Hi, Lilacs
We've had some of the same problems this year. I've just been composting the BER 'maties as soon as we find the damage. I remember a former neighbor telling me he thought BER was due to too much water when the plants could not use it. ??/dunno
I have seen a spray @ a local nursery that is supposed to prevent the problem, but you are supposed to spray the BLOSSOMS! go figure... I wish us both success. ~Iris

I just came back in from checking my tomatoes again, and five of my beautiful Sausage tomatoes are dying from blossom end rot! Will that spread to the whole plant? Should I remove those tomatoes and throw them away? Can they be composted? Is there anything I can do to prevent it from happening to the other 18 tomatoes?

I checked the FAQ, and it didn't seem to hold out much hope for tomato plants stricken with BER. It said that it was a calcium deficiency, but adding calcium doesn't do much good because it's already too late. Am I going to lose my plant? I've been feeding once every couple or three weeks with Miracle-Gro tomato food. I have some bone meal, but is it too late for that?

*****

BER is a physiological condition and is not due to an infection and so plants don't die and BER therefore is not able to spread from plant to plant.I don't think there's anything in the FAQ that says tomato plants die when some fruits have BER.

You can do whatever you want to with the BER damaged fruits. Some cut out the bad spot on the bottom and eat them, but I don't b'c I think they taste funky.

BER can be the result of many different kinds of stresses and most of those were outlined in the FAQ and you'll also find a recent thread here on BER, it may be on the second page now, that details even more stresses that can induce it.

Actually a search will turn up TONS of threads on BER. ( smile)

Perhaps the two main stresses that can induce it early in the season are uneven delivery of water and too much N or growing in too rich soil.

The problem is NOT lack of Ca++ to the plant, that is, Ca++ is taken up by the roots, but with various stresses there's maldistribution of CA++ within the plant and that's shown at the bottom of fruits where the characteristic spot appears.

BER usually goes away with time as the plants further mature and can better handle the various stresses that can induce it.

There are two exceptions to what I said about Ca++ uptake. There are very very rare circumstances where the soil is devoid of Ca++ and also very rare are acidic soils that bind up the Ca++ in the soil. A good soil test can help in that regard.

So I think if you go back and reread the FAQ you'll see that BER is not a disease, it can't be spread, plants aren't killed by it, and suggestions such as mulching to help ensure more even water delivery were made.

Hope that helps.

Carolyn

I have seen a spray @ a local nursery that is supposed to prevent the problem, but you are supposed to spray the BLOSSOMS! go figure... I wish us both success. ~Iris

****

Iris, I think you've mixed up two different products. ( smile)

Blossom Set is sprayed on the blossoms when temps are too cool to allow that to happen easily. So it was devised for areas like the PNW where Springs are cool. It doesn't do anything when temps are OK for pollination. What it does is to induce what's called parthenocarpy b'c with no pollination/fertilization there are no to few seeds in the fruits and there are other abnormalities that can also occur.

Stop Rot is the product that says it can prevent BER but no one I know thinks that. LOL You're supposed to spray it on the foliage and fruits. Fact one; no molecules can get thru the fruit epidermis so why even spray it on fruits. If molcules got across the epidermis tomatoes would blow up every time it rained heavily.

Studies done to show whether or not CA++ sprayed on foliage can help have not been conclusive.

And since the problem is not getting CA++ into the plant, rather, it's the maldistribution of CA++ within the plant that's the problem, I don't see how Stop Rot can do much at all. First comes recognition of the stress factors as I see it and dealing with them first.

Carolyn

BER discussions linked below. A review of them will be very informative. ;)

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: BER discussions...

Most of the standard replies to those experiencing BER do not apply to people growing in self-watering containers.

Take SW containers (or even regular containers) and couple it with a susceptible variety and you can have lots and lots of BER infected toms.

