I know nothing about French antiques so my answer is far more general. But I think you should stop everything now -- and find a good museum or fine furniture appraiser and find out exactly what you have. Send photos to Christy's or Sotheby's and determine what type of restoration is appropriate.

You could ruin that piece so fast it could make your head spin!

French furniture is very popular right now --- and it sounds like you paid a very reasonable price for an armoire. But from what I understand, there are a lot of fakes out there so make sure of what you have.

A good restorer can often "even-out" a finish without destroying the patina. But even that may be determental to the value. Personally, the small split and the knot hole -- are things I would not consider repairing. Part of the character of the piece.

Note that I said "restorer", not "refinisher". Not the same thing! Investigate the firm that you use. Talk to appraisers and again museums for recommendations.

Good luck
Cathy

Perhaps you should not be furnishing with antiques? A fine old piece should be enjoyed for what it is.
As to the fact that you bought a French Louis XV Armoir for $1,000 makes me think that perhaps it's not really a fine old French piece.
Pictures would let us know more as would knowing where you bought the piece so cheaply.
Linda C

Thanks for your responses. I got a call from the restoration guy today. He agreed with Clink that the knot hole and split are a natural part of the piece's age and shouldn't be repaired. He suggested that they just give the armoire a good cleaning and then see where we stand---he thinks it may just need a preservative sealer (light shellac). He agrees with you both regarding the beauty of imperfection in something this old!

The restoration guy definitely thinks this armoire is authentic. He thinks it could be 18th or early 19th century. He said if it's a fake, it's the best fake he's ever seen (peg construction,the boards on the back appear to have been cut with a hatchet, wear patterns and wormholes, period hardware and many other signs of significant age). He also determined that is not oak as the owner thought, but more likely pine which was frequently used in country french furniture of this era.

Anyhow, it seems this is a very old country french armoire that would benefit most from being left as is. It really was not what I set out to purchase, but I happened to find it through a classified ad. I was hoping to find a french armoire to match an excellent quality 1930's era Louis XV reproduction style oak bed I purchased on Ebay. But now I'm thinking the armoire was a much better investment than the bed, so perhaps I'll look for a different bed rather than hoping to modify the armoire to match the bed!

I emailed the person I bought it from for another copy of the picture he sent me (I saved mine to word and cannot now upload it to my image host). If I get it I'll forward it to you.

Thanks again for you help!

Teeda

Teeda,

I agree completing with what others have said about leaving the armoir alone. But, I have to ask about something you said...

Why does the armoir have to "match" the bed?

Tricia

I finally got some pictures of the armoire. The finish in the photo looks much better than it truly is--it's actually a bit lighter, less golden and less even. The armoire is 81" H x 45" w x 23" deep.

Tricia--I guess I don't really need the armoire to perfectly "match" the bed, but I'm concerned that having two similar styles of furniture in very different "condition" (one rustic, one more refined/elegant) would end up in detracting from each. So I may try to sell the headboard now and use a simple upholstered headboard so as not to detract from the armoire.

Thanks again,
Teeda

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1373042}}

Here's a shot from the side where you can get a better idea of the finish (sorry, don't know how to post multiple pix at one time!)

Here is a link that might be useful:

Well...one of the problems with finding a fine piece of antique furniture....all the repros in your house begin to look somehoe "wrong"....and you have to go on the search!!
An I seeing traces of paint in the lower sections of the front panel?
That style piece was very frequently painted. I am not suggesting you paint it....but I am suggesting that the piece has already been "ruined" by a refinisher...but that could have happened 100 years ago.
It's a wonderful piece!...Enjoy it for what it is....and also as a starting place.
I don't know your background nor where you live nor your experiences, but the fine old "mansions" of the rich and famous are most often furnished with fine old antiques, fine newer items, great quality modern items ,like for example an Eames chair. IUf done with a good eye, it all looks wonderful!
So I would say, if you love the bed, don't worry about the difference in age. Pretend the armoire is a family piece and once belonged to Aunt Sophie and her grand daughter brought it to this country when she married uncle Nathan right after the first World War.
Works for me!
Linda C

Linda--I totally agree with you about "layering" different periods and styles. I love the feel of a home that is filled with treasures acquired over years and generations. If I lean towards any style in my own home, it's English Country because it gives me the flexibility to combine my flea market, thrift shop and auction finds. I've got 20th century hepplewhite reproductions in the DR, colonial repros in the FR and a total mix in the LR! I chuckled at your comment about pretending the different pieces arrived from various ancestors--I've given imaginary histories to probably every old thing I've ever bought!

