and even if you account for some flare of the flame on a sealed burner primarily on the highest setting, the BS burners are considerably wider. You will have some flare of the BS as well at the highest settings. I would say that you could use a smaller pan easier on the Wolf burners than the BS. When you get to a larger pan, greater than 7 or 8 inches, the heat loss will be the same. It has been my experience that if you stand and put your hands to the side of pans on a Wolf burner, you will find you lose very little heat around the pan. If you want to capture more heat from a gas burner, conductive cookware with a "corrugated" bottom makes the biggest difference. Turbo Pot is an example of that. I recently bought a doufeu by Cousances. Cousances was bought out by Le Creuset many years ago but they had the idea for that type of interface with the burner back then. It came with ridges on the bottom for gas and flat for electric.
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As I said, of course it's powerful enough. And I'm not saying Wolf ranges won't meet the needs of an serious chef. Especially the dual fuel - with the EXCELLENT oven (provided the enamel doesn't chip). When I tried out a demo unit of a Wolf sealed burner range, it did quite a respectable job. However, I was not at all impressed. That's because the burners barely did better than the cheap Frigidaire range in my rental. That cheap Frigidaire range is, to be honest, an excellent cooking tool, just as the Wolf is. But for the prices Wolf charge for their stuff, I would expect much more, not just build quality, customer service, and looks, but also performance. I liked the Culinarian the best when I tested, but I have to say I also really liked the Thermador sealed star burners. If you're worried about having to deal with a smaller open burner manufacturer, or you want something with better fit/finish than they have, I would definitely take a serious look at Thermador. I would far rather own one than a Wolf. I can't think of anything I couldn't cook on a Wolf sealed burner range that I could on a Culinarinan. But, cooking on the latter was just much more fun for me. There's just this awesome feeling when you have a ridiculous amount of power, far more than you need. Or maybe I'm just crazy and nobody else has the same feeling, I don't know. Re: customer service, yes there have been horror stories with the open burner manufacturers here, but I have also heard positive things about their customer service, as well as bad experiences with Wolf. All the open burner products on the market now are relatively new, and in the few years they've been out they have made HUGE strides in improving their products. I expect them to continue to do so.
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cj47
13 years ago
Congratulations on your retirement!

The advice you have received is excellent--all of your appliances don't have to be of the same brand. You can mix and match with impunity, getting the "best" in budget for things that matter a lot to you, and perhaps going a bit less expensive in places where it's not. (which is basically what Djg1 is saying)
In the "Affordable, good and reliable" category you may want to check out the Electrolux double ovens.

Cj
sjb3ip
13 years ago
Hi there-
I feel your pain. We are doing the exact same thing right now. What I decided to do was start with the items that were most important to me (range and fridge). With that said, we've settled on the Capital Culinarian and probably the 48" sub zero fridge. I really wanted the Miele but for $3K more I would actually get 3 cubic feet less, so I can't really justify it.
We are doing a single oven with a microwave and a warming drawer and I'm leaning towards the Wolf. The dishwasher is a toss up between the Miele and the Kitchen Aid. So, we're not having all matching appliances but the best we can afford in each category.
It doesn't sound like you're doing a budget kitchen, especially if this is the house for "the rest of your life". We're coming in at about $23K for all of the above. I hope this helps!

Congratulations on the retirement!
mjvbryan
13 years ago
I am also putting in all new appliances. It has been frustrating. I don't want to have a one brand package because no manufacturer can make all of their products good quality.
I have a Kenmore Elite dishwasher that I've been very happy with for 4 1/2 years and will go with it again. It's not a prestigious brand, but it does a great job for $1200.
The double wall ovens are giving me a major headache.
There doesn't seem to be a good quality wall oven on the market that can last more than three years without breaking down. Stay away from Kitchen Aid wall ovens (both Superba and Architect II Series) as there have been numerous complaints concerning the self-clean function destroying the ovens and glass shattering after one or two uses.

Choice of new appliances for kitchen remodel

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djg1

ellaf

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