Spudakee Purple vs Cherokee Purple
11 years ago
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- 11 years ago
- 11 years ago
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Cherokee Purple or Cherokee Chocolate?
Comments (10)Thanks for that timeline. Isn't it interesting how a variety can remain true for so long while in its native environs and then within ten years of introduction to the rest of the world, evolve so suddenly into other expressions? ***** Yes, I do think it's interesting and I'm trying to think of other comparable examples, but this is not the time of day that I do my best thinking. LOL I know Keith has said somewhere that that the CP and I think it was CG that Craig sent him have not been stable for him. But other than some wrong CP being sold all three have been genetically stable for me and quite a few other folks. And Craig also sent me CP right after he got the seeds from John Green and I've grown it many times since 1991 or so and it's still fine. However, I'm sure that Craig is more likley to see any changes b'c of the large number of plants that he grows to sell at the Farmer's Market and possibly feedback from those. But the CP to CC change occurred in his own toamto patch. Randomness at work? Why not. And the CC to CG change occurred in Darrell Merrell's patch and until recently Darrell was growing huge numbers of plants for retail sale. Aha, I did think of one other more recent example and that's all the variations of some of Brand Gates varieties. I keep telling him he's growing on top of a nuclear pile, LOL, but seldom have I see so many different varieties arise in such a short time. And since those are recent ones, I don't know how they'll stand up to time as well. All the color change ones I've known and experienced that were probably epidermis mutations have remained stable for me. I think I still have a pink Cuostralee and a pink Great Divide, and both should be red as in the original. But I don't send out seed that's not what the original should be. And flipping thru the Yearbook pages I see other color change ones, such as Amana Orange to I can't remember what. The question that usually comes to mind for me when instability is discussed is whether a variety was never stable in the first place and it's just continueing to segregate or whether a change was due to DNA mutation and that mutation was permanesntly expressed afterwards. Carolyn...See MoreDifference between Cherokee Purple and Cherokee Chocolate
Comments (12)So why create and market a whole "new" variety just because the skin is a different color but all else is the same? ****** Cherokee Chocolate wasn't created, it was the result of a spontaneous mutation. And the choice as to whether to market a variety is the choice of those places selling seeds. If you want to talk about creating new varieties I think we should look at all the so called black tomatoes to start with. When I joined SSE in the late 80's there were about 5 of them, that's all. Then the fad started for the blacks and now there are over maybe 150 of them listed in the Yearbook. Are they all different? Nope. There are those who have done large growouts of some of them at the same time in the same season and they aren't all unique. The names may be different but the varieties aren't all different. We could say the same about the current fad for green when ripes. Where there is demand the varieties will follow. Names have been changed at some places and by some folks to try to indicate something unique, something different. I could send you to a website where Green Grape was called Eenie Weenie Greenie and Cherokee Purple was called Native American. But I won't send you there. LOL And look at all the wonderful varieties that arose by accidental cross pollination and then dehybridization from that initial hybrid to an OP state. And the same for those that were deliberately bred. I could make long lists of both kinds. Many commercial seed sites, especially those that most folks who grow heirloom kinds go to, get their initial starts from the SSE YEarbook as well as varieties sent to them by others. And several of those sites put a spin on varieties for sales purposes. What does one call a variety such as a well known pink that has had an epidermis mutation from clear to yellow so that it's now red? Is it still the same as the original pink? Nope, it's not b'c there has been a mutation. the DNA has changed. Green Doctors is a nice green when ripe cherry and last summer two different folks got a mutation with it such that the epidermis went from yellow to clear so now those fruits look like frosted grapes. it was decided to call it Green Doctors Frosted, and I offered it in a seed offer elsewhere and seeds are now available commercially as well as in the SSE YEarbook. What do we do about a variety that has become PL where the original was RL? Many would say they are the same except for leaf form, but I've written here many times that I don't think that's a reasonable conclusion b'c there's more than one