One more question about the armoire, though, and then I'll let this go. You mentioned that the finish may have been "ruined" at some point. (Although there is no evidence of paint anywhere on the armoire--what you see in the photos is white drywall dust--the guy I ought it from appeared to be remodeling). However it is very possible that someone somewhere along the line did attempt to refinish this (the restorer says he doesn't know if the finish is original or not). So if the original finish has been altered, does that mean that anything I do to it now won't make a difference value-wise? (this was my original concern). In other words, once an antique's original finish has been destroyed do further changes devalue it even more or not? Thanks!

The reason I am thinking that it may have been stripped at one time is that most of those pine pieces were painted...pine was not "desireable" and only for the cheap country stuff, and painted to disguise what it was...either in a color or in a faux grain.
As for re-doing a piece that has already been once refinished diminishing the value....that depends on what was done and what you will be doing. If you strip bright green paint off of a piece and replace it with something close to what was on there originally, you will have increased the value...but if you strip the green paint and replace it with pink, you won't have made much change....and if you remove an old but not original finish and fill the holes and sand out all the mars and scratches and finish an old pine piece in a mahogany stain to "match" the rest of your furniture you will have have decreased the valus considerably.
Sorry, buy my advice is to wipe it down with a little mineral spirits to remove any dirt, and do nothing to it. It's wonderful just as it is!
Linda C

We have "antique" malls around here that sell just containerized shipments from Europe of stripped pine antique furniture. I'm very inclined to agree with Linda that your armoir was once painted & has been stripped.

From what I've seen in our New England location...these stripped Euro pine pieces seem to retain the value quite well. Dealers tell me that they sell to "decorators" rather than collectors which is a market unto itself. They are not as concerned with original condition. Many of these pieces are very attractive (as is your armoir!) and so there's a broad market to resell into should you ever desire.

I think you made a nice purchase that you'll enjoy for decades, if you choose to keep it.

Thanks for the pics.

Tricia

Does this piece look like it has it's original finish? Hard to tell from a photograph, but it looks like it has been refinished about 15 times, the last finish put on with a hair brush. First it needs to be cleaned by someone who knows what they are doing. Most people who work with antiques will make their own cleaning solution, not soapy water. Then, if possible, the crack needs to be repaired and a thin piece of wood glued along the length so it won't get worse. All the joints need to be made sound and the panels checked to be sure they are free floating. After that, a good french polish would be appropriate. Right now I'm lookinmg at Sotheby's French and Continental Furniture catalogue and I don't see one ratty finish in the whole 380 examples. These things need to be done unless you just want to watch it collapse. Next time you people watch Anitques Roadshow and the Keene brothers are in their showroom, take a look at the furniture behind them.

I've got a few questions for some of you, lindac, what are you basing a pieces value on ? If it's painted green and you paint it in a green close to the original color ,that's going to keep it's value ? I 100% disagree. Again, what value ,based on what ? If it's not a piece that has a signature attached to it or an original sticker it has no value. the piece will be referred to as "attributed to" a builder or a style. Without proper documentation it's just another old piece.
99% of what comes thru my shop has a value only based on what a person is willing to pay for that piece. Maybe 2-3 pieces a year come thru my shop that actually have a "value" .
Currently I have a Roux sideboard (that we are still investigating ) that we believe is a one of a kind. It's in horendous shape. It will be restored over a period a few years. it's value right now is probably nothing. That's how bad of shape it's in . When finished it will be in the 15k - 20K range. An almost ,but not identical piece is in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in the American wing.I'd say the two pieces are step brothers.

russmahogany, "a good french polish" your suggesting ? Why . You want to apply shelac over the cleaned surface ?
I would clean the piece with mineral spirits, repair anything structual, and then apply a sprayed on satin lacquer, and then a hand rubbed with 0000 steel wool , wax and polish the new finish to a soft, but reflective sheen.

Thanks for the suggestion, stocky. I will discuss it with the guy at the shop. As I said, he was only prepared to clean it and make any necessary structural repairs. He didn't recommend repairing the crack or knot hole. Any finish options will be decided after it is cleaned.

