Quick message..the baby is ok, the parents have been in to feed it several times. It's 7:55pm and we'll have the video on till we are sure the mother comes to stay with the baby overnight as it has done every night since the chick was born.

This is a nightmare. I can't remember who said it in the other thread that some birders are talking about HOWRs should not be protected...get me names and addresses, I'll email them this video and the one from last year. These birds are KILLERS!!!!

Linda...

At 8:15, as in almost dark, the damned HOWR came back and had gotten into the box by the time I was able to get down to the box. Dave watched the monitor and saw that it DID get into the box but turned around when it heard me yelling on the way down. And bold it was... it sat looking out the hole when it heard me on the way and just sat there till I got right up on it and then took a leisurely fly into the nearest tree.

My DH and I are in shock, to say the least. I'm hoping that Mama, who is now here, is going to settle down and STAY with the chick for the night.

This poor chick, what a day (the other thread has the story about the chick having ingested a loooonnnggg piece of grass)...and then this happens.

Guess what I'm doing tomorrow?

I guess since there are birds in the box, a trap like you use for HOSP won't work, right?

Why, why, why. Linda...

OMG Linda..you and that chick and Mama have been through so much...just want you to know that my prayers are with all of you tonight, and hopefully you'll have a happy ending...please keep us posted...I have a feeling you won't get a bit of sleep tonight..wish we all could answer the "why". So very sorry about this situation...

Donna

Poor Linda!! Poor Chick!! I've been following your story with fascination and absolute horror! I don't know what to say. What a nasty creature that wren is. And 7:30 seems to be her "witching hour". Most of the attacks have happened right around dusk, haven't they? Poor little TUTI. I would be just sick. I have nothing useful to say except to offer prayers, thoughts and support. Oh, and I'm calling the Pope - cause, Girl, you deserve a sainthood after this one!

It was indeed, me who said they shouldn't be protected! They don't deserve to be! And I guess this means I should keep my guard for the BBs on a while? I feel your pain, these birds are like HOSP, they wouldn't give up! this makes me wonder how long my guard should stay up! I hope she/he makes it! you're in our hopes!

If you are going to break the law anyway, why don't you just take the chick out of the nest and either finish raising her yourself or find someone competent who will?!?!? You can explain the chick was in danger and needed to be rescued. I'm sure your buddies can tell you how to find a rehabber.

Your sainthood prospects might be better that way especially since you aren't sure what wren(s) are causing the problem.

C3D

Would you believe that the HOWR showed up at the box at 7:58AM!!!!

I am working on getting the video clip of last night's attack online. I'll let you know when it's up.

Linda, the frazzled.

Would you believe that already this morning--Mother's Day, no less--the HOWR showed up at the TUTI box at 7:58AM!!!!!! I chased it away, I don't know if it actually got in the box or not. THEN it came back at 10:05 and 11:22!!!!! Ok, I have the video up of the house wren attack last night (about 7:30pm or so). I'll be posting another which shows the HOWR entering the box and then leaving right away because I chased it away.

Before you go to view the video (it's less than 5 min. long but it feels like it goes on forever), look at it =very= carefully as to where you think the house wren entered. I don't know how to use dropshots well enough but I'll be trying to set up a blog to record what happens from now till the chick fledges. Please feel free to leave comments.

On the video, on the right side of screen you see a grid which is a metal grid that I guess is supposed to help the fledglings get up to the hole when it is time. On the video, bottom of screen, close to chick is what almost looks like a bird's tail but it isn't. Just nesting material.

On the bottom of the screen is the left side of the box (looking at the hole) where there's a vent under the roof, it's about 1/2" wide. There is a pic of that vent (it's cloudy and my flash didn't go off but I think you can see what I am saying).

On one of the other photos, you will see what looks like a white chimney. That's where the camera is housed and there is no opening of any kind...my husband sealed the camera inside the PVC pipe and there is NO opening around
where the pipe meets the roof.

