My contractor actually insisted that I provide the fixtures myself - so that I'm the one who holds the warranty rather than him. I'm guessing the way it usually works is that the contractor buys the fixtures at a contractor's discount, then sells them to you at some markup so he's making a profit on the deal. Maybe in the old days you would have ended up buying them from him at the same price you would have ended up getting them from a plumbing supply store, but these days with internet retailers, you can get everything at very good discounts.

If you buy everything yourself, you might want to run your choices by him just to make sure they'll "work"; also, personally I would buy large breakable items like tubs & toilets from a local plumbing supply place that can replace them quickly if they're damaged rather than from an internet retailer. Faucets and shower fixtures are fine from the web.

Some questions can be answered just by reading the title :)

Eh, I am not sure, but it could be a cost issue. My plumber gets a discount on fixtures which he then marks up to me at retail price, therefore creating another profit center for him. Not that there is anything wrong with that...

I procured all of my own fixtures, simply because I could get them for so much less online than in the showroom here. Exact same Moen fixtures, about 30% less overall. Your milage may vary.

I provided all of my own fixtures, tiles, grout, blah blah blah...because I wanted unique, verses the three options at spenards.

it's not that i want anything unusual (Toto Drakes, Blanco stainless steel sink for kitchen, Kohler fixtures). It's just that I can get a great price online (with free shipping to boot) but the plumbers I'm interviewing are really resistant to me getting the fixtures (with their mark-ups). They say they will warranty the work (not just the warranty that the fixtures carry) if something happens. I'm blessed with a very handy DH and probably would never consider calling a plumber back to fix something, unless it was a huge problem. It kind of seems like paying for the extra maintenance/warranty on appliances, which DH and I never purchase.

I guess i'm just venting a bit because i seem to live in one of the parts of the country where plumbers are few and quite busy. i kinda have to take what i can get and if that means putting up with their attitude, so be it.

thanks for letting me vent.

marie

Tell the plumbers that you're happy to go through him, but you expect the prices to be as good as you can get elsewhere/on the internet. Tell him you're happy to compensate him for his services/work, including a reasonable profit, but that his bid should not include an expectation of additional profit from a markup on fixtures. Tell each of them that you've told all the other bidders the same thing, so they don't need to worry that you'll be comparing apples to oranges.

Keep interviewing. Funny, I didn't even *ask* our plumber *if* I could supply my own fixtures. On his first day of work, I supplied him with all the specs of my sink, tub, shower and toilet and asked how soon I should order them so I wouldn't hold him up.

I just made darn sure everything was here before he needed it. Never even considered going through him.

Ditto what heimert said--be upfront about it--tell them that you really do want him to be fairly compensated--it's just that you'd rather spend the money giving them fair compensation than paying the local plumbing store extra $$. Doesn't work? He's probably getting a kickback. Keep looking. Our plumber installed everything we had on-site in our kitchen with an hourly rate.

(Oh, and just in case you think those prices are at least "close" at the bricks-and-mortar stores in your town for plumbing supplies...they're not!! Two examples--my Rohl sink for the kitchen was $350 more here in town then ordered from the Internet--I think it was $600 vs. $950--and my Danze shower/tub fixture that I just ordered was $147 vs. $307...not even CLOSE in my book! $10 or $15 difference...sure, I'll support my local retailer. But not that much!! I found that plumbing prices had the most variation of ANYTHING in my remodel--appliances were cheaper locally, sinks/faucets/fixtures cheaper online. Oh, and I did ask them to price match...brought the paperwork in and everything. One place--Security Supply--actually LAUGHED.)

:)
Sarah

We're building and just started checking out plumbing fixtures. Ive gotten prices from the plumbers and compared them online. Online has them beat. If its only a small difference Im willing to order with the plumber, but some of these things are majorly different. Personally, I would never agree to pay their prices unless money wasnt an issue to me.

It's worth checking prices with your local places... I had a spreadsheet with all the items I wanted and the online prices. I bought most of my plumbing fixtures from a local supply store that my contractor recommended - he sends them so much business that they give his customers special pricing. For most of the items, they came in very close to the internet prices or only slightly over (in a couple of cases I had to haggle a bit) - and their delivery charges were better than what I would have paid online to have a tub and toilet delivered. Plus I knew my contractor had a lot of clout with them if anything came damaged.

The only thing on my list that I didn't buy from them was my sink faucet - they didn't carry the brand I wanted, and the look-alike was $300. I got the exact one I wanted online for $140. Also bought my towel bars online (I hadn't even picked them yet at the time I ordered the other stuff).

Sure you can buy your own stuff, the only caveat is to have it on hand so you don't slow down the work. Most folks are good about that.