way to go from RL to PL and more than one gene can be involved. Is KBX, the PL form of KB ( Kellogg's Breakfast) the same as KB? Are Spudakee and Cherokee Purple Potato Leaf the same? So there's a difference in creating a variety either by deliberate breeding as many are doing now, or by dehybridizing and making selections of naturally crossed hybrids to the OP sate, or as a result of a mutation, either seed DNA one or a cell one called a somatic mutation, and those activities have to be separated from what you call marketing, which is not in the hands of those OP varieties that are a result of those activities. Every year I send the best of my new ones I've grown that year for trial to a few commercial places where I know the owners and trust them and how they run their businesses. it's their decisions to offer them if they want to, not mine. Do large corporations also create and market at the same time? Absolutely and the variety Kumato is an excellent example of that as well as Campari and Santa Sweets and many many more. It sure is an interesting situation, but it also occurs with many many veggies and fruits, not just tomatoes. ( smile) Carolyn...See MoreCherokee Purple PL
Comments (25)Hey everyone ... Yup, got the Cherokee Purple PL, from our Spud bud last season. I started 6 seeds, got 6 beautiful PL plants. Kept 1 and sent the rest packing to friends and family. No RL's in sight. Everyone really liked them a lot. They were one of our top 5 tomatoes of last year. I meantioned it to a couple of friends, and what can I say, no-one can pass up ANY FORM of Cherokee Purple, lol. NOW - what I am unsure of is if this tomato was "born" mutated or if it was created. There were certain features about the PL version that "could" suggest a mutation, and that was the cracking spiral on the crown. But if you got RL Mark - maybe these were created ? Mark do your CP RL look like the original RL ? Could you post a pic so we can compare ? Again, I'm not sure. But I did save seed from my harvest - sent some to PV and some others in TX, and started my own in 2007. Everyone got PL. I am growing both the RL & PL Cherokee Purple. My saved seed for the PL, and a wonderful lady named "raisemybeds" Cherokee Purple RL seed. Mark, if you'd like some of my seed stash, I'd be happy to mail them to you. I'm almost positive we were going to trade for "something" this season, and instead of a SASE I could drop some CP PL seed in. On the topic of leaf forms. I do believe there are leaf forms that display both RL & PL traits. I've been under the impression they are called "Intermediate" leaf forms. I first noticed it on a Lillians Yellow plant. I grew 2 in a 5-Gallon pot and one of the leaves "looked" PL, but had "thumbs" and maybe a finger or 2 on each side. After some research, and "consultation" I found out about "Intermediate" leaves. (the Lillians X produced a beautiful medium sized bi-color). The most recent "Intermediate" leaf form that I can describe this season, is the "RL" version of Polish C. The leaves resemble oak leaves, but are not VERY pointy/serrated. To me, it points towards PL, and knowing it HAS/HAD PL genes its porb. a combo. Does any of that make sense ? ~ Tom ps. Flat Head Monster, and the SpudTula plants are for another thread Mark ; ) ... Here is a link that might be useful:...See MoreCherokee Purple
Comments (3)I think that it might be a good idea to wait until the fruits are ripe and first confirm that the exterior color is correct for the variety. What you describe as to size doesn't seem that off to me and I first grew CP the year after Craig LeHoulier got the seeds from J D Green and Craig named it, and since 1993 I've grown it several times. Below I've linked to a general Google Image search for Cherokee Purple so you can see some pictures, which you could also see at many many commercial seed sites as well. From the link you'll see some variation in size b'c there are so many variables that are associated with that such as inground vs containers, amount of amendements used and kind, how one grows their tomatoes, as in sprawl, cage, stake, etc., and most importantly, at least for me, what the weather is in any given season. You might wnat to cut and paste the following link from Tania's excellent tomato data base to see some more general information, and pictures: http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Cherokee_Purple Please note that variation in size of ripe fruits as reported by many at the above link. Tania has pages for over 3,000 varieties and it's an excellent place to find info, see pictures, note the seed sources listed for specific varieties, etc. From the above link go to the upper left and click on MAIN which takes you back to the home page and you can see all the ways you can search for varieties. Personally I prefer the alphbetical way but also note the other ways you can search. Hope this helps. Carolyn Here is a link that might be useful: IMAGES: Google...See More- 11 years ago
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