Guys and gals, don't get to participate much but I wanted to throw in my 2 cents as I was fortunate enough to pick up three from the JJ Lowe's shipments....... The Mini White (very unique looking stalk when it splits), the Thumbelina and the Divine (picture of the bloom on the Divine shown here, all three blooms had different stages of coloration, really striking). The store I picked them up at, the Divine and Thumbelina both had active blooms so it was nice to confirm I was getting what the tag noted them to be. Thumbelina bloom aroma is simply wonderful.... strong citrus scent, great stuff! Oh, all three had multiple stocks, the Mini white has 7 points, the Devine and Thumbalina each had 5. One more thought before I go back to lurking...... great local source for the Tampa bay area with good pricing for Plumerias is the Plumeria Hut in Lithia. The owners are Plumeria nuts like most of us and the owner is quite knowledgeable. Most of my other Plumeria have come from Bree and Eric. Thanks......... Mark Adams

Two thoughts: Since no one else confirmed joboxes, I just wanted to confirm that the two inch notch is required to be cut in the counter. I was surprised that the original installation (the hole for the cooktop and popup) was cut on site rather than at the granite place. It is cut with a high speed grinder saw. It appears to be a risky opperation but the installers didn't seem to worry about it. Second: admittedly I don't do a lot of high heat searing or other roaring flame cooking; but I don't use the vent very much. It does work to catch too hot oil smoke and some bacon type spatter, but I think it misses some on the front burners anyway. I am very surprised that I don't notice that the ceiling (or pendant lights) is covered with gunk after 5 years. My point is that if you perform expressive high heat cooking, that a real, ugly overhead hood would be wiser; AND if you don't, perhaps a vent is unnecessary.

Your right on the Culinarian's price. That is with the self cleaning oven. It would be another $400 to get a color added. The manual clean is closer to $4K which would put it in the same price range as Wolf, Viking and others. I have looked at the Blue Star and Bertazzoni's. For the Berta's the added $500 for color moves it too close to the Blue Star and the Open burner Viking. Plus I really don't like the look of their grates, there seems to be too much space between the tines. But the build looks really high quality. Our situation is complicated in that we've had to replace some old appliances that were failing, but we aren't ready to remodel the whole kitchen and probably won't for at least 5 years. When we do remodel we may put in a 36" instead of 30". Also the whole vent situation adds another cost, at least we have the ducting to the outside. Who knows I may convince my wife yet that a pro style range has too many added capabilities. All of the GE ranges I've looked seemed to be of high quality in terms of fit and finish. We were at a summer rental that had a two oven stove with the small oven on top and that really seemed to be a good arrangement in that for single sheets you did not have to heat a large oven. The GE two oven units (gas or dual fuel) only come with an oven drawer on the bottom and it is my understanding that they take a very long time to preheat. There is also a Kitchenaid/Maytag unit that has a similar arrangement to the Frigidaire but both high power burners are at the front of the range. I want at least one high power burner in the back for boiling water and stuff as I have two young kids and want to put pots as far from their reach as possible.