Did you add dolomite to your potting mix? I am so used to following Earthbox directions for growing tomatoes in self-watering containers that I add it automatically even for other containers. They recommend 2 cups per earthbox--I worked it out to about 2 cups to a big bag of Lamberts which is 85 quarts.

But even with that some varieties are just very susceptible to BER when growing in containers. Hopefully some will grow out of it but I wonder if your sausage plant is highly susceptible like a roma is.

The usual culprit, irregular watering, shouldn't be a factor in SW containers. Lack of calcium may very well be a problem
--all purpose MG doesn't even list calcium on the label which always puzzled me. Again EB don't recommend MG as they utilize a fertilizer strip using granular fert.

The TYPE of nitrogen (ammonium, urea, potassium nitrate, etc.) influences BER in a soilless medium, ammoniacal nitrogen is supposed to aggravate it.

The question is what to do now?

I have read that calcium sprays aren't effective too but Bill (hoosier.) just linked a study where there was some benefit to spraying the fruit (as a matter of fact it was the fruit and not the leaves that particularly had to be sprayed) but this had to be done early on. No harm in experimenting on a few.

If you check with the earthbox forum--lots of discussion on this topic. I believe the EB people are recommending 1/4 cup of lime (hydrated???) in a gallon of water and you are supposed to put it down the tube or in the water reservoir. But double check on that forum. I do think that once again this would take some time to work.

Again I have grown all sorts of varieties in SW containers with no BER at all (with the added dolomite) but certain varieties are just hard hit. All the top brands of soilless mixes have dolomite added but I add additional as per recommendations.

Most of the standard replies to those experiencing BER do not apply to people growing in self-watering containers.

With regrets farkee I have to disagree just a bit.

All my plants grown in EB's - the originals - never see any added lime despite the company's recently added recommendation - except for the lime that is already present in the quality soil-less mix used. And no BER either.

Granted, some varieties, Romas and similar shaped fruits, are more prone to developing BER, but even they grow out of it once the plant matures. I have 2 San Marzanos and 2 Amish Paste in EB this year - no BER on either.

Even self-watering containers can supply inconsistent soil moisture levels IF the gardener doesn't supply the water on a regular basis, waters the containers from the top instead of from below as intended, doesn't mulch the containers, uses too small a container, uses a poor quality mix or even worse uses dirt, if there is excessive rain, if pest and/or disease problems develop and aren't corrected, if any outside stress is not identified and corrected when possible, etc., etc. (To all those I will add uses softened water to water the plants but that is just my personal observation.)

Bottom line: BER is BER regardless of where or how the plant is grown and the underlying cause of it is the same - the inability of the plant to properly supply the already available nutrients to the fruit during all stages of its development. And that inability to supply always comes back to stress and water.

Use your extra lime or the aspirin, Tums tablets, and egg shells some swear by if it makes you feel better but don't credit them as a "cure". Meanwhile also eliminate what stresses you can control, be patient with the ones you can't control, allow the plant to mature and adjust to its growing conditions and the BER will go away.

But please do NOT panic, don't write off the entire plant, don't equate it to a communicable "disease", and don't buy into any of the old wives tales and blossom spray marketing ploys.

Dave

I have read that calcium sprays aren't effective too but Bill (hoosier.) just linked a study where there was some benefit to spraying the fruit (as a matter of fact it was the fruit and not the leaves that particularly had to be sprayed) but this had to be done early on. No harm in experimenting on a few.

*****

The problem I have with that, and I hope Bill will respond, is that molecules don't get across the tomato epidermis.

If they did then irrigation or rains would be absorbed and the fruits would burst if they were anywhere's near mature and the fruit was already at its maximum size and the epidermis could no longer expand.

Carolyn

Dave, of course you have to keep the self-watering container watered--once peat based mixes dry out --very hard to rewet. I should not have assumed people would not do this.

Didn't you say in another post that there was no lime in your containers and that they didn't need it until I pointed out that all goods brands (and I gave links) have it in it already. Or was that somebody else?