OK click on the link below.
You'll need the guest password which is birdbrain

Please leave comments there, too. If you have any trouble getting onto the website or the images, let me know here, please.

WARNING: the video is =very, very= upsetting.

Linda, the mentally & physically exhausted. ::sigh::

Abbreviations: HOWR is house wren; TUTI is tufted titmouse

Here is a link that might be useful: HOWR attacks 15 day old TUTI

Anita,

I have been glued to the video for days and I'm tired.

We are doing the best that we can, that's all I can say. The chick looks to me to be ready to fly as far as having all the necessary feathers and such; it's been stretching the wings and flapping them but probably not enough yet. It hasn't moved up out of the nest cup, though, and that's important so that it gets curious about what's on the 'outside.' If it had sibs, perhaps it would have been pushed up out of the nest cup.

We will keep the baby safe, it will fledge, and if the HOWR problem is not solved, I will block the holes on both of my nest boxes. That's all I can do.

Linda...

Anita,

I think there would be a lot of folks who can't watch the video all the way through. Believe me, if I had seen the house wren go =into= the box in the beginning, there wouldn't have been an attack and video of it. I just wish now that I had switched back to 'bird tv' earlier :(

Linda...

Lisa, does Bet 'lurk' here? I don't see her posting much. I can email her and offer her the video. I hope it can be an educational tool.

I will be posting some more video clips from the TUTI nesting (if you're interested, keep checking my dropshots site). I'm especially intrigued with how much time the TUTI mother has been spending with the chick and would be curious to find out if that's common or whether this behavior has been because there was only one chick? Certainly this mother has spent more time with the chick than any of the other types of birds I've watched like bluebirds and chickadees. ARE there any others where the mother stays overnight with the chick(s) every night from their hatching till their fledging?

I hope this will be the last post this evening. My eyes are really crossed from splitting my time between watching the video and watching the outside of the nest box. For some strange & wonderful reason, the HOWR has not shown up since sometime around noon, I think. But that only means I will be keeping my vigil tomorrow, too. Maybe Phoenix 2 will take that first flight! Don't want to focus so much on the bad stuff that I miss the wonderful stuff!

Blessings to ALL of you, Linda...

All I can say is - WOW. Linda, you have my undying respect. And, Holy Cowbird, did I ever get an ugly ball rolling on the other forum. Too new to know that you can't ask just anything around here without being called a killer. Jeepers. Keep up the good fight ladies. Sometimes following the courage of your own convictions thing means making enemies, I guess.

--Molly

Linda, I am stunned! I would not have dreamed that a HOWR would enter a box when a nestling is that old. Just makes me SICK! I'm sick for you and the dees and I know you're right about not being able to find a rehabber in our area. There were only two five years ago and both are out of the rehab business right now.

Here I sit with a box of BHNU who are MUCH smaller than TITU and I'm not sure if it will ever be safe to take the wren guard off the box. They will be 14 days old on Wed. and that *should* be old enough but after seeing your video, I'm not so sure about that now. I haven't seen a HOWR at any of my boxes but just across the street they've already thrown out 3 dee eggs from one box and three dee babies (dead now) from another box so they are definitely here. :( :( :(

Fingers crossed for that little TITU. I'm so sorry.

So sorry, Janie, about the dee eggs and chicks.

Last year when we had the HOWR problem in the last brood of bluebirds of the season, there were no HOWRs in our yard but found out there was a nest with babies two yards down and possibly one across the street.

This year, they are here. I've been pulling sticks out of several boxes since they appeared.

If the wren guard is working, I'd keep it on as long as you can. But then again, I'm not an 'expert' so I guess my advice is questionable :)

The little TUTI will be fine. I think she's strong enough to take that first flight. It is REALLY windy right now so I'm glad she didn't try it today but I'm hoping the weather will be nicer tomorrow.

Blessings, Linda...

May I make a suggestion about the nesting situation?

