POA paperwork - copies vs. original

18 years ago

Is there ever a time that you need to produce the original power of attorney with the seal, as opposed to a copy?

The reason I ask is, I have copies of my mother's paperwork but the original is at her lawyer's office. He says it is in effect now (it is durable) even though I don't have the original, but won't release the original unless he gets instructions from my mother or her doctor, for her protection. It doesn't specifically say in the POA that a copy will work as an original.

Here's the situation: my MIL passed away from a massive stroke in February, and I saw how fast things can happen. I'm sure my SIL was glad she had all the necessary paperwork handy for dealing with the hospital. It would have been a real hardship to have to trek to a lawyer's office to get paperwork at that time.

Then my own mother had a TIA in April, and after that I thought I'd better be ready with paperwork myself. Especially after having some difficulty getting medical records sent from the hospital to her primary care doctor. Her lawyer actually suggested that I try to have the doctor call if I was afraid of upsetting my mother by asking her to call.

I told the doctor that I didn't want my mother to have to traipse around getting medical records, and asked him to call the lawyer to release the original. (She is 90, and was still driving at that point.) He flipped out, said my mother wasn't incompetent and he absolutely wouldn't do it. I told him I knew she wasn't incompetent but wasn't in good enough shape to run around dealing with medical bills and records. Anyway, I let it drop for the time being.

Long story short, she's had a more serious "brain attack" this week. (They still haven't said if it was an official stroke, but I think so because they are saying she needs some rehab before trying to go home or to assisted living, her memory is much worse, and she's having trouble reading. Her ability to find words and speak intelligibly is getting better, but her speech problems definitely lasted more than 24 hours.) The hospital asked me if she had a living will, whether I had a medical POA, etc., I gave them a copy of everything and that was fine.

Also, she's in the midst of selling one of her two houses, and hadn't picked up the mail for several days at the one being sold. Then she went in the hospital. When we went to check her mailbox, there was nothing there. When I went to the PO to ask about getting her mail released and changing her address (which I got her agreement about first), they wanted the POA. Again, the copy was accepted.

I'm really leery of asking another doctor about this after the first reaction I got. And my mother is in no mental shape to call the lawyer herself. She hasn't even attempted to use the hospital phone yet (which she was fine with after the first TIA in April).

What I'm wondering is, will I continue to be able to get pretty much everything done with copies of the POA, or am I going to run into trouble without the original? I'm going to either be involved with getting her into assistive living or getting her house ready for her to move back into, paying medical bills, etc. If she's going back to the house, I need to know I'll be able to do things like contract for easier entrance steps to the house (which she had planned to do already). If she's going to try staying at home, I want to get as much done as possible before she gets back there.

Also, I just plain don't want to feel like I'm being sneaky going ahead with things without having the original!

Thanks for any advice.

Sort by:Oldest

Comments (14)

acey
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
ericasj,

Funny you should bring this topic up, and I hope some legal eagle will set us straight.

Later today, as a matter of fact, I am bringing Mom to her attorney to get the originals of her wills, codicils, Lord knows what. Mom has heard from other residents of the senior independent living community where she resides, that it is best to have the originals in one's possession rather than to let the attorney keep them. The reason she has been told, is that, should she pass away, the lawyer can charge the remaining family several hundred dollars JUST TO GET THE ORIGINALS! Now, I find this hard to believe, thought it was just senior center chit chat. Now I'm not so sure.

I have copies of all the above, and so does Mom. She is getting more forgetful, but she was He** bent on calling him, he said fine, I'll get them out of storage for you, and off today we go together....he made it clear she MUST come get them herself IN PERSON. So HE knows it is HIS CLIENT, in person that he is releasing them too. (She doesn't drive, hence me taking her), but I also kinda feel like I should just wait out in the car lest it appear I'm coercing her to get those documents!!!

So, her plan is to get them, and for me to keep them in safe storage myself, thinking she will be saving me hundreds of dollars later on.

