I kind of agree with both halfdecaf an kailuamom's perspective: first, I think that we can't really fault the original speaker because we don't really know what he said. There are some versions of what he said that make perfect sense to me, others that don't, lets give him the benefit of the doubt and not attack a "philosophy" that he, himself, has not explained to us.The original post's vesion of the speaker's words made me think of how annoying rote "sorry's" are *especially* when they've been demanded of a child, given, and then abandoned. I'm thinking of the kid who spills something at your house and never says sorry except that the parent demands they do and then...nothing...they run off and play and the parent cleans up. Or the kid who viciously pushes your kid in the park and says "sorry" when told to but then the parents and kid walk away from you and your sobbing, snot smeared child. I think we would all be in agreement that a coerced sorry is not sufficient and that an educational method that relied *only* on coercion to produce the word but not on coercion or serious practice to change the behavior would be at fault. I'd like to read the speaker's words in the most generous way and figure that he's saying that sorry alone is not enough and that we have to work, long and hard, with kids to make them the kind of people who can realize that they have hurt someone else and take affirmative steps to make the hurt right. It sounds like kailuamom and I have the same kids, or the same parenting strategy. Neither of my children has any trouble saying they are sorry--and really meaning it. I don't mean "sorry for stepping on your toe" or "sorry for being a jerk" but like this "I'm sorry, mommy, that you are having to take me out to my friend's birthday party when you aren't feeling so well. Thank you for doing it." Or "I'm sorry that you had to make me soup and crackers (because I"m sick) when you already made a different dinner for everyone else." In other words, their sense of what they are doing, their duties towards other people, extend far beyond "don't step on people's toes" to "don't inconvenience people" and "don't take other people's kind actions for granted." I remember another mother in my baby group with my firstborn asking me "how I *made* her so empathetic?" and I just cracked up, you can't make someone empathetic. but you certainly can work on them, and have to work on them, to make them attentive to those around them. So sure we start out, even when they are babies, saying "oh! I'm so sorry you fell down! let me kiss it" and saying to them "oh, say sorry to little dulcibella for grabbing her toy." But as they get older our strategies for working with them and modeling for them have to get more sophisticated because they are more sophisticated. Modeling the behavior you want is the first thing you have to do but how many of us are even more self centered than our children? How many times do we demonstrate to them that we take the actions, gifts, griefs, etc...of other people for granted? IF the only "sorry"s they see are ungracious they will be ungracious. If they see their parents courteously deferring to each other, to the grandparents, to strangers they are going to learn (eventually) that "Sorry" goes a lot farther than just a word said after an incident, its a whole way of thinking about the situation and the other person. If you are still ordering at ten year old, or a fifteen year old, to say sorry you need to rethink your educational strategy because its not working. By the time they are fifteen most social behaviors should be pretty well engrained--or else they are rebelling against them for reasons that need discussion and airing. At that point they are also old enough to experience the natural consequences of failure to observe social niceties, as well as failure to be empathetic. If you are a jerk to your cousins or your friends, well, they won't play with you. If you are a jerk to your older relatives or older people, well, they won't do whatever things you've been counting on them to do. If a ten or fifteen year old kid behaves badly and doesn't say they are sorry--or even behaves selfishly and seems unaware of it--then just forcing them to say sorry (though it may be necessary) j ust isn't enough. So I guess I'm saying that I can see situations in which the original speaker is absolutely right--of course if he really said what was described I think he's an idiot. But there has never been a shortage of idiot motivational speakers. abfab