I know way less than you guys about nesting, but I do know something about wildlife. Would it be possible to remove the nest boxes during this part of the nesting season, to avoid House wren conflicts? Then, later in the season, open up the boxes? (This with the idea that the HOWR nests early in the season?)

I know no one cares about my unsolicited opinion, but when you consider killing native birds, you really are going in the wrong direction. Besides the illegality of it, it is a questionable control, in that other wrens will fill the gap like spilled water. And it is distasteful. Maybe it's a fight you should not be having? I know how much you put into the nestboxes, but you have to pick and choose your battles.

Linda, what is your habitat like? Is nesting sites at such a premium that House wrens have turned into serial killers?

Elly, I think you minimize the value of your opinion here. I, for one, am glad you weighed in on this.

The problem wouldn't necessarily be solved for many of us by temporarily removing boxes. Last summer in late June, I had a HOWR attack here in Georgia. That's pretty late in the season even for here. They nest several times a year so removing boxes would only hurt the early nesting birds.

Eliminating a native IS distasteful, I agree. Also illegal and admittedly a questionable control. This is such an emotionally charged issue on both sides and I don't know what the solution is. I don't think it will ever be solved to everyone's satisfaction.

I don't know if you guys got the part of the story where Linda did not have a HOWR problem in her yard until some of her neighbors hung up the pretty little boxes and encouraged the cute little birds to nest. Now she has to deal with them destroying the birds she has so enjoyed hosting. I lost my one nest to HOWRs the year the folks on the next property over did some logging. It was Linda's neighbors right to hang a box and let them nest as it was my neighbors right to log their property. It's sad how others actions can disrupt the things we hold so dearly and take away our rights to enjoy what we have worked so hard to achieve. I know you guys can feel Linda's pain, I also know killing a native IS distasteful and illeagl. I respect you standing firm on that. I also respect Linda's right to have a peaceful yard again. You are right Bell.....these kind of things will never be resolved to everyones liking, there really is not a good answer.

Elly, I will answer your questions in a bit. I just want to write down what kept me up half the night writing.

This IS an emotionally charged discussion. I propose we all calm down a bit and think carefully--I apologize for some of the things I've said in this thread--I was often speaking from the heart not the head. I think that there is a more basic issue here than what should/could be done about 1 or more HOWRs in my area. We need to talk about videos in nest boxes and what that does to our roles as 'monitors'.

I think that we are missing something here and that is that with the ability for us to buy and place video cameras in our nest boxes, we move from one level of monitoring to a completely different level IMO. And I think it's uncharted territory in terms of how much SHOULD we intervene with ANY problem that we see, whether we are watching the inside of nest from the comfort of our living room or are physically attending to nest boxes outside of the house.

I've been going over my experiences since I put the first video camera in a nest box. It was August, 2006, and I immediately got a nest of bluebirds. That year there were 2 broods in that box and everything was perfect: no other birds around, 5 or 6 perfect babies in each brood with perfect fledgings. I recorded tons of hours of video.

I said this in 2006 (it's on the sialis.org website): "I watched the mother build the nest, lay the eggs, sit on the eggs for long hours. I saw one of the babies in the final stages of hatching and two more after they had just hatched. They've done all that on my TV, in my living room, in my world. Their world and my world are together for now." And that's exactly what the experience is like for me, esp. since I am on disability and have a lot of time to watch and record the video. Some people with videos in the nest boxes don't have the same amount of time to view the video and perhaps their involvement is at a slightly different level.