Russmahogany, I just want to clarify that I didn't buy this piece thinking I was going to discover it was worth thousands more than I paid for it. I bought it because I wanted a french style armoire and even lousy reproductions manufactured in Asia cost more than this. I'm not planning to get rich on it. But I also didn't want to do anything stupid to the finish. If I decide down the road that it is not what I want, I'd be happy to get back half or more of what I paid for it. Not something I'd likely be able to do with a Made in China piece. I agree that none of the french armoires in Sotheby's have a "ratty" finish like mine, but they also carry substantially different price tags as well. I'll just be careful to place it an isolated spot, so when it collapses it won't cause any harm to its surroundings.

Sorry. I thought you asked if a wax finish or a french polish would detract from the value. I meant to say no. What will detract from the value is if the panel continues to split. But I am probally mistaken. I acquiesce to the "don't touch it or you'll destroy the value" school of thought. I'm sure their advice is well thought out and revelant and you couldn't go wrong taking it. Thanks for reading my message. You have a nice antique whatever you do.

Hi all, This message is for Stocky. I too have (what I believe is) a Roux sideboard, also in rough shape. I am curious, what makes you think it'll be worth only 15-20K if well restored? There was a similar piece appraised on Antiques Roadshow that appraised for $50K even though it had been badly refinished. Had it not been, it would have been appraised for $80K. I'd love to see a pic of your and I'll send you one of mine for research purposes.

Best to all,

Vintage-e-babe

Here is a link that might be useful: Antiques Roadshow -- Is this a true Roux?

Amazing....2 people here say thay have very rare Roux sideboards, when according to reputable sources there are only 5 known to exist...althought there may be more.
A lot of the value in there things is in the provenance.
Linda C

Brian Witherall has seen the pictures of the Roux sideboard that is currently in my shop. I cannot find a signature on the piece from Roux himself. This forces us to describe the piece as "attributed to Alexander Roux" . I think the sideboard we have will have a lesser final value based on the lack of true authentication. I very well could be wrong. It all comes back to what is someone willing to spend on a particular piece.
If you get the "right" people in the room for a particular auction well then, you might be able to drive a price higher than expected.

Vintage-e-babe, I'd be happy to send you some photos of the Roux piece that we are currently restoring.

Ia it possible that you could post those pictures on this site? I would have no idea or could not tell you if it is a genuine Roux so my intention is not to make a judgement. I would like to see a beautiful piece of furniture that is not commonly around. No judgement here.

I'd be happy to post some pictures here. I'm not sure how,I've never tried. Give me a few days ,one I have a minute and I'll get them up.

It's by no means a beautiful piece in it's current state. it's really a mess, but I expect it's beauty to show itself one day.

Very interesting. Thanks Stocky, I look forward to seeing it! Mine is in storage, as I live in NYC and can't even fit it in my apartment. I am waiting to find a great furniture restorer who knows how to clean it up without harming any of the original finish, etc.

And for LindaC: I am not surprised two people who both think they have Roux sideboards have written on this board. Afterall, we're all finding the same websites when doing research and have found each other. If you google Roux sideboard, you find a limited number of hits.

Best to all,
Lynn (vintage-e-babe)

Kmealy came up with a good article about the damage being done to many antiques by uninformed people mistakenly trying to follow the advice they hear on the TV show, Antiques Roadshow. You can go over to the Woodworking site and the second response is by kmealy. There you will find the site. An article by Bob Flexner. If you read the whole article, you will see why, in most cases, the advice to not touch the finish is irresponsible.. Too many times, what we have here is the blind leading the blind.

Re my last post. Go to Woodworking, then to " Cracks in Wooden Countertop" to see the post or you can go on the web to "Masterpiecefurniture.com and click "design notes", then to Bob Flexner's article. Lot of good info for anyone interested.

This is for Stocky-

In case you missed it, there is a labeled Roux sideboard coming up at auction in August at James D. Julia Auctions. It is coming from a private collection. I'll be curious to see how it does.

I have tracked all known Roux sideboards and have found that (including yours and mine) there are nine known to exsist (four are in museums).

Meanwhile, Steven's Auction House in MS has pulled an unfortunate fast one. They sold a sideboard that they themselves "attributed to" Roux for $20,350 (by several accounts, this sideboard was NOT by Roux, although it was heavily carved). However, in their press release, they conveniently left out the words "attributed to." Now anyone searching for "Roux sideboards" will think that that is what a Roux sideboard sells for, when the only one ever sold at auction (4 years ago) sold for $80K! They are so shady.

