Yes.

Low bid, I presume, because they're building their house, not yours.

I'm ready to have them eat their mistakes and get going.

You're the one who's in for some indigestion.

It has been my experience that a builder not competent enough to review his subcontractor's bids will be difficult or impossible to deal with when the work has to be corrected. You can rule out going to court unless you are a lawyer or very wealthy.

The bottom line is whether or not the GC can make the subs correct the work at no cost to him. I wouldn't count on that happening.

I would bid with another contractor, then drop this GC if the new bider is more competent.

GCs bidding their first custom design often make these kinds of mistakes. Like worthy said, they want to build their house not yours. One was so reluctant to follow the sheathing nailing pattern shown on the drawings that I had to come over on a Sunday and nail it myself. He claimed the building inspector, his buddy, said it wasn't necessary. He thought he had won the argument.

Rather than risk the high cost and aggravation of legal action and field arguments why not hire someone to administrate the project and provide quality control? Why wait for the wheels to come off before seeking protection?

Please follow mightyanvil's advice and find a good architect. A good one is worth their weight in diamonds. We had a very difficult build in many ways, some of them similar to cork2win's. I won't go into details and bore you to tears, but your talk of the kitchen cabinets alone brought back memories I would have rather not revisited.

Yes, we now love our home. But we had to fight tooth and nail to get it. We were naive (first homebuilding experience) and far too trusting, and it became a difficult situation. The person we thought was our advocate worked for the builder etc. I would have paid a great deal of money to someone to really advocate for me so that I could have avoided the fights with our gc and his brother. In the presence of my 4 children. I'm sure watching their mother get bullied and screamed at by a 58 year old punk wasn't good for them. Sometimes I wonder how we made it through that, it was truly the most stressful and emotionally wrecking year of our lives. I have a skunk stripe of gray hair framing my face to prove it. I color it, but have considered leaving it gray and calling it my year 2007 battle scar!!

This is only the beginning for you, and you are on the right track as far as being very specific about what finishes you want etc. Please believe me there is no such thing as a free lunch. What you leave unsaid and depend on the contract to get will be very hard won. I would like to see you avoid that additional stress.

I have heard over and over the following phrases, and we at one time used them as well:

"I don't think he realized what he was getting into"

"I think after this horrible building experience with us, he'll build a better house"

"Maybe he learned from our build how to price things better for the next guy"

You get the picture, I could go on. All of it is bunk. Most builders such as ours have been in business for decades. Please don't think he has made an unfortunate mistake with your one house. Underbidding is just that.

There are good and not so good people in every profession. I see it in my husbands profession. I also know there are reputable and great builders out there (worthy comes to mind) and architects as well. You hear the horror stories, but there are good ones. Be careful that you protect yourself, because trust me, everyone else is. There could very well be an arbitration clause in your contract that will try to keep you from suing them if there is a disagreement.

There is just so much that we learned on the fly, because we had never done this. There are people out there who do this for a living, take advantage of their expertise.

Off topic regarding your kitchen cabinets, the maple stain grade-I'm sure you have done your research, I just wanted to point out that maple is beautiful if left natural, but doesn't take stain evenly at all. Again, I'm sure you probably realize this, just wanted to point it out:-)

I wish you luck. ...

What Worthy said! Sorry!

You've received some excellent advice.

Everything predicted here happened to us in our build. Our contractor was the lowest bidder, by quite a bit. We knew him and had used him before on a less extensive project, and thought we could manage around his drawbacks. Big mistake. Despite the fact that I'm a lawyer and my partner is an architect, our build was miserable. All we did was fight over things that were specified - in detail - in the plans and in our contract. Most, but not all of it, got brought close enough to be acceptable, but not everything. And we spent months afterward fighting over those things that weren't corrected.

If you really want to get started now, or want to try to save the money, make sure you really understand what you're getting into. I thought I did, but it was worse than I could have imagined. Not that I don't love my new house, I do, but I would never it that way again.

I had a GC that underbid substantially and didn't have the funds to complete the house. We closed with it not complete and then, of course, we found out about his financial situation and that was it. If he had bid the house correctly we would have had enough funds in the loan to complete the house ourselves but instead we are slowly finishing the house out of pocket.

You say this contractor is financially stable but even still, if the project turns out to be a loser for the builder, you aren't going to get the house you wanted and the experience will be a nightmare.