Ibelle I know what you are going through. When my DD was 15 her behaviour mirrored what she saw on TV. She watched a lot of shows where the young people were so disrespectful towards their piers and the adults. I could see that was how my DD was behaving to me. In my corner of the world, my children did go to a school that had very good discipline and they set a high standard of behaviour, one thing that impressed me was the boys had to stand back and let the girls through the door first. My DS is still at this school now. So a big proportion of the students are there because their parents seek out that sort of school. I think the suggestion of your daugher asking people over is a good idea. Just talk to her, ask her about her day, be her good role model. I know its very hard, particularly when they just really don't like you ! Its like tip toeing through a mine field. You never know when the mine will go off, and you don't know what the damage will be. And of course we are punching bags, like one of those blow up clowns that you punch and then they pop back up ! Sorry about all tha analogies ! I am sure things will get better, I think she is over the worst of it. All the best to you. Popi

sorry I didnt have internet for a few days so I was unable to respond... Some answers to your questions SS does have ADD. He has been evaluated by the school and by doctors. He used to play football and though he talks about it now like it was the best thing in the world... at both practice and games he would pay more attention to the car driving down the street then what was going on with the team. He sort of made one friend on the team but watching their interaction, it looked like the other kid was annoyed by ss. In school last year, several times when I was volunteering or something in school I noticed that he pretty much didnt talk to anyone ... at all. The couple of times I actually did see him talking to other kids... the other kids were picking on him and he was just kind of taking it. ((I've talked to him several times about standing up for himself but it doesnt really sink in)) I also put him in an art class with kids his own age... a local thing sponsored by a church... but still he only plays with the kids significantly younger than he after his class. I have thought myself several times that he might be a little more than just ADD. He is also extremey emotionally immature for his age, there is almost no connection between cause and effect, and (for lack of a better description) zero common sense. One on one with other kids he does so so. He is so immature that once his gaurd is down for a minute he says or does something "dorky" or "annoying" and the other kid doesnt want to hang around him or tolerates him until someone else comes along and then ss is kind of left in the dust There arent any family members his age, really there arent any other kids in the family other then ours. They are the only great grands nieces nephews...etc. I have my younger brothers and cousin. They are all over 18 but he really likes hanging out with them. He really enjoys music and wants to learn to play the drums. But that is kind of a solitary thing (music classes). I am considering putting him into beginning band camp this summer which is at the middle school he will be going to with kids he will be going to school with next year. I thought this might give him the advantage of getting to know some people before school starts.

Thank you everyone I know I am being a bit sensitive and probably a bit insecure and worrying when I should be grateful. Our living situation makes me insecure. I blame my mother lol it's something I deal with in therapy but I still have made any headway on it. I have lived the 'with money' life with my ex and even when I say, id rather have love than money any day, since I've had both, I still wish I owned my own home, in a neighborhood full of kid with my own flowerbed to dig in and my own walls to paint. It's a goal. We are close but it's been a long two years. Mostly because I have legal fees out the you know what... And I married a man that never planned to marry or have a family and so he never planned for the future. At our ages we are just starting and we have two kids to raise... One is half way out the door ... My son will be settled and in a home in a neighborhood before he starts school and he probably won't remember that if it weren't for hand me down clothes, he might have not have been dressed the last two years. Thank goodness for our blessings because we have always been able to pay the bills, afford extras for the kids and cover the little things that come up in life. I come from a home where we never moved. My mom still lives in the home she bought 42 years ago when she married my biodad. Our lives were always very settled and we all went to the same schools, had the same teachers etc. Grew up with the same neighbors and friends. Dd has moved 3 times in her life, has been to 2 schools and I'm just feeling guilty that we aren't as settled as we should be. I know people move all the time but for someone that came from such a settled background, it's hard to justify to myself my unsettled feelings. I know my Dd doesn't care, I'm sure she doesn't. She is too worried about what books she is going to read and what performance she will do at the talent show. With that said, she hears a lot from her dad about how crappy we live. I know he and sm are just trying to upset me and maybe even make her think the grass is greener over there. I would not say I am jealous of them at all but I feel insecure that he COULD provide a more stable environment for Dd as far as a home goes. Nothing more. I provide fine for her mentally, emotionally, financially. He has made comments that with the amount of support he pays we should be living in a better area. Couldn't be further from the truth but I internalize it and I worry that as Dd gets older, she is going to buy in to what he says to her. And she won't want to be with me anymore. It's just a fear I'm sure there is no basis for it but it is my feelings and I can't do anything but accept the way things are and move on. Thanks again for letting me vent here and giving me great advice. I really appreciate it!!!