I don't know anything about anything, but this is the internet so I'm going to jump in with my half-baked crackpot reasoning.

The items you describe are, to most people out there, luxury goods, not "appliances." Therefore their prices are inelastic. Rolex watches and Mercedes keep going up in price as well. Relatively few are made, and there seems to always be a market for certain expensive things.

On the other hand, I can still get a 30 inch gas range for $300, just like I could five years ago.

Regarding politics, I'm guessing just the opposite of Dodge59: appliance companies hate all the environmental/efficiency regulatory hoops they have to jump through. Politicians think they can legislate better technology into existence (ridiculous CAFE standards, anyone?). Unlike computers, where technology is used to make the product better at what it does, appliances have to incorporate technology to do things (save water, use less electricity) that aren't the core purpose of the appliance. Which means higher prices for the same capabilities.

Flame away!

Gary,

You are completely off base here...I would argue that pricing has gone up around 15-25%...The new Miele D/W costs $1249.00..If you bought a 48" Jennair fridge in 2006 for under 5k then you bought it under my dealer cost.

I am not sure what you are trying to achieve through your post but you are in essence saying that all appliance manufacturers are in cahoots when it comes to price fixing...Thinking back to econ 101 I learned that when prices go up...Demand goes down. Given we are in a recession, demand is already low and I will tell you that appliance manufacturers are doing everything possible to keep prices low...Reasons for price increases:

All time high commodity costs:
Metal and cooper are double since 2006
Oil - Double...these units have to be shipped..especially if they are coming from Europe(Miele)
Scaling efficiency is not available...They are not selling as many so their buying costs are up
Health Care/Unions other costs keep going up

Just my opinion

It has been posted that Gaggenau increased their prices 35% last year, We know other appliance manufacturers have increased their prices last year, and apparently Miele is gonna do it again, next month (See the post about the SZ 27" Fridge).

One hopes you are correct about the price of the Miele DW, is that a semi-integrated Optima? Seems like I have seen post on GW where some Miele DW's are over 3 grand now.

The cheaper appliances, like just mentioned, have to meet the same govt regulations that the more expensive do, safety features efficiency etc etc.

I can scan and post the actual sales invoices of the appliances I bought, but I have better things to do than make up "Phony Numbers" Yes back in 2006 one could "Deal" on appliances---now that Customer Right has been taken away.

If you think we as consumers have as much power as the companies that got the anti-trust suit going against Embraco/Whirlpool, more power to ya.

Prices of houses have fallen, Cars have not gone up near as much, I cut the rent on two of my rentals to help, I see no reason why the appliance manufacturers can't live in the same world/economy that we do!

I do agree with you about the Government messing things up!, alto I must admit You seem to have "Somewhat" the same attitude our present Govt has, "Soak the Rich", unfortunately that means Soak the Middle Class Too!!!

Gary

dodge - I think you age is wearing on you.

1. You got EXCEPTIONAL pricing on most/all of your appliances - nc was not saying you were fibbing - only that MOST IF NOT ALL people enjoyed those prices on those units in 06'.

2. The state of the world economy AND the cost of raw materials had absolutely nothing to do with these price increases. Did they ?

3. White goods go up in price every year- period !

4. Housing prices are correcting in reaction to historic obscene levels that were artificially inflated and unsustainable.

5. Gaggenau's 35% was a one time spike that is atypical of jumps by appliance co.'s It also coincided with their rollout of their 5 yr parts AND labor warranty , so most of the increase is simply adding the cost of the extended warranty into the price of the unit.

6.Car prices have an do go up every year too.

7. Miele has a $3k dishwasher , but that model WAS NOT available in 06' and the your optima is no where close to it. Compare apples to apples.

8. One can "deal" on appliances today just as much as in 06' if the dealer is willing /able to deal. If not , then the price is the price, just as back then. - Remember all the bankers and mort. brokers that were willing to "deal" back then too ! Look where that got us.

The idea of set pricing, whether that be "UMRP" or Minimum sales price is not new to the appliance world. I have been in the business for over ten years and this has been around before I started. Outside of your example of Gaggenau I think you will find that very few companies have had major price increases over the last five years. In fact most have not raised price for the last two years. Kitchenaid and GE recently lowered prices on many sku's...Our cost on a 20cf french door just went down $600.00...GE's induction tops are down $800.00. Companies are trying to think of anyway possible to lower price so that they can move more units...The expense of the worker and factory are not going down.

existing home prices are down because of excess supply...Outside of land costs it would be more expensive to build the same house today that you built in 2006....