If you are determined to use this contractor, I would express my concerns in writing. Tell him you are concerned that the house wasn't bid based on your exact specifications and you are not going to pay extra for things already specified in the contract. Tell him that if he is comfortable with your position they you are ready to proceed. Make sure you send this letter certified.

He will either assure you that all is well, dump you for being difficult or ask to re-bid. If he says that all is well then proceed and don't loose that letter and proof that he received it!

Hi all,

Thanks so much for the rapid and useful replies. I lost a lot of sleep last night and came to the conclusion that this was the first of many if I had to fight for every little thing tooth and nail all the way through the process.

This builder wasn't the lowest bidder, but did have a good price. Our contract wasn't written by our lawyer, but may as well have been after the changes we got. Our architect is very capable and is somewhat of an a$$ when it comes to details so our confidence in him is high. We have another architect (friend who helped with litigation over our last home) signed on as an owners representative to keep tabs on the project on a more frequent basis and to asses quality in addition to compliance with the plans.

That being said, I think we are well protected, but still to have to fight for things that should have been included is a looming nightmare.

We've scheduled another meeting with one of our previous bidders to take another look at the build. These guys came with the highest praise from all their previous clients and architects and subcontractors they had worked with. We wanted to go with them from the start, but their pricing was ~50% higher than the other bidders so that wasn't an option at the time. After speaking with them, they indicated that their original bid was definately priced high since they only got quotations from their best subs. I'm thinking that with the slowdown in the housing market maybe they can come back to reality and we can pay a little more for some sanity.

Does anyone have an idea as to how the housing downturn has affected custom home construction cost for the SF bay area? I know that some of the higher end tile contractors are now availible whereas before there was no chance to get them.

Again, thanks for all your input. It is greatly appreciated.

Bill

Good thinking! I'm glad to hear you are planning to consider other options. :o)

We are nearing our build... gc'd GC'd ourselves.

We purchased an unfinished home. Had looked at it 2 years previously, and the cost to finish was much higher than this time around. The slowdown in construction really played in our favor! Not that we saved a ton, but we did get lower bids and many stayed close to their bid. :o)

We're building in the SE, but I imagine that SF is in a similar situation? Well, I hope so for you, anyway.

Good luck. Congratulations on nearing the beginning of your dream. It's a wild ride, but so worth it when you see your dream take shape!

It appears you have not signed anything at this point and are merely considering proposals submitted by builders. If you are proposing to build on a fixed price with the general contractor under detailed specifications, I am not sure why the builder provided copies of the subcontractor quotes or why you are using the term "estimate." If he/she is trying to persuade you to change the specs because you provided a target price that can't be met, that is one thing. If he/she is just not paying attention tot he contract terms, that is another.

You need to understand that some builders are reluctant to spend a lot of time on a quote if the owner is simply "shopping" the deal. One way to approach is to give the builder the specs and lot location and

If your specifications are complete and the contract is to be a turnkey job, the builder should merely give a price to build per the specs. Does the contract contain some allowance provisions rather than specifications (e.g. $1K for lights rather than detailed lighting plans by mfr, model, etc). I presume your contract also include a provision for change orders, how they are made, and whether or how the total contract price is adjusted. If the "specifications" are not detailed, then you run the risk of getting into a squabble over what was intended by the parties including what is "customary" in your area.

RUN, don't walk from this builder, especially since you haven't even started yet and there are major issues popping up.
I would have a lawyer at the ready NOW, not later when further problems will inevitably continue to arise.

My wife and I are in the bid and contract phase of a cost plus build. The comments from everyone have been spot on. It's not that your GC is an idiot, he builds his spec houses 90% of the time and once a year, maybe, builds a custom home for an individual.

So, when he calls his subs and sends the house plans, they all do his builder specs and send it back. And not wanting to waste his time, he took what they sent, added it up and gave you a price. My GC is doing the same thing, but since we're cost plus, I'm reviewing every bid/quote and having him go back to get things right. We're not moving forward to the contract set up until the bids are right. It's taken almost three months and I'm still trying to get Doors, Windows and some small items from him. Luckily, patience is my only virtue, and I'm persistent like a dog at dinner time.

The contract is the most important thing, and as said before, hire a local real estate contract lawyer. Start with the American Institute of Architect's (AIA) forms and have the lawyer add clauses to protect you and include your plans, spec lists, draw schedule, and any time constraints within the framework of the contract. If you don't see it in the contract, then the builder and subs won't be held to it.