Some installers will only offer a warranty only on fixtures they provide, as their "markup" is their insurance policy, so to speak.

One catch is that some internet resellers offer factory seconds and returns. So be careful with that.

As others have posted, be upfront with whoever is doing the work. Some like to maintain ownership of the entire process, some are not as particular.

Big thing is do your homework, be knowledgeable, and be prepared to have a frank discussion with your installer. It's surprises after terms are discussed that can cause problems.

My husband is an electrical contractor so I guess you could say we are on the other side of this issue. We do not do much construction because the profit margins are too low. And if the customer were to take away the mark up of the material then yes the world really does end as far as we are concerned...LOL..We really are not interested in getting involved with the job as it simply is not worth our time. And I am not talking a huge markup here! There will always be trades that will do it for a lower price and that is actually where our company does alot of our work. Fixing the mistakes of those who work for the least amount of compensation. Now I am absolutely NOT saying that every trade is bad. In fact there are alot of good people out there who have no overhead and have no choice but to work for what they can get. And they may do a good job. But when people are willing to work for lower than what is considered the norm they have to make short cuts somewhere. The average customer might not see it but they have to make money somehow and it is usually behind the walls where no one can pick up where the trade has undercut the quality of material or workmanship.

In our part of the country the industry standard is to either quote an entire job or wages plus material. Yes the contractor may add a percentage on top of the material and yes it does mean the product will be warrantied. But this profit margin also helps pay for wages incl Workman's Compensation, payroll liabilities of each worker, gas, maintenance of vehicles, office staff, processing of material lists, quotes, etc etc etc.

I can appreciate your frustration. In fact I did the same thing when we built our house this year. We needed pot lights installed in our kitchen and my husband ordered them through his supplier. I was at Rona Building supply and I quickly called him and told him that I was standing in front of a whole display of what I considered to be the exact same lights and they were alot less in price! He laughed and said I sounded like some of his customers. He then proceeded to tell me the differences between these particular lights at Rona and the ones he was getting and I completely got the point. Same thing happened with a sink I wanted to order from Home Depot. I was sure it was the same thing and it turned out to be a different gauge of steel even though it had the exact same product number. (I want to say this does not always happen at these stores. Oftentimes they do have the exact same product for cheaper but in these two cases they did not.) So sometimes these are things to consider and the installer may be too busy to figure out what is legitimately the same and what is not so they make the decision to just go to one supplier that they trust in order to give the customer the best possible product they can, while at the same time assuring themselves that they likely won't be called back to fix something.

So that is just a little insight from the other side of the fence. I don't expect any sympathy...lol..that's okay. But I think it is important to get all sides of the issue. My husband is not home at the moment but I am sure he would have more to say on the subject. Of course we live in a democracy where we are free to call anyone we want, if it is too high in our opinion, we are free to call someone else. But is also the tradesperson choice whether he wants to work for what he considers to be fair compensation for services rendered.

Check out your local kitchen and Bath contractor supply store. I was basically my own contractor for our recent remodel so was given contractor discounts on all my kitchen appliances, sinks and faucets. I still did my research on internet pricing and negotiated prices with the local contractor supply. They were really good about matching internet prices but I still had to pay taxes and minimal shipping costs. The advantage was I had someone local who was responsible if anything arrived damaged or incorrect so the small additional cost was worth it to me. On a couple of items that they could not get into the pricing ballpark I ended up purchasing myself from ebay vendors. Got a couple great faucets for the laundry and bar area that way. If you can build a relationship with someone local though who is willing to provide good customer service I think its a win-win situation.

mel_bc,

I see your point for the average customer but I'm a complete nut when it comes to researching materials and quality. Many people on this forum are too. Once I decide what I want, I look for a great deal. Usually I choose a few different faucets and keep a steady search on all.

Just picked up a $400. Ginger shower basket for $29.00. It isn't a factory second. It was a return. Big deal. No missing parts even though the box had once been opened. I had to pay shipping ($15.00) but this is how I always do my home improvements. No contractor has the time to do this for me and I have never had a bad experience *because* I research and ask questions before I buy.

I have a friend who is a plumber and an electrician. He says the jokes at the plumbing supply place are way funnier than at his electrical supply place. :+)

The above are all good remarks.

i think it is clear that most consumers will have no means to tell in advance if the manufacturer has cut corners in order to sell at a big box store even while keeping the same part numbers.

In addition to the above remarks, it is worth mentioning that some plumbing fixtures are a pain to install and others are not. Some manufacturers have great technical service people who answer everything perfectly every time and are always available when you call them from a job site. I had one great manufacturer on one complicated job, whose tech support guys saved me several times from spinning my wheels or making mistakes. That was a Chicago faucet company.