In 2007, we put in a second video nest box and in the one in the front yard there were no nests for the first 2 cycles (In the second box, I watched a beautiful pair of chickadees raise their brood and there were no problems at all with them). I found out that was because my neighbor put up 1) a bluebird box too close to mine and the blues decided that they would rather live there; 2) a cute little birdhouse just house wren size (he wanted birds that would provide 'action' ). That was when the house wrens had their first impact on MY monitoring experience. After two broods across the street where both bluebirds and house wrens raised their broods, house wrens pushed out the bluebirds the day after the last chick in the 2nd brood fledged and the blues came to my nestbox in the backyard--OUR territories, yards/trails etc, don't correlate with those of the birds, of course. During the same time, I found out that another neighbor, two yards down, had fed & housed successive broods of house wrens for several years. They are 'cute', my neighbor told my husband. And they are.

There was a tragic first brood in my backyard box where the mother laid only 2 eggs; one hatched and one didn't. I looked for a rehabber for the chick but there were none anywhere near me. I tried to read what I could about keeping the chick alive but it died in my care a few days later. My heart hurt for that chick. Should I have left it in the box to die naturally?

It was the final brood of bluebirds that 'pushed' me from observer to ?? don't even know what to call the role =I chose.= A day after 6 chicks hatched, I =viewed= house wrens throwing the newly-hatched chicks out of the nest box--I only had the video clip (posted on the sialis website) because I was recording the video during the daylight hours. Because I had the video on, I SAW it happening. Should I have done nothing? If I had, the next time my 4 dogs would go outside, I shudder to think what would have happened to the chicks esp. if they had lived. If I had not had the video, they would have died a horrible death...all of them.

But I found them =because= of the video and I returned the chicks to the nest two days in a row. They all lived and all fledged. That does not make me a saint or any better than anyone else. I SAW something that I could change and I did it. It felt like the right thing to do. I still stand behind my decision.

I'll stop here. Should someone who has a nest box camera intervene when they see something horrible happening on their TV or computer screens??

As for the current TUTI chick, I have done nothing, nor will do anything, but chase the HOWR away should it come back before the chick fledges (which may be today). I've talked about doing other things but again, I was talking from my heart not my head. Because I am so =confused= about my role, because the HOWRs now rule the neighborhood through no fault of my own, because I've let some of you make me feel 'dirty' and 'bad', when the chick fledges I will plug the holes of both nest boxes. There's a pair of bluebirds who want the box in the back but they'll have to go somewhere else, somewhere under the same influences as now, a place where I won't be able to monitor with or wo. a video. At least we now know that HOWRs =will= attack chicks that are as old as 15 days.

Linda...

Elly,
Lots to think about in your recent post.

As far as looking at the big picture, I have been thinking about our (humans) intervention in birds' lives as basic as

1. Should we feed birds in the summer? When I was growing up, we only put out food if it was an especially hard winter

2. If we do feed them year round, should we be feeding 'exotic' foods like mealworms?

3. Should we put up ANY houses?

Just thinking...

Linda...

Elly, great points made by you. We folks in GA have been so lucky in the past regarding HOWR because they "used" to leave our area in the early spring. In my field guides there are referred to as "boarder-line spring" in N. GA. I felt terrible when I read about the attacks my northern internet friends were dealing with when they arrived there and was relieved that *I* did not have to deal with them. Over the last 2 to 3 years..... that has changed and unfortunately I'm sure we'll see more and more HOWR remaining in our area throughout the season. That might change my attitude about offering nest boxes, no doubt about it. So far, I have not experienced a WREN attack in my yard or any of my three boxes. So far, I haven't lost an egg or a single baby to a wren attack BUT I've witnessed it 100 yards from my own yard so I realize it's a future possibility.

My advice to others who can't "safely" host box nesters has always been to "take down the box and let them find a tree cavity" and now I realize I might have to take my own advice. I dread that day, if it comes, but I think that is what I'd do.... remove my boxes.

Linda, a good friend gave me an inbox cam for Christmas and it's still sitting in the box it came in. I am absolutely sure that *I* could not deal with that much information. There ARE times I'd give anything to "see" what's happening in one of those boxes but I'm afraid I'd see some things that might lead me to take a course of action that I should not take. I don't know, it's a hard call.