It was me who mentioned Miele's price increase in another thread. But I forgot to mention that an appliance salesman told me that he has reason to believe that the SZ and Wolf prices will be going up after their current promotion.
I also wanted to pipe in and say I don't know how our government deals with appliance pricing in Canada (where I live) but I'd consider myself lucky if I were you (Americans)... here in Canada we pay much more for the same products compared to our American counterparts.
Here are some examples as I compare the Canadian price list to AJ Madison's website prices:
Miele LaPerla Dishwasher G2872SCSF(fully integrated, stainless steel):
American $2399; Canadian $2999
Miele K1811Vi 30" single door refrigerator (fully integrated):
American $5895; Canadian $6899
K1801SF 30: single door refrigerator (stainless steel):
American $6395; Canadian $7999
Miele 36" induction cooktop:
American $2999; Canadian $3999

I'm comparing Miele because they have a fixed price and I have access to the American and Canadian prices. I don't have the American prices for SZ/Wolf because it's not listed, you have to "call" for it. However, this is the case on almost any product you can think of.
So we're talking a few hundred to thousands of dollars difference on the EXACT same product. Now our dollar is on par with the U.S. dollar. I'd buy from the States in a heartbeat and save a ridiculous amount of money on our appliances, but I would't be covered on warranty. So I'm buying here begrudgingly ;(

Yep and from what I have read they are not allowed to price fix in most of Europe.

I kind of got "Raked over the Coals" on my knowledge of Economics, and another user telling "I'm loosing it" (Paraphrasing), but ya know, Old as I am, I can recall studying Economics 101, 1A and 1B (all of which I "Aced")
yet I don't recall any "Economic Models" that had price fixing built in to the law of Supply and Demand, and in fact, back then, most likely Anti-trust would have been used as the "Model" to discourage such behaivior.

Oh Well, such is life, today, Fridges over $10,000 ---how long before $20,000? Guess future generations will be carrying $1000 bills in wallets , like we usta do with $1 bills (now $20 bills).

Gary

While I object to UMRP - dealers should be able to deal - the rationale is that it's only price fixing within a brand and nobody forces you to buy that brand. This forum is not terribly representative of the public at large - most people don't buy Gaggneaus, Wolfs, SZ's, Mieles, etc. These are luxury items that no one needs and if you don't want to pay the price you can buy something else.

Same thing with cars - back in the 70's you could get a brand new fully loaded car (often with leather) for around $3K. These days you can barely get a decent used car for that. I made a decision a while ago that luxury cars no longer interested me and my last 2 cars have been Saturns. My current Saturn was purchased new in 2004 for $13K and I've been quite pleased. There was no way I was going to pay $30K or more for a luxury brand - but that was my choice.

dodge - it was a friendly jab, nothing sinister. The goal of just about any business is to grow and drive out/ bury your competition thereby gaining a monopoly. It usually doesn't happen but that's the general idea. They don't employ UMRP, but they do control the pricing because there are no "dealers".

As ,weissman says no one is forcing you to by an appliance from a company employing UMRP. As long as there is at least ONE manuf. of a DW, oven or whatever that doesn't have UMRP , the market remains free and flexible. Lets say you want a jet engine, who are you going to buy it from??? Your choices are pretty much GE and Rolls Royce, and their prices are pretty similar. Coincidence ???

I don't get all warm and fuzzy about UMRP - but I understand it's nature, and though I can't prove it I think it is better for consumers on the whole as it gives more people more access to products. Manuf. that can't control their distribution this way are just likely to not allow sales in the smaller hamlets and provinces and or those people would get overcharged if the price wasn't "fixed". those people would have to go to the big city on their own to get the fancy stuff. Rockefeller got broken up because if you wanted gas/oil there was no other choice to buy from - he controlled it all- this is bad and not a free market anymore. But Miele, Gaggenau, Wolf, ect.. are all separately owned and if you want a fridge or DW , you can buy one of thier's or another form a different company that is owned by other interests. Totally free market.

Does it hurt the seasoned wheeler dealer that has lots of time and skill to grind down the sales weasels ? Sure, but if a majority of customers were of this type, the dealer and manuf. would get pinched and dream up some other mechanism to survive, probably lowering quality and shipping assembly to the pennies a day Asian copy mills so that the customer could then complain "brand X" sure ain't what it used to be AND they put all those poor midwesterners outa work.

I'm sure we'll see 20k fridges - inflation will see to it. No $1000 bills, in fact paper money's days are numbered.

Refrigerators costing over $10,000 are available for the select folks who are willing and able to pay that much. I can't and won't, and don't have to.

Lookie here -> Whirlpool Satina⢠25.1 cu ft SxS w/Ice & Water $899.99

Lookie here -> Kenmore White 18.2 cu ft Top-Freezer $449.99

I know, Antss, we know how ya are and wouldn't change ya for the World! If we all held hands and all agreed on the same things would we be doing our readers here a real service. I just likes to present an opposing view just to give them a lil something more to think about.

Gary

A couple of points

1) GM and Chrysler filed for bankruptcy and Ford is up to its eyeballs in debt. All get heavy government subsidies in one form or another. Ford is less but still gets corporate welfare. Foreign auto companies take evern more corporate welfare than our own.Appliance companies also get corporate welfare but not to the extent of the auto companies.

2) The $400 range and refrigerator may meet all laws and regulations but get crappier and crappier every year.