jasdip, sweetie, you're just TRYING to cause trouble aren't you? ;) I get such a kick out of reading threads when gas vs. electric comes up. The hyperbole comes flying and reason goes out the window. Few acknowledge that there's differences between stoves and yes, even between gas. Propane has approximately 8-10% less BTUs per gallon than natural gas, so some arguments have to be made as to whether you're talking about propane or natural gas. I did notice a difference cooking on LP and propane than on natural gas. If I were given my choice, all things equal, and the choice was only one fuel, I'd opt for natural gas, but I'm also very interested in induction. When thinking about buying a new place a while back I seriously considered an induction HOB and a couple gas burners with a small and large wall-mount electric ovens. I grew up with natural gas in town and propane at the cabin. For over 30 years I've cooked on electric at home and a propane camp stove when camping and at the cabin. I'll say this without reservation: GOOD COOKScolor="red"> can cook on gas OR electric! People bring up their mamas and others, and my mother was a fabulous cook but you know what? She could and would go across the street to help out on an electric stove and guess what? The food was fabulous! I have several aunts who were all terrific cooks and about half had gas while the other half had the dreaded electric. (How did they ever live???) And I know a lot of people will be upset, but the stove does NOT turn a bad cook into a good, to say nothing of a great cook. I know people with $5k "professional" ranges by Viking and other makers and they have trouble heating a TV dinner. I can take my camp stove, oops gas makes me perfect, so let's clarify, I could take a hotplate or an electric frypan and cook a circle around some of them. With all due modesty, I'm a good cook, but I don't claim to be a great cook. I know many great cooks that use and know how to use electric. There's some fallacies that should be cleared up: Few people are truly prohibited from putting in gas if they don't have it, fer cryin out loud I'd put in a propane tank and accept the lower BTUs if I were so heartbroken as to not have gas. I have a gas furnace and gas water heater but have an electric stove and electric dryer. That's what was in my place when I got it and it's the same stove although I've replaced a couple dryers, I couldn't see (for me) enough reason to pay to run a gas line and yes I could have done it myself, I wasn't comfortable doing it even though I replaced a gas water heater myself. I would prefer gas on those appliances also, but I don't get all hot and bothered because I don't have it. As far as no gas user will switch to induction. WRONG! Check out the appliance forum, I've seen a LOT of people switch! LOL It's entertaining how defensive people get over appliances. Shall we enter the rage of central air vs. window unit? The other thing that makes me split a gut laughing about, and my sister said this just the other day, if the power goes out, I can cook! Well whoopie-ding! My response to her was that when the power is out in the middle of the night, the last thing I want to do is run down and start cooking a Thanksgiving dinner and a birthday cake! And the fact is, that many gas stoves DO require electricity since they won't release the gas without power. Now there are ways around this. Use a battery and an inverter or use a UPS. But again, it's the misinformation that gets spread on a hot topic. Growing up, our house CERTAINLY got much hotter with a gas stove. That's common sense. HOWEVER, that was when pilot lights were used on virtually all gas stoves. And it's true that gas stoves are far less efficient than (coil) electric stoves because of the direct contact of the element compared to the flame and heat riding up the side of the pan. I know that the gasfans (I won't use the normal term of endearment I usually use) will jump and argue this but look at professional kitchens using gas stoves and how the sides of the pans are burned up the sides. MOST cooks don't do a lot of cooking on the side of a saute pan. I saw this dramatically growing up and also while camping that the flames go up the side. I was one to turn down the flame to keep it on the bottom of the pan and of course it would take longer but use far less fuel. Another experience I had with this issue was when I was at some friends' new home and we were in the dining/kitchen area. There was a crowd at the housewarming and Martha was cooking some things on the (gas) stove. Her husband was standing by the stove, leaned back and the back of his shirt caught fire. That fabric went up like a torch, and no, not because of gas. Another friend standing there had the sense to grab the shirt and rip it off him and throw it in the sink. I was looking at them at the time and I did not see the fabric touch the flame but it goes to show how much heat goes up the sides of pans. And I suppose I'd better clarify that I'm not using this to say not to get a gas stove. OTOH, his burns were minor enough so we were able to laugh about it (I suggested he was now inducted into the "Pepsi Generation" and we had a good discussion about how home injuries can happen quickly. The whole point is, if you're used to something you can do fine. If you don't like something you will not be able to tolerate it for love or money. I almost always refrain from using terms like "always" and "never". I'm pragmatic. I try to deal with facts and common sense. Luxury liners have professional chefs onboard and they use electric appliances, not gas. I've watched Wolfgang Puck, Julia Child and others cook on hotplates, electric stoves and gas. Further, if you compared a high end electric stove with a gas camp stove I think many peoples' choice would change. So let's compare things as we can and recognize they're different. Many bakeries use only electric ovens. Many pizza places use wood! That said, to me there's only one rational drawback for me I can see to gas, other things being equal, and that is generally speaking gas appliances cost more than electric. And that's a pretty minor drawback IMO. Most people who have a preference though, don't care and will gladly pay the difference. And there's the gasbags, oops, gasfans who will argue that gas is "always" cheaper than electricity, which also is not true. But often you can recoup some of the cost but it depends on your local rates and as said, most people just don't care. Some people want Ford over Chevy or vice-versa and will pay more to get their preference. You don't have to rationalize, you say, I preferred it and got what I wanted. Personally I have trouble believing that people with a big preference of one over the other will be swayed by the fuel/power cost. In the big picture I doubt it would be that much. It wouldn't be for me I guess. I will also comment on the simmer question. The stove we had growing up had a center "simmer" spot in the center of the gas burner. That stove had an adjustment for the gas though we never adjusted it and never used the "simmer" setting. My campstove will adjust down so low I can simmer anything. But I've also used gas stoves that couldn't simmer anything. A lot is the stove, a lot is the adjustments when so equipped and the cookware can make a big difference too so there's no definitive answer to the question. A friend of mine had emphysema and asthma and had to rip out the gas appliances from all the homes in which she lived. Now in fairness, she wasn't the normal person, but there are some people who advise against gas appliances if you have children with breathing difficulties. I'd advise using common sense. There are also a number of people who advise against vent hoods venting inside because it can draw more fumes. Most residential hoods don't have the suction to be a problem in this regard in my opinion, but here's another example of if I had my choice, I'd vent it outside. Naturally, you should vent a gas dryer, furnace and water heater outside though. I will say, that my sister has a gas stove, "LOVES" it but does admit that her asthma IS affected if she's using it a lot. So I think a person should be informed rather than going by uneducated comments. There can be issues. I know this is long, but I'll say it again: GOOD COOKS can cook on gas OR electric and yes, even on a campfire or a grill! Red Green did his Thanksgiving dinner in the hub caps and under the hood of his car.... but I'm not suggesting he's a good cook.... OK Jasdip, are you next going to ask propane vs charcoal? (Taste the meat, not the heat?) Or better yet, real charcoal vs briquettes??? :)