All her docs have copies of her living will, DPOA, and her banks have copies of my financial DPOA for her. I know that is important, but I too would appreciate a response from a knowledgeable person on the benefits of getting the originals OUT of the attorneys office.
asolo
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I am not at attorney. I have dealt with powers-of-attorney on several occasions in the last 20 years (including now) and speak from that experience.

"I told the doctor...asked him to call the lawyer...He flipped out, said my mother wasn't incompetent and he absolutely wouldn't do it."

If I was the Dr., I wouldn't do it either. Wouldn't be worth "flipping out" over, but no need for his involvement.

As to the document itself, unless quite ridiculously written, POA does not require incompetence in order to be in effect. Assuming you are the named attorney-in-fact, If your mother wants you to handle things for her via POA, you can do it. Period. That's why all your copies are working OK. You have been recognized as a legally designated decision-maker on your mother's behalf.

It's your attorney who is being a considerable jerk. The attorney doesn't know the Dr. How could he take his word on the telephone for anything? Simply obtaining the original document is a non-event. Signifies nothing in particular. In fairness, this shouldn't be the Dr.'s responsibility in any event.

Assuming you are the named attorney-in-fact in the document, if the attorney that wrote it says "it is in effect" but will not release the original to the attorney-in-fact (you) that he, himself, wrote into it, I think that's hilarious. This guy needs to be straightened out pronto. In addition to being a self-serving nuisance to you, It appears to me he may be on the verge of some liability himself if he doesn't shape up. The documents should have been written in a way to preclude ALL of this. Plus he's acting in obstruction to a power he, himself, has said is legally in effect.