The winds are dying down today so maybe THIS will be fledging day for your little TITU! Fingers crossed!

Hi Linda,

Mine is just an opinion.

But this I know: Without nestboxes, the Eastern bluebird population would not have recovered from their population decline in the early part of the 20th century (a decline due largely to competition with invasive non-natives for snags).

So it varies, according to the species. TUTI and BCCH do not need our help, but it sure is fun to offer it!

I am of the opinion, moreover, that natural food sources (flowers, berry bushes, and the delicious bugs that inhabit them) are better and less maintenance than feeders, which create a kind of unnatural competition. If there is a healthy backyard full of bugs, you don't need to serve them up on a plate, and more importantly, the young birds learn better how to hunt and forage.

Just my opinion. I am not criticizing anyone.

Its not just your TT here, this is happening all over. House Wrens are becomming a VERY big problem.

Check out this site http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-13.pdf
I know Texas applied to get rid of cowbirds.

It appears if a native bird has a documented heavy predation record on other natives, a group (or individual) can pay $100.00 and go through the necessary channels to obtain a permit.

Like I said before, HOWRS are doing more harm than HOSPS.

Elly I for one always respect your opinion whether I agree with you or not. For the most part I normally agree with you 100% except that I think the TUTI and BCCH do need our help. Although they are not what the dnr here in MI calls endangered, there are less and less of them every year mostly due to development and removal of suitable habitat i.e. woods and trees period, snags for sure and native trees, shrubs, and plants and of course mostly non native competition. Here right where I live while there is still a lot of habitat that could support them there are not nearly as many of them as there could be. I have had year round feeders here for ten years and until last year I have never seen Tuti, Bcch Rbwp or Wbnh fledglings ever and last year only one of each. I do attribute seeing them at all to trapping and eliminating hosp because we have lost many acres of woods here during that same time. The only one of these that has ever used one of my boxes are Wbrnh last year. I've never seen Hairy or Downy wps with young ever. Problem there is only one pair of each and I know this area could support more of them. I know most fledglings don't make it for a million legitimate reasons and that is fine with me as long as the losses are natural but there are tons of wrens around here and plenty of natural nesting for them. My neighbors have wren boxes that were never here until years after I had my boxes up and this has caused more and more wrens. I don't allow them to nest in my yard. I have only used passive control measures. I have never killed a wren or destroyed an egg. My daughter has heard me say I would ring their neck a million times though. Her response "Yeah right Mom you say that every year and you say that about the squirrels too" I will say it again and again as my daughter knows I will not harm them. I'm sure Linda is the same. We all say things we don't really mean when we are hurting. My Mother used to tell us she would "skin us alive" We never even thought that it was cruel and abusive. We just knew Ma was good and mad at us. I don't mean angry either. She was mad!!!LOL Elly I know YOU have not jumped on her but some other people sure have. She's just venting. Some people like to make trouble where there is none. Let it go. I'm sure she will make up her own mind what she needs to do about the situation no matter what other people say. Linda I'm with you whatever that may be. I feel your pain.
Cathy

That os a depredation permit. And no, you just can't go apply for one, get it and "get rid" of "undesirable" birds. Farmers and fishermen who claim their crops are taken by birds apply for these permits and then get to kill hundreds or thousands of birds.

There is little documented evidence, far as I know, of House wrens actually threatening the population of any birds.

I'm leaving now : )

Sorry Cathy, I did not see your message! I am at work and will check in later : )

Cornell Lab of Ornithology uses citizen "scientists" to help them gather research. It is a good idea, I think, to perhaps start a dialogue with them on the subject?