So your plumbers may truly and sincerely want to avoid walking into a nightmare, and furthermore maybe they won't elaborate because explaining this is often a lose-lose not a win-win. I bought a fancy thermostatic shower valve and it took me and another good guy almost a day to install it right, and I almost had to break tile to start all over again. There were two instruction manuals; both concurred with each other but were still not clear.

If you are charging hourly wages and half the time the homeowners see they are paying for your continuing education, it's a lose-lose not a win-win, although you can end up with more of their money it is not a good deal.

Even reading instructions for the first time can be a nightmare, for most people. Some companies have a nice clear standard way of explaining what connects to what. Some fancy things have instructions translated from German or Italian that don't make much sense unless you are already familiar with the product.

HTH
David

David,
I love my new plumber/electrician. He asked if he could take the specs for our Toto Neorest home with him so he could research more on his computer. His continuing education was done on his time, not mine. The next day, he was ready to do the rough in and electrical exactly the way Toto wanted it. He fell in love with the toilet and can't wait to tell a few of his customers all about it.

To keep skills up to date requires continuing education in any industry. Like learning to install Kerdi in showers. Every tile man I spoke with who tried to talk me into doing the shower his way instead of answering my simple question "Do you know how to install a shower using the Kerdi system?", was really just wasting both of our time. I didn't want them to talk me into any other system. Hopefully enough people will call them with the same question until they decide they must learn how to do it in order to get good jobs.

I find if you treat people respectful, are direct (and nice), most people respond in kind.

I love Chicago faucets!

David brought up some really good points, but there's one he missed. And that is that many plumbing products require extra parts in order to install them. Little things like gaskets, screws, flex lines, even valves -- things a plumber would know or spot instantly if he buys the part, but would not realize if the customer supplied the part. So what is the contractore to do when he goes to install the faucet you bought and realizes he's missing a washer or a screw? All he can do is run to the store (or send you?) and get one, and who is going to pay for the time it takes to do that?

Now - I am all about saving money, and I buy all of my own parts online. (And my husband is a contractor who does his own plumbing!) So if you want to buy your own stuff, buy it EARLY so that it's ready and on-hand, and ask your plumber to inspect early it for completeness and quality.
Also, if installing it is an extra pain (and there are some that ARE a pain!) -- it's only fair to compensate him extra for the time it takes him to figure out how to do it.

Sweeby,

I totally agree with you. If you are going to supply parts, make sure you *know* what parts you need and make sure it's all there.

We live in a rural town with one small plumbing supply/showroom store. We buy as much as we can from them but their selection is very limited. We bought our Sun Rise faucet through them. Even though they have a pretty big Sun Rise display, when my valve failed last week, they didn't have any replacement parts for the largest line they carry. (Remember, they are a plumbing supply place as well). We have a few frustrated plumbers here as well as a few frustrated customers.

Flex lines, etc. are best left to the plumber, IMO.

Communication is central to any good relationship, business or personal. We have owned our own business for 27 years. We try to treat people the way we want to be treated. We've made lots of friends through our old house.

I learned a lot from the additional posts here and am again grateful for this community and its resources. One quick thing- the cost difference in my cast iron bathtub alone- from the showroom and Vintage Tubs online was almost $3000. Yes, you read that right. I was able to get a nearly perfect 72" double slipper, cast iron tub for $749, free shipping, plus another $100 off for ordering the works for it, saving me hundreds more from the supply house. The same spec tub shipped from the showroom catalog was over $3500. All in all, the bath fixtures from the supply house totaled over $9000. Total spent online- less than $4000. All the identical Moen fixtures for shower and comparable works for bathtub and sink, tub (you couldn't find the flaw on it unless I showed it to you) fan and towel warmers. Doesn't include the inflated floor heat package they tried to sell me- I saved another $1000 online doing that myself also.

It really, really adds up.

You know, let's examine this issue further...

Going back a couple of years, either the plumber or the GC generally supplied all materials and bathroom fixtures.

Over the last couple of years internet purchases have exploded to the point where it's almost more common for homeowners to provide either some or all materials.

And look what's happened to the economy!

So people. please! Please start letting your builder provide the materials so we can get the economy back on sure footing!

8^)

ladycfp- I think that it is great that you received the savings you did on your fixtures. But do you think it is fair to compare nearly perfect fixtures or flaws that no one but you would see with flawless materials. Really when you think about it the same savings apply when you shop for furniture etc. If there is a scratch the seller often sells for significant reductions in order to move the flawed merchandise. You don't really have to go to the internet to get those type of savings. Just a thought I had.