Your document copies should serve you well. However, I would be in this attorney's face at the earliest opportunity.
Related Discussions
Elderly care & when to say enough
Q
Comments (42)
Our aging crisis: the need for a dignified death - September 14, 2013 : 6:14pm In his final published work, “Mortality,” written while succumbing to esophageal cancer, Christopher Hitchens captures in one sentence the unavoidable truth of the dying process: “I don’t have a body, I am a body.” No one understands this truism quite as well as journalist Katy Butler, who witnessed the prolonged process of dying that her once-formidable, war-veteran father underwent after suffering a stroke in 2001, devolving into dementia and then finally dying from pneumonia seven years later. As doctors pushed life-support surgeries, new medications and cutting-edge interventions, Butler and her mother didn’t pray for a cure. Instead, they wished for his death, all of which is chronicled in her troubling investigative memoir “Knocking on Heaven’s Door.” The “end-of-life crisis,” or as Butler calls it “the caregiver crisis,” has hit epidemic levels as the number of Americans over 85 doubled to 6 million since 1990. Baby boomers, like Butler, must now wrangle with what to do with sick elderly parents, asking questions of themselves they probably thought would never be fathomable: What can be done when a person lives too long? And has science gone too far in its mission to ward off death? Through her experiences with her father, Butler is unwavering in her answers. “Our optimistic science-worshiping culture wants to medicalize aging and make it nothing more than a collection of specific diseases that medicine can prevent or fix,” she writes. “But no matter what deal we make with the devil, nature outwits us. Dying can be postponed, but aging cannot be cured.” These are bitter pills to swallow and many might fall in the trap of citing Dr. Kevorkian, death panels, and agism in health care as reasons why these end-of-life conversations should never start. But Butler argues that this very fear, our culture’s unwillingness “to engage with death until it is in our faces,” is what has gotten us so deep in trouble in the first place. For example, 75 percent of elderly patients would rather die in their homes, yet 44 percent of them will die in hospitals, she writes. Last-ditch defibrillators, surgeries for incurable cancers and chemotherapy that only buys a few days continue to be the norm; while what she calls “Slow Medicine” �" home and palliative care �" remains on the fringes and is rarely covered by Medicare. Meanwhile, about a third of Medicare patients will have surgery in the last year of their life and a tenth will have a surgery done in the last month of life, she writes �" costing us an estimated $158 billion to $226 billion in medical overtreatment costs. But what is perhaps worse is the emotional and traumatic toll continual care for a dying relative takes on the survivors, which is the true core of her book. When Jeffrey, Butler’s hyper-intelligent Wesleyan history-professor dad, who lost his left arm while fighting in Italy during World War II, suffered a stroke at the age of 79, he was reduced to something much, much less: “With the memories, mind and reading comprehension of a highly educated 80-year-old; the spoken speech of a 4-or 5-year-old; and the physical dependence of a boy of 6.” He could comprehend his shortcomings, and it made him “miserable,” she writes. At one point, he even commented that he had “lived too long.” The stroke devastated not one, but two lives. “The day before [the stroke], my mother was a talented amateur artist and photographer, a woman of intimidating energy, and a spectacular housewife . . . After the stroke, she cared for my father the way she cared for my brothers and me when we were 3 or 4.” At 77, her mother had become one of the 29 million “unpaid, politically powerless, and culturally invisible family caregivers,” while Butler herself joined the 24 million baby boomers now tending to sick parents. When it became necessary for Jeffrey to undergo hernia surgery, his cardiologist suggested that they implant a pacemaker. The family agreed, unaware of the downsides of what was such an (they would only later find) unnecessary preventative treatment. Now, Jeffrey’s heart would tick on, long past his time should have been up. “Not having a pacemaker would not have guaranteed my father a quick or easy death,” she writes. “But having a pacemaker deprived him of his best chance for one.” Despite the surgery �" or perhaps because of it �" Jeffrey quickly got worse. Like about one third of those over 80, he suffered from dementia. His eyesight went, then his mobility. He began misspelling words. Then he began to see things that weren’t there. He became bladder and bowel incontinent. “I woke up some morning in a fury. Why had his doctors not let nature take its course? If the pacemaker had never been implanted, I thought, my father might well have been out of his misery, and so would my mother and me,” Butler writes. The family begged his cardiologist to turn off the pacemaker, but he refused. Other cardiologists refused, as well. In 2008, Butler’s father contracted pneumonia. Knowing that sending him to the hospital would only prolong his suffering with “life-saving” procedures, they avoided calling 911. He eventually became sick enough to be accepted into hospice care, where he finally died. Here is a link that might be useful: Our aging crisis: the need for a dignified death
...See More
Up front costs of Geothermal heat pump vs. other heating methods
Q
Comments (79)
It boggles my mind that people think 10 years is a long time. After installation, you pay each month (including financing) about what you were already paying anyway (probably less). You do it for 10 years, (especially with all the new government incentives, rebates, and low-interest financing now available) and after 10 years you're paying a ridiculously paltry amount for heat. Of course it makes sense. Think of the payback over 20 years once that loan is paid off! Even if you only end up paying even 1/2 of the normal cost over that period (including the cost of your system and electric), you're still saving substantially. I know not everyone lives in a home for that long, but seeing low energy bills does increase home values. I've seen homes sold almost immediately with their main advertising point being their geothermal system even in our horrible present climate while others still linger on the market. Not only that, but why not decrease your monthly bills slightly (before the loan is paid off)? Slightly lower bills, a higher sales price which will pay off the rest of that loan - still makes sense. We had someone come out to our house and they specifically calculated everything from current estimated heating costs, heating/cooling with geo, then savings/payback period. This was a full service option, including thermostats, etc. Finding that should not be difficult. One argument I saw above made no sense. If it really is worth insulating your home to use a normal system, it is a no-brainer to insulate your home using geo. Whether you decide to use geo or not, you can't say, "Well, normal is better, because