Hi Glenn, Not arguing with the results of that thread at all, I think we could put something together here that could help backyard and orchard growers make better decisions about apple varieties based on a few more required criteria. Especially with an indicated USDA zone. Apple varieties have the tendency to grow best under certain conditions. I think you'll see the cream rise to the top again, just with more information. I know you came up with the point system, but that may be unfair to certain varieties since its such a small sample of people's opinions. Aim here is, simply, this is what grows best where I am, and is a favorite of others with a reliability factor involved.

There are three ranks below species accepted by the ICBN; in order of decreasing differentiation: subspecies variety forma The ICBN doesn't have any formal definitions of the term, other than that they must be used in that order (i.e., you can have a variety of a subspecies, but not a subspecies of a variety). The definitions are thus open to some debate and different usage by different botanists, so what one botanist may consider sufficiently distinct to be a subspecies, another may regard as only distinct enough to be a variety. Various guidelines have been published by various botanists as to how they use the terms; the one I have always found the best is that proposed by Du Rietz (1930, The fundamental units of biological taxonomy, Svensk Bot. Tidsrk. 24: 333-428) and Rothmaler (1944, Systematische Einheiten in der Botanik, Feddes Repert. 54: 1-22), and followed by e.g. Christensen (1987, Taxonomic revision of the Pinus mugo complex, Nordic J. Bot. 7: 383-408). Summarised, this is as follows: A forma of a variety, subspecies or species occurs sporadically within the distribution area of the taxon of higher rank, and differs from that taxon in a single character. A variety of a subspecies or species is to some extent allopatric [may or may not be restricted to a discrete native area] as well as mixed intergrading populations if they occur together, and differ from each other in usually more than a single distinct character. A subspecies of a species is both regionally and locally allopatric (but may intergrade where their ranges meet), and differs in several distinct characters. Species of a genus differ from each other in numerous distinct characters. Where closely related species meet, occasional hybridisation and introgression may occur (but does not always do so). A broadly similar definition is given by Rushforth (Conifers, 1987), with the additional point that varieties do not differ markedly in ecology or adaptation, whereas subspecies often do. Coming back to the cedar thread, the four taxa of cedars in the Mediterranean are a slightly difficult case in that they do have distinct ranges with no introgression (because of sea barriers), but they do not differ in several distinct characters, nor do they show any significant differences in ecology or adaptation (the biggest difference is that stenocoma is one USDA zone hardier than the others, not a huge difference). For this reason, I consider that varietal, rather than subspecific, rank is the most appropriate. For comparison, consider e.g. Coastal and Rocky Mts Douglas-firs, which do differ in several distinct characters, and also markedly ecology and adaptation (RMDF is 3 USDA zones hardier than Coastal), so much so that neither can reproduce successfully within the range of the other. This I consider an excellent example of a subspecies (if it isn't a distinct species!). If one follows traditional classification (Cedrus atlantica for Atlas Cedar; Pseudotsuga menziesii var. glauca for RMDF), one is left with an indistinct taxon with minimal morphological and no ecological difference classified at a higher rank than a distinct taxon with strong morphological and ecological differences. Resin

Yeah when I was making these crosses last year I was just messing around. I only got the idea of a garden web community tomato today. I see two ways of doing this. Either we think about the kind of tomato we want, and select varieties that possess the characteristics we want our target tomato to have, or we just take tomatoes that are of interest, for whatever reasons, cross them more or less randomly with each other and select the best results. With luck, we'll end up with a really nice tomato.

My kids were pretty picky at their biological mom's house, from what I'm told. I have no idea what their diet was like, though. They weren't all that adventurous at first but now, even the pickiest will eat a much larger variety than a number of adults I know. There are phases so I just ask them to try it. I have other choices at the table if a main or side isn't their thing. I accept their tastes in the moment but will always keep offering. They'll try anything and like a wide variety of foods and cuisines so, I feel lucky. The only "please don't make that again" foods are fried pig's ear (tasty until the thick, gelatinous parts) and eggplant (audible gagging due to texture). Great memories! Hahaha! One kid has a problem with creamy foods and any gravy and is the pickiest of the bunch. We've made progress on that. We don't go out much because we're five and the kids like adult entrees. Thankfully, they don't always object to sharing large plates or considering an appetizer.