And this is not addressed to anyone in particular but I want to remind people. The tradesperson usually is going to make sure that his costs are covered. If he can not make it up in part with his markup he will often try to make it up during the rough in. That is what we have seen anyways. These short cuts can cost you more in the long run. If I decided to go this route I would definitely make sure that I either had a previous long standing relationship with the person or have someone who knows how to do the install look over the work.

golddust...so true re plumber vs electrician jokes. LOL.

LOL! I seriously doubt the cause of our economic woe is internet purchased construction/home material ...
That said, I did my research. I went to a local plumbing supply. I told them I had been looking on line and this was what I was interested in. If they had been 10% more than the online retailers, I would have purchased from them. However, they were 30% - 50% more - and that was with the "contractor discount".
I purchased two jetted tubs online and they arrived in perfect shape with all warranties in place. 4 toilets, assorted sinks and faucets ... the list goes on.

I went to my local (rural) plumbing supply place to get prices on the items we chose for our new bathroom then came home and shopped via internet. Total cost for a Porcher Sonnet sink, including tax and shipping through them was going to set me back $2122.13. I bought it on Ebay for $684. including shipping.

Locally, the Toto Neorest 500 was going to total out at $3308.32. I bought it on Ebay for $1276. after shipping.

MY ginger brand Kubic shower basket was going to cost me $436.18 locally. I bought it for $48. including shipping from Ebay.

My total cost locally would have been $5,867.24. I paid $2008.00 total, for a savings of a whopping $3859.24. Everything arrived in perfect condition. That $3859. paid my electrician, plumber and part of the cost of our new flooring. If I would have shopped locally, I would have had to settle for much cheaper products and it wouldn't have been in keeping with the other work we've done on our house.

The way I see it, Ebay does support the economy. I buy strictly from American sellers.

I plan to buy the tile locally.

I guess maybe the problem I am having understanding the process is that I have wrongly assumed that we were talking about hiring trades for new construction. Since no one is addressing the rough in part of the equation (which in my opinion is the real issue because not many homeowners know whether they are having corners cut or not) I can see where if it is just a matter of purchasing your fixtures and all you need is someone to install them then you might turn to the internet for purchases. I am just curious golddust, what part of the country do you live in and what did you get a plumber and an electrician to do for 3859? That seems like a bargain and then some! And part of your floor was included? Wow. I think we are pretty fortunate where we live in regards to purchasing. Our local plumbing supplier knocks off 25 % to anyone who walks through the door.

I think 10% is a good number...I am totally willing to buy locally if it is 10% or less...more than that, I have no problem going to the Internet.

Funny...in the past couple of days I have been on the phone with a TON of those "faceless" Internet plumbing houses...and was shocked to find out that many of them are just bricks-and-mortar stores that have expanded to the Internet. Good for them! Smart to stay ahead of the curve. And I've gotten fabulous real-live people on the phone that actually know what they're talking about...certainly more than my local Lowe's or HD, that's for sure!!

:)
Sarah

didn't think i'd start this long of a discussion! i appreciate hearing all the thoughts and points of view.

why don't plumbers just build their overhead costs (insurance, payroll taxes, etc.) into their labor costs? I think that Sarah had a good point - plumbing supply places are changing their business models to keep up with the times. So when are the plumbers going to change to keep up?

my electrician, OTOH, said "you provide surface mount, i provide cans, etc. for the recessed." he added that he'd be happy to check prices from his supplier for me for the surface mounts, if i want.

I do understand needing all the parts and that there are plenty of little bits and pieces behind those faucets and drains. and since we are rural it would be a pain to run out and get something.

i did a house remodel/addition (kitchen, one bath gutted, one bath added) 7 years ago in the metro Boston area. The plumbers didn't bat an eyelash at me requesting to purchase the fixtures. now, in a different area, i'm getting a different attitude (and a *much* higher price overall).

i think DH might have to handle these particular negotiations - he's much better at keeping a level head and not saying "$1000 for a sink? are you nuts?!?"
:)
marie

Mel,

I am fortunate to have family in the trade - artists in their line of work who know other people who aren't necessarily contractors but they are artists in their specialty.

I am my own contractor so I hire tradesmen. People who are artists in their field - committed to their industry and completely aware of code. (We insist on code whether we're permitted or not!) I know I'm lucky to live in an old city of homes that are grandfathered in. The county has to prove it wasn't there and our goal is to keep any inspector impressed. We live in the county so building inside houses goes unnoticed.

Last year we enlarged our pump house into a guest house. The lumber yard said it was the most expensive siding he'd ever delivered for a pump house. The county has no records of the original pump house so what can they prove? Most pump houses don't get siding from the historical section of the lumber yard. It looks like it's always been here.