we insulated, too." That makes no sense. Insulate either way. Then compare. The financial analysis does not make much sense, either. Yes, it would be wonderful if we could just stop paying the oil company, live without heat, and invest that money! Realistically, while you could want to put away the whole $25,000, you really are still using it for heat either way over those 14 years as projected. Geo, with the loan, electric, etc, will cost about the same each month as heat before the loan is paid off, so you can't just pretend that money could be invested elsewhere. Use it upfront with geo, use it over several years with oil, it makes no difference. That money is being spent on heat. Should it be spent on something worthwhile, or just, at the end of 10 years, have you still spending the same amount on more heat with oil? Geo will typically initially cost you a little less (including the loan and electricity) per month than you would be paying otherwise, then suddenly drop dramatically to only the cost of using the system as soon as that loan is paid off. That's money you would have spent anyway each month with your normal system (even though some of it went to financing, it is still less that what you would have paid for oil). Then suddenly, once the loan is gone, you actually DO have perhaps $1,000 a year in money saved that you can invest if you wish over 10 years. If, with financing costs, it does cost more per month than your normal heating system, that's one thing; but if not, the argument that it is wasting money is not valid. You're spending it anyway. Might as well spend it on something that will, in the future, save you tons of money. (Not just a little, a lot.)
...See More
My Day in Court with CabFiascoGuy
Q
Comments (150)
For me to order new doors, the company charged me almost $2,000 for 34 doors when I had some of the cabinets modified. When Cabfiascoguy ordered these doors, he only PAID $2,000 for ALL the doors because his company got a huge discount. I just WISH the Judge had asked me what I think is fair. I just WISH the Judge wasn't a lazy, milquetoast, milksop, candy a$$ and showed some courage. He didn't DISCERN CRAP. My 14 year old son said that the Judge restated the OBVIOUS and judged nothing fairly. JUSTICE, in our country today, is NOT FAIR. I know this. You know this. It's just the way it is. Just so you know, the remaining $7,250 from the balance was GONE, SPENT within the first two months to pay for the LABOR OF: uninstallation, reinstallation of modified cabinets, redoing all of the crown molding (labor), measuring and ordering new doors. This did NOT cover any prepping of the location to paint on site, the stripping of ALL of the cabinet boxes, sanding of the doors the second time they were painted, the glazing, the products/paints/supplies, or the Painting labor. And let's not forget the WOOD bill for redoing 5" crown and rope molding. Also, NONE of these charges alone included modifications to my HOOD or master bedroom TV Cabinet! OR having to have the granite template guy return twice and redo the templates because the first time was when we found out our cabinet bases were not anchored to the FLOOR! ALL, and I mean ALL of the labor was piecemealed out. Many different hands were in this pie. WHY? NO ONE wanted to end up in court of to take on this job. I was so upset, I can see why no one wanted to help me. After the sixth guy turned us down, knowing this would end up in court, I cried. I couldn't hold it back. That is how I found out how to get the job done. I couldn't even get an estimate in writing from one person. Not to re-try this, know that it was AFTER the second painter finished that the doors turned green. Why? No primer from the FIRST GUY!!!! ALL doors turned key lime GREEN!!!!!!! THESE had to be stripped and repainted, which has not been completed OR PAID for. I had someone to repaint them the third time, but has now gone on to work for a company and can't do them. The next most REASONABLE BID FOR PAINTING ONLY THE DOORS: is $6,800. This does not count glazing and reinstallation of the doors. I can't find a company, and the LORD knows I've tried, to paint my doors the color I need....and that I can afford. Please, please, tell me if you know of someone. I'm in NE Florida. And just for giggles, let's not forget the court costs, legal fees, anger management classes my husband attended, homestudy bill, and other miscellaneous charges. I could have ordered the TOP of the line Omega cabinets for what we've now invested for these shoddy cabinets. OH, by the way, I still need two drawer boxes modified. The drawers won't close because the boxes aren't square. I have legitimate receipts for $10,000 and ADDITIONAL $24,000, not counting finishing. You think I don't feel shafted and like a fool? I HATE this rage I feel. I hate this bitterness I have. And believe me, my husband is bitter towards me because I chose this guy. $34,000 down the line and I don't have this mess resolved. It's NOT just the kitchen: it's my master bedroom, too. I live in a large area, but our little home town atmosphere is small. The judge lives within a mile of my home. I WILL run into that judge somewhere or at a party. I've learned we know some of the same people. I WILL see him again, I am sure. I just don't know what I'll do at that time. I know this, it ain't gonna be sweet nothings I whisper in his ear the next time I see him.
...See More
Cambria vs. Other Quartz Manufacturers for Countertops
Q
Comments (58)
@SaraDixon- if you are having a person that works FOR Cambria coming, it means two things. #1- your stone was sold to you (and perhaps fabricated) by a certified Cambria dealer. and #2- you'll be in great hands. We've sold Cambria for many years and have had one maybe two small issues (a spec of wrong color in the stone). Not only were the issues handled timely (even during a holiday), each customer was thoroughly impressed and satisfied. Cambria personnel is expertly trained and stand 100% behind their product. You also have to understand that Cambria is the manufacture of material. There are other elements at play here- like the fabricator/installer/designer. I wish you the best of luck with your issue Sara! But if Cambria is coming, you don't need it. As for potential Cambria customers, you should all know that since September 2018 they now have a LIFETIME Warranty. This is a warranty that can be passed down to new homeowners if you ever sell your house and the warranty covers any sort of bill that may be inquired during the warranty process (plumber, contractor etc) You can read more about this warranty here: https://www.cambriausa.com/customer-care/warranty/ No other quartz company has a warranty like this. We have sold and do sell other quartz manufacturers, but Cambria no doubt is the best (not only because it is made in the USA, and because of their phenominal warranty) but because of what you get for the money. You'll spend more on Silestone, Zodiaq and Ceasarstone and you won't have the same color options, or even quality in some cases, for the price.
...See More
stargazzer
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
You may have to get her doctor to give a statement about her mental state to give to her attorney.