Be a vicious jerk right now, insisting every i be dotted and t be crossed... then, if things get off track, you don't get mad, you just point to the contract and inform the GC that money is not disbursed while the contract is not met.

Make sure your bank can't pay the GC without your signature, verifying that the work is done to your satisfaction, not just building codes.

Brian
Charlotte, NC

Thanks again for the comments.

We met with one of the builders who had previously bid on our project today and after much discussion it became absolutely clear that my idiot contractor did exactly what bdpeck's did. The bid to build wasn't necessarily to build "OUR" home, rather a home for our builder in the same manner they always do for his spec projects.

The concern, and it is even greater now, is that the builder didn't even take the time to review each bid from the subcontractor to compare it to the specifications we had provided to verify equivalency. We are working on a fixed price contract and have recieved the subcontractor bids because they were tired of us asking them to check on things and decided that we can check for ourselves...I assume (otherwise, why would they give them to us?).

Another concern is that this lack of attention to detail may be inherent to the organization which creates a whole new level of stress for this build. Don't need that.

Anyhow, if the builders we met today can get their price into the same ballpark, we'll drop the yahoo in a second. If they can't, we'll take the $ we saved by going with the idiot and consider it our salary for micromanaging our build.

Our lawyer is on speed-dial ;)

Bill

Yep, sounds like a good plan. I really wish you luck whichever way you end up going. It's an amazingly crazy, difficult journey that hopefully ends up worth it all in the end.

Not a day goes by that we're not amazed at the total lack of attention to detail and communication on our build. It seems like there must be a better way. I hope you find it!

This builder may be an idiot, I don't know, but you have to give him credit for allowing you to see his sub-contractor proposals because that is simply not a right you should expect from a Lump Sum contract proposal. Not only could it cause him trouble later when he has to adjust his billing to allow for changes in his sub-contract prices, it exposes him to you shopping the subs to other bidders.

This kind of scrutiny is to be expected in a negotiated Cost of the Work contract. You might consider using that kind of contract and requesting a Guaranteed Maximum Price. This would allow you full review of the sub proposals before they are bought out and would give the GC an incentive to finish below the GMP. There could even be a shared savings to reward you for the added contract administration required by you or your representative.

There is no contract more difficult to make fair to all parties than one based on a Lump Sum but the larger drawback is the fact that it causes the parties to work against each other rather than working together as a team with a common goal.

The first rule on my projects is that everyone must have the same goal and it has been pretty successful so far.

You also need to take a look at the type of houses your contractor builds and whether you fit into this. I am constantly amazed at people trying to fit their project into the lowest priced bid and believe they will be successful at it. If your building a custom house, get a custom house builder who is used to building custom houses - not one that only builds spec houses for a living. If you're building a 1m house, don't believe that the builder who usually builds 200k tract homes is going to adequately handle your building project. You might think that its just 'more expensive finishes' - but its a lot more than that isn't visible to the surface. You also aren't going to have much success or pleasure with builders who are regularly building 1m houses, and asking him to build your 400k house.

Keep in mind that I am not qualifying good/bad here as there are bad builders in all the spaces(and good builders as well).

As much as no one wants to hear there are differing level's of finish, we all have to realize that there are. On a 200k house build you aren't going to have the drywall or paint guys spend an inordinate amount of time making things absolutely "perfect". That is just the reality of the situation that no one wants to face.

Basically I think you need to find what category of house your project fits into and find the right builder for that house. While all things are possible, if you want to have a reasonable chance of a successful build, one must look at reality.

Update...

We have walked (or run as the case may be) away from our idiot contractor. The impending disaster really had us on edge so when the other contractor expressed confidence that they could meet our projected budget, they became our new contractor.

They build only custom homes (no specs) and included a scope of work in their proposal which was more detailed than our original specifications, and suprisingly enough, incorporated OUR specifications :) The've proven to be very organized and so far the communication has been excellent. As I mentioned before, they provided us with all of their references when we first approached them and each and every one of them had only magnificent things to say about their build/remodel.

Our fingers are crossed and many thanks go out to all of you for your input. It really helped us come to grips that we'd be exchanging 6 lost months for 12 happy building ones.

With that in mind, I'll do my best to keep everyone abreast of the projects progression...

Bill

Hi - just curious how your project is progressing. We live in SF but just finished permitting process for our house in Napa (oakville area) and am begininng the process of trying to find and bid a GC. Hope your GC is working out - would be interested in learning more of your experiences my e-mail is napaproject@gmail.com. Thanks, Will