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Reptiles & Amphibians

please ID this snake

18 years ago

I was unloading my washing machine. I had about three items left to remove, but this is what I touched instead. Had my husband remove it. We live in East Central Indiana. Please help me know what it is. We tried to get a picture showing the belly.

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Comments (9)

Day_By_Day
18 years ago
What a cutie. Grey or Black Rat? My monitor doesn't show the colors too well. Newborn.
coasterphile
Original Author
18 years ago
Is it possible for a Western Fox Snake to be on the East side of Indiana? What other snake has this checkered belly around here?
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I'm sooo glad someone IDed that bugger I have one just like him (maybe bigger) in my yard, watch like a hawk to make sure he is not in my way. when they (I have more one)are around I swear I feel them so I can usualy scare them away. Last week I was out potting Plants and I needed more Pots which were a little distance away from where I was working. I headed to the pots. Well I felt that there was one close by soooo I very carefully eye out as far as my eye could see, didn't see anything so I thought to self "she is in a bush somewhere so I'm not going to worry. Sooo I by now I'm at the pots. I take one step forward and all of a suddon this huge snake wraps around my leg and I just about died, nothing but blood curling scream comes out of my mouth as I doing the chicken dance and there are pots flying all over the. I know in my knower that some are not poisonous but I could still die of a heart attack. Try as I have I can't seem to not be terrified Of them. That lawn mower deal sounds realy great HEHEHE Hi Kara I went to your plant swap My plants are doing awesome! thanks sooo much for letting me come. Carmen
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Kaylyn, So much of what you posted here is completely false. If this snake were to bite you it would probably not even break the skin. Even if it did this snake is completely harmless (i.e. produces no venom) so you wouldn't get sick even if you let it chew on you. I have kept and bred cornsnakes and have been bitten by dozens of them. Catching a kingsnake and letting it loose under your house or in your yard won't do anything to protect you from other snakes. If there were food and appropriate conditions for a kingsnake in your yard, one would already live there. If you released on there, it would just leave. Saying the only snakes you shouldn't kill are kingsnakes and greensnakes further reinforces the fact that you really know very little about snakes. There are dozens of completely harmless species of snakes in most areas of the country. Kingsnakes are not normally black with white rings. They are only black with white rings in one small part of their range (i.e. the west coast of the US). People don't get mad when you kill snakes because they are scared of them. In fact, just the opposite is true. People kill snakes because they are scared of them. Some people get mad when you kill snakes because killing snakes out of fear and ignorance like this serves no purpose. It doesn't make anyone safer. In fact, trying to kill snakes significantly increases your chances of a bite. People are bitten and hospitalized every year in this country by snakes they were trying to kill. If they had just left them alone, the people would have been unharmed. Lastly, many people come here to learn about snakes so that they won't be afraid and won't need to kill them out of ignorance. When someone posts a question here, they come for information, not old wive's tales. If you are so pathologically afraid of snakes that you need to kill them, I understand. With a bit of education about the realities of snakes, you can dissipate that fear. But spreading fear and misinformation here doesn't contribute to the larger cause.
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Harmless Diamondbacked Watersnake (Nerodia rhombifer). Looks like it just had a big meal. Cottonmouths are not common in Central Texas, depending what you call "central" Texas. They are there, but the harmless watersnakes significantly outnumber them. I have spent a lot of time working with snakes in the Central TX area (particularly Gillespie, Llano, Bexar, Kendall, Comal, Bandera, Kerr, and Real counties) and have seen very few Cottonmouths and they seem to be restricted to a few places. Most local people felt that they were much more common than they actually were. When I lived in San Angelo (which is actually more centrally located than Austin or San Antonio, but considered "west" Texas by most), Cottonmouths were restricted to a few streams and largely absent from most bigger bodies of water.
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Eastern Gartersnake (Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis) Not venomous and completely harmless. Like most snakes, they will bite if harassed. The one pictured looks to be a gravid (pregnant) female. Gartersnakes don't lay eggs, but give birth to live young.
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wayne_mo
18 years ago
Interesting one.

Juvenile snakes can be a lot of fun to identify because there can be very similar patterns among juveniles before the patterns diverge between species among adults.

The Black Rat Snake and the Western Fox Snake are a great example of this and both are found in East Central Indiana. While telling adults of the two species apart is no problem, the juveniles look very similar.

I think it's a juvenile black rat snake. The belly pattern is certainly a classic fox snake belly pattern but the belly pattern is also consistent with a juvenile black rat snake pattern (juvenile black rats tend to have more of a belly pattern than the adults and there is variability in belly patterns of young black rat snakes). The particular shape of the arrow on the head is more classic juvenile black rat snake.

The nuances are subtle, but I think on balance the evidence weighs more toward juvenile black rat snake than juvenile western fox snake. I suppose the professionals would count belly scales to make a final determination if they had the snake in hand, but I think there is enough in the picture to take a very good guess.

My guess is juvenile black rat snake.

Thanks for a fun one to try to identify!
Day_By_Day
18 years ago
PS, the glove kills me. ;)
mikeygraz
18 years ago
Definitely a black rat snake (Pantherophis (Elaphe) obsoletus). Harmless animals...
thamnophis
18 years ago
Wayne's right again. It can't be determined to be a black rat snake absolutely, not at that age. Its stocky like a little fox snake, for example.

Below are links to both the fox snake and black rat snake

Here is a link that might be useful: Black rat snake and fox snake info and photos
mikeygraz
18 years ago
Hm...No, actually it can be determined to be a black rat snake from the picture and from the locality data. Fox snakes do not occur in east central Indiana, only the northwestern part of the state. It is a hatchling for one; and it would be logical to assume you have a breeding population around - of which there are no populations of E. vulpina in east central IN. If it were a adult, then the idea that it was a escaped pet could be feasible. Having lived in Ohio for much of my life, and now being in Nebraska, and also having extensive experience and worked with Black Rat Snakes, Eastern Fox Snakes, and Western Fox snakes - I can say with absolute certainty that the animal in question is Pantherophis (elaphe) obsoleta. Ask any Indiana herper with experience, and I guarantee they will agree with me completely.
~Mike
hoosierherper
18 years ago
As Mike said, the only option for east central Indiana is a Black Ratsnake (Elaphe obsoleta).
nanajoanne
18 years ago
yep he is a black rat snake. smart using the goves to handle a snake that you are unsure of! Did you know that baby ratlers etc (poisonus snakes of all types) have as much venom as a baby

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May be a long shot. Snake skin ID

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