After my husband died, I put my estate in order. My attorney gave me a list of papers for my POA. He said put the original POA in a safe deposit box, give a copy to your POA. This is for my protection in case my POA gets greedy. Since my POA is a friend, she has nothing to gain, but I still just gave her a copy. I sent her a letter with the names of two of my neighbors who can let her in my home when/if it becomes necessary. I wouldn't trust my kids with any power over me. I'm seen enough in my lifetime to know that money/greed can change the people you trust most. Even if they take good care of you they may cheat their siblings out of their share.
lindajewell
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I have durable POA (both Finacial and Health Care) for my mom, my dad and my brother. I have never had to produce the original, copies have been accepted for every thing. I do believe the only time you might have to produce the origianl would be for things like registering the POA so you could see property and such.

All POA's cease when the person passes away. Then you will need many copies of the death certificate, because everyone will want one to prove the person has passed.
shambo
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I don't understand your lawyer's actions either. I accompanied my mother when she arranged her legal matters with her attorney, so perhaps that made a difference. Anyhow, the attorney gave my mom the originals for her will, financial POA, and health care POA. He also gave her copies. He told her to put the originals in a safe deposit box and keep the copies in a safe but easily accessible place at her home. He's also got copies on file, and I made copies of the copies for myself too.

Eventually, we had to provide copies for her doctors, hospital, and bank to keep on file. I always keep a copy of her POA for health care and DNR in my car so I can have them on hand whenever I take her to the doctor or ER. I've never had a problem with using the copies; that's what they're for.

When my husband & I did our wills, trusts, POA's, etc., our lawyer signed us up with DocuBank, an electronic storage and access service for healthcare directives. We both carry a DocuBank Emergency Card that makes all of our critical healthcare documents available. Obviously, DocuBank dosn't have originals and isn't the lawyer, but their copies would be counted as originals. In addition, we've both supplied our doctors & hospitals copies of our POA's and I take a copy of my husband's with me when I take him to the doctor.

Have you settled the issue of the hospital sending its records to your mom's primary care physician? That is absolutely nothing your mom should have to keep track of. I don't understand why there would be a problem and why the hospital wouldn't willingly, without any prodding,send a copy of its record to her personal doctor.

Here is a link that might be useful: DocuBank
lindajewell
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Never heard of DocuBank before but am going to check it out for myself. I will be by myself when all is said and done with my parents and my brother. I have no children and no one I am super close to, so this might help to at least alert health care folks to my wishes. Thanks sambo!
agnespuffin
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
One word of caution.

Check with her bank to see if they will accept the POA that you have. Some require their own special one outlining the type of accounts, investments, etc. that you might or might not have access to. It's more than just being able to sign the checks.
stargazzer
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I had to have the orig to buy a house without his signature and I sure hated to let it out of my hands, was afraid it would get lost in the mail. I also needed the orig. to cash in his IRA.