Hope the restoration is going well!

Best,
vintage-e-babe

Hi vintage-e-babe,
We're moving along slowly with our Roux piece. It's clearly not something we can work on and neglect all the other pieces in the shop and our customer is well aware of this.
Thanks for the info on the supposed Roux.
In future send me an e-mail mstocknoff@yahoo.com . I still have your e-mail .
I have chosen to stay away from this forum due to many people claiming to be knowlegable about antiques and actually having very little knowledge. Nobody likes to be told when they are wrong especially those are WRONG.

Tedda 2006, that's a nice-looking piece you have there, and like somebody pointed out, it looks a lot like the stuff that first started showing up in mass quantities in this country back the 197Os, when it seems like every illegal loft in New York suddenly broke out in stripped antique pine furniture, macrame & ferns. Lots of historic paint--the kind that people go to great pains to simulate these days and that goes for megabucks if it's genuine & intact--ended up as toxic sludge at the bottom of a vat of lye in order to keep up with the decade's demand for "natural" finishes. Anyway, this is a handsome, well-proportined piece, and even in its current finish it's attractive enough to get by with nothing but that mineral spirits cleaning & a good coat of wax: not French Polish (which labor-intensive process would never have been wasted on cheap pine) and certainly not a coat of poly-anything. Just good old-fashioned paste wax.

It's too bad Stocky bailed on us. Sure, digital slap-fests generate a lot of heat and very little light, but I still think it's better to have a back-&-forth "dialogue" between Poster A who's all wet, and Poster B who knows what's what than it is to for those with knowledge to abandon the field to the most ignorant, since, like the poor, those folks will always be with us. I just ignore them.

And it's not even just with US. Those folks are everywhere, even in places where you would like to think that people know what they're talking about. I just followed that link above over to the Antiques Roasdshow site about the Roux-attributed cabinet and noticed this little gem of spurious scholarship: "The sideboard in Reno, like the other four Roux sideboards, was done in what was known as the Rococo Revival style, based on the Rococo Style popular in 17th-century England."

Wrong century. Wrong country. What a Bozo. And he gets paid for this?

Anyway, with "authorities" like that flapping their lips on TV in front of millions of people, it's no wonder that most people are full of misinformation. We're just fortunate that here on this board, we have a few regulars who have a broad base of knowledge that they're willing to share with the rest of us. It doesn't matter how many clueless know-it-alls there are spouting their nonsense: like Thoreau says "Any man more right than his neighbor is a majority of one already."

Regards,
MAGNAVERDE.

magnaverde, I'm still here , but I'm trying to lay low.

Hey Magnaverde-

I completely agree, but to be fair, Brian Witherell didn't write that article. Dennis Gaffney did and it may have been his mistake.

Best,
vintage-e-babe

Vintage-e-babe, I'm sure you're right. I've been mis-quoted in the media so many times I've lost track, and if I had a nickel for every time it's happened, I could buy myself a Diet Coke. Maybe--it it was on sale. And OK, the people who mangle my words and make me look stupid are my pals, not the media, but still. Besides, that's not the point.

The point is that it doesn't matter whose fault this little mistruth is. If Brian didn't say it (and I'm even not sure who Brian, is since I don't have cable and only saw Antiques Roadshow once, seven or eight years ago) then Dennis (whoever he is) should have known better, and at any rate, and whoever it was that made the screw-up, you would think that PBS could afford a fact checker--or say, just someone with even a passing acquaintance with the historical styles--to give their pieces the old once-over and catch this kind of thing before they posted disinformation to the Internet. In the words of our 14th President, Abraham Lincoln, "Who's minding the store?" M.

Oy Magnaverde!

My sis-in-law works for PBS & they are CHEAP! No fact checkers, I am sure! They film every scene in various friends and relatives homes. They'll turn your place upside-down for NO MONEY!

My husband works for Conde Nast. Now THEY do some great fact checking and spend the big bucks!!

And if I ever cash in on my Roux sideboard, I'll buy that diet coke for you!!

All the best,
vintage-e-babe

vintage-e-babe - I sent ya an e-mail a few weeks back.
please contact me mstocknoff@yahoo.com