3) Luxury appliances,apart from the durablility of refrigerator compressors, have stayed the same or gotten better. For example, the Sub Zero BI bins are much better than the 600 series and the ultrviolet air scrubber did not exist.

4) Price fixing is when two or more manufactures agree to sell similar items at a given price.IF Wolf,Viking,and Monogram agreed to sell a 30" AG pro-style range for $6k that would be price fixing. You are free to buy NXR for $2200 or that range made across the manufacturing line for $400 at Sears.

dee- are you certain about Ford's financials?

Reason they didn't take our uncle's money and file for bankruptcy is because they have a HUGE cash reserve, and while technically still in debt measured against the reserve, it's a very small percentage; I'll bet less than the ratio of your net worth vs. the debt against your largest - your home. They have also raised share vale by 300% !

Debt is not always a bad word, It's a necessary part of business. One just doesn't want the leve/amount of debt to get out of hand. I'll also wager that all viable business take one of your "subsidies" as you call it. Because of our tax code there are more than you can count. My own firm could be lumped into that broadly defined category and we are a smaller , small business. These guys generate tax revenue and payroll taxes too, don't forget.

Also, just cause a brand is controlled by UMRP doesn't eliminate competition for those appliances - the competition is just not price-based. A friend of mine was shopping for a Miele DW. She made the mistake of giving the salesperson her number, after telling him she'd think about it. She received calls every few days from the salesman, each call sweetening the deal - free ISE top-of-the line disposal with purchase, free delivery and installation (usually about $200 add'l), are there any other appliances she wants he asked, cause he could give her a deal on those, or other family members looking for appliances he asked, cause he could extend deals to them for free delivery, etc. She is in Chicago, where the competition is fierce, but my point is that just cause an appliance is restricted by UMRP doesn't mean a buyer won't get a good deal and can't negotiate on other things.

Antss-

Research Ford financials a little more.

Ford even borrowed against the goodwill of their corporate logo--the blue oval. I don't know the current debt numbers or equity ratios because I have not checked for recent paying down of debts but I would categorize it as "up to their eyeballs" in debt.

FoMoCo did not take Uncle Sam's money directly.

Ford Motor Credit Company LLC took a boat load of Uncle Sams Cash.

I would say most of the Fortune 500 take advantage of federal subsidies in one form or another but not all businesses that make money do.

dee - I don't have to. The shareholders report is on my desk. They borrowed against the blue oval in order to have that cash position which was BILLIONS of dollars in order not to borrow money from me and you without our direct consent. They put their money where their mouth is. Like I said debt is not always a bad thing. You likely have debt on your house and unless it's near maturity you have a sizable portion you still owe. But, you look at it as an asset because (hopefully) what you borrowed/owe is less than the asset is worth. Same thing Ford has done. DEBT is not bad.
Ford Credit is not Ford Motors and has it's own separate financial reporting. THEY even made $$$ last reporting period which allows them to pay back what they borrowed.

""up to their eyeballs"" - you'd be wrong.

"not all businesses that make money do." I'm willing to wager you 90+% do in some form. So what? Plenty of consumers availed themselves for cash for clunkers, cash for a new range, cash for a new water heater, cash for being unemployed , cash for insulation ect... So what?

Ford is IMO deserving of any federal money it gets because it has righted it's own ship, still employs 1000's domestically, and did not wipe out former shareholders in the process.

BTW - I do not drive Fords or am even attempting to tout the merits of it's products.

antss,

Ford Motor Credit LLC is a wholly owned subsidiary of Ford Motor Co. Different address same building.

Ford is no more deserving of our monies that most American businesses.

Ford has 117B in total debt vs a market cap of 65b.

GM has 9b in total debt vs a market cap of 57b.

A similar size company in the same business.

That is up to your eyeballs in debt.

dee- you obviously don't have a great grasp on reading financials. Debt to Market Cap is not the same thing as Capitalization Ratio which is long term debt PLUS the shareholder's equity (market cap). Your little equation above only show a co.'s ability to leverage, and since Ford already cashed in their # doesn't need to look as stellar.

You have also misread the # ; they have a total debt of about 89 billion, not 117 billion !

Simply looking at debt vs. market cap is pretty worthless since market cap can change overnite. If you judged Ford solely on your market cap equation you'd have missed the stock AND market cap appreciation of 3 times what it was 2 years ago.

Do they have debt? - yes, is it a lot in terms of aggregate dollars ? yes. Is debt necessary for business, especially manufacturing ones? yes.

Your GM example is TOTALLY WORTHLESS for a comparison as you have left out the old GM's debt, (HUGE), equity (LOW) and the vaproized shareholder value (also low at time).

Sure the new company's sheet looks rosy - it should as it starts with plenty of cash from the IPO and has little debt because it shed itself of all the crap and depreciated assets and kept the ones that can make it $$$ for pennies on the dollar thanks to the court.

Ford ,on the other hand is paying it's obligations with it's own money and out of operations, still makes money and has a rising stock price. So , you think management still stinks for taking govn't money???

You should feel lucky your uncle didn't MAKE Ford take money like it did with the Banks.