Now I really have to get back to work : )

I am very pleased to announce that Phoenix 2 (19 days old), or whatever her 'true' name is, took her first flight at 1:55pm ET. She'd been teasing me for 2 days by walking all around the nest and getting closer and closer to the hole and finally, she just jumped up, stuck her head out only once that I know of, then put her body in the hole and looked all around...I LOVE to watch that moment of decision! "Is the Outside that I don't know better than the Inside that I DO know????" Then, as I cheered her on from inside, she pushed off. She fluttered around for a mo and landed on the top of the baffle below the box. I headed out of the door the same time a delivery truck pulled into my driveway so when I approached the chick, it flew into the safety of the nearest tree. I talked to it, told it to have a good life and not be a stranger :) When the parents came, I left. Of course, the delivery guy was there for part of the time I was talking to the bird in the tree :)

What kinda shocked me is that when she put herself out of the box, she looked like a mini TUTI! With the focus of the camera, you can't see the tuft.

Good thing she decided to go today cause I cannot go up and down those steps one more time (my knee & back are screaming at me). But it was worth it. I still don't have a clue why the HOWR visited that box so many times. And yesterday morning, a pair of bluebirds were hassling the TUTIs (chased them away 7 times yesterday morning).

BTW, as the chick flew out, a HOWR flew up to the hole but flew away when I approached. What in the HECK does the HOWR want? I'm going to leave the nest in place and the camera on for a few days so I can see if the HOWR goes in and what it would do.

Thanks to ALL of you for your support and feedback. I hope that we have all learned something about bird behavior and how to protect the birds in our 'circle'. I know that I learned a lot.

Fly high, dear chick, fly safe...I miss her already :)

Blessings, Linda..

Linda..I've read this thread so many times, I think I miss her too! So very happy about your little TUTI...Bless it's heart and yours too!

Donna

YYYYYEEEEEAAAAAA!!!!!!! Linda you have done it again! I am wishing you peaceful nestings from now on.....I don't think your body can take much more abuse! ;)

Yippeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!! I sure am glad for her and for you too! Now go wash your face and sleep well tonight.
Cathy

Oooooooooooo! Congratulations Linda and your chicky!

Blessings! :-)

C3D

Linda, congratulations to BOTH of you! :D What a HUGE relief! I think I'm going to remove the wren guard from the BHNU nest box tomorrow. They will be 14 or 15 days old and are fully feathered. I'd hate to have them try to fledge with the wren guard still on the box.

So glad your little TITU went safely! :D

Woohoooooooooooooo Linda! Please let us know the wren's next move.

Janie, I took the guard off my blues today, day 15. The female is still swooping low to enter the box--much lower than she has to now without the guard! It's pretty cute to watch.

Congratulations Linda!! Time to have a drink to celebrate and relax finally!! What a relief!

Tracey

COngrats Linda!! I am so glad to hear your little TUTI made it into the big world. Hope you get to see it again around your yard!

Donna

I am so happy this story has a happy ending.I cannot get that video out of my mind.As I have said here before,I will not let HOWR nest in my boxes.Enough said.Hope the rest of the season goes well.....Jane

I guess the story is not over...as I said, little TUTI left at 1:55pm.

At about 4:10pm, I heard a rustle in the birdless box (I left the nest there for now). The HOWR FRANTICALLY started to de-construct the nest. Grabbing nest material--fur, straw, grass, leaves--out of the hole! It was in a frenzy!!! It would grab something and almost throw itself at the hole to get the material out! If it went to grab a chunk of fur too big to take out, it pulled and pulled at it till it broke it down to a size that would go out the hole.

Fast and furious.

I did catch this frenzy on tape so I'll be putting that online in the next few days. I closed off the box for today. I need some rest.

I can't imagine how such a little bird can do what I saw it do: peck eggs and throw them out, peck chicks and throw them out, attack almost-fledged chicks, and de-construct a HUGE TUTI nest!

Blessings, Linda...

Yes Linda, you do need some rest...so please take care of yourself...many blessings to you as well!

Linda, may I suggest demon possession as a diagnosis for your wacky House Wren?

Congratulations on Little P2. May she fly happy and free of her House Wren menace all the days of her adorable little life! Excellent save (over and over...and over again)!

Molly