My POA does not end with my death. My attorney added something to the POA, so she could pay my remaining bills.
asolo
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
stargazzer.....

Certified copies of POA's can also be obtained which will stand in for original.

POA's end with death of the principal. After that, paying of remaining bills, etc. are handled by a personal representative, commonly called executor or executrix, named in a will by the testator who has become the decedent. Wills are entirely separate documents from POA. Principals of POA's are very frequently also named personal representatives in wills.

FWIW you can google "Power of Attorney" and "Wills" and "Trusts" and all of this stuff.
lindajewell
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I know here, where I live, I will have to register the POA with the county in order to sell the house. However I do not intend to sell just yet so am not rushing. My attorney will handle a lot of this if and when the time comes.

For the IRA's there were forms to be filled out to be added on as POA, same with the IRS, they have their own forms they want filled out. Our accountant did not know this, got the income tax back. Needless to say he is no longer the accountant for this family! My attorney is also an accountant so she will handle all from now on.

The banks did not give me a hard time, I gave them copies, they were sent to legal and in no time I was on the bank accounts.

If there are IRA's involved you should check with the investment company on how they handle POA's. My parents are invested with different companies and I found out they handle things a little different. There have been cases where the spouse can not get money out unless they just cash the whole thing in, which results in income tax if it is a traditional IRA. I am learning as I go and am very blessed that my attorney is there to answer my questions and guide me through.
ericasj
Original Author
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Just a quick thank-you for all the replies, as I'm trying to get an early start working on my mother's houses today. FYI, I'm on her main checking account as joint owner, as POA on another one, Transfer on Death on one brokerage account, beneficiary on IRAs, and am executor in her will. So in a lot of ways things are set to go smoothly.

I don't want to antagonize this lawyer because basically I've liked him over the years, and he is also a stockbroker. My mother and I both have accounts there, and he's one of the few guys over the years that I feel has given her good financial advice. If I eventually inherit her account, I'd planned on combining it with mine and staying on with him. I think I'm going to keep using my copies unless getting the original turns into an emergency.

Oh, and he is the one who drew up her will, also. I was in on all the paperwork being done; I was just glad she finally signed it all after thinking about it for 5 years. At that point, I wasn't going to quibble about where the original was kept.

You've brought two things to my attention that I hadn't thought of--having a POA on the IRAs, and the issue of needing the original POA to sell the house.

She has to take out a minimum from the IRA each year. If she isn't able, and I don't have the power to take out that amount for her, she'd be hit with a tax penalty.

Needing the original to sell the house is a good reason for me to want it on hand; maybe when she's a little better I'll ask her again to call the lawyer herself. I know she wouldn't want the pending sale to fall through because she was incapacitated.
stargazzer
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
The lawyer may not want you to have the originals because he might think you will move her money and he will loose his fees. That is the only reason that makes sense to me. My friend has a broker that doesn't like for her to draw on her invested money to buy a car or a home. She is so mousy, but he finally made her so mad, she told him, "You are not my husband and you have no right to not let me have it".
asolo
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Attorneys are hired hands. They have knowledge, expertise, and licensing that is very valuable from time to time and for which they are compensated, hopefully fairly. However, sometimes some attorneys can overstep their authority. This attorney's refusal to accept and act upon the attorney-in-fact's instruction is overstepping. He acknowledges that the power is in force but refuses to act regardless. I don't like that. I would not accept it.
stargazzer
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
If someone does me that way I check it out further. I had an assistant DA give my son a bad time and I called the DA's office and they made him apologize. I was in the hospital at the time and he escorted me to the nurses station, he called all the nurses over and apologized to me and my son, it was literally a public apology.

POA paperwork - copies vs. original

Comments (14)

acey

asolo

Related Discussions

stargazzer

lindajewell

shambo

lindajewell

agnespuffin

stargazzer

asolo

lindajewell

ericasj
Original Author

stargazzer

asolo

stargazzer

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

POA paperwork - copies vs. original

Comments (14)

Related Discussions

ericasjOriginal Author

COMPANY

BUSINESS SERVICES

GET HELP

CONNECT WITH US

ericasj
Original Author