Dolomite is important in the moderation of pH in peat based mixes -- as organic matter breaks down the mix acidifies. That is one reason that it is added to premade mixes.

I have even wondered if the extra dolomite addition is not so much for the added calcium but the effect it has on overall pH over the long growing season. Calcium uptake is influenced by pH--the more acidic the less uptake.

quote from Calcium and Tomatoes:
"Field-grown tomatoes are usually planted into soil with a pH of between 6 and 6.5, but it is possible to grow them in more acidic conditions. However, as soil pH declines, the availability of calcium drops off, especially below pH 5.5. In this situation, plants have smaller soil reserves of calcium to draw on, so uptake can be restricted.

I once pH tested the mix of an EB container at the end of the growing season (with professional callibrated equipment where I worked at the time) and it came out 3!!! Talk about acidic. (This was only one test and needs to be repeated with controls. ) And I am even watering with alkaline water.

Adding dolomite is not a new addition to EB--I have been using them for 10+ years and they always had that 2 cups per container recommendation. What is new is the adding of lime to water in the reservoir-- never heard of that until very recently.

The point where we disagree is adding the additional amount--and there really is no disagreement at all. If it works for you then I believe you. Lots of people grow in containers without adding any more lime. Also people are using differenct fertilizers with varying amounts of calcium added. I believe you add time-released fertilizer so you may not need added dolomite where someone using cheap 6-6-6 may have different results.

I am just loathe to leave it out--its cheap and I am assuming EB is backing its recommendations with research. Old habits die hard. I guess to be 'scientific' I could leave it out of one and then compare results. I would also want to test the pH of both mixes at the end.

Here is a link that might be useful: Calcium and Tomatoes

I made a custom mix of amendments that I put a generous amount of in each of the holes for my tom plants this year. So far I've lost 2 early green toms to BER on a total of 9 plants. Did the amendment make the difference? I don't know. I need to try the same next year to see if I have similar results. I haven't mentioned what I used for that very reason (some inspired by my old gardening neighbor). Only time will tell.

If it's inspired by your old garden neighbor, then I'd guess powdered milk, Tums, vitamins w/calcium/D, or eggshells. Of course, if he's really old & gross, it could be toenail clippings too!

Dr. Carolyn, sorry to ask a beginner's question: are you saying the tomato membranes won't allow water inside, because they don't burst when it rains? Or, are you saying, the tomato membranes won't allow water inside. As an illustration, if the membranes would allow water, the tomatoes would burst if it rained. I guess I'm saying, perhaps the membranes will allow certain minerals to pass through? Or, is that crazy?
I just checked my mg (for tomatoes) box and it doesn't say if it has calcium in it. It does have little white dots, that I'd be willing to be are calcium, but the pkg doesn't say and neither does the website.
In any case, I found a single roma with a spot of ber on the bottom yesterday and was so excited that I was yelling to the hubby "Look, I got the same thing as the guys on the website have! I'm rolling with the big dogs now, babe." He's like, "So, any eta on getting a tomato out of that garden?" LOL

The pot I'm using for this tomato plant is the "Square Foot Success Kit" from Gardener's Supply. It came with the "square foot" pot, special soil for it, a 5-5-5 granular fertilizer, and a tomato cage. Before I planted, at the end of May, I mixed in the fertilizer. Since then I've a couple times fertilized *lightly* with Miracle-Gro tomato food. I fertilized much less than my other tomato plants because the Sausage in that pot was doing so well I figured it didn't need much.

I haven't checked the pH yet. I have some bone meal. Would it do any good to add that?

I snipped off the tomatoes with BER, which had gotten worse in the last day. There are 20 more tomatoes developing on that plant, so I guess I shouldn't be too sad. As long as they develop healthfully.

Some interesting stats -- I took my soil thermometer out and stuck it down some of my tomato pots. The one black pot I have was 108 degrees. Most of the others, terra cotta and some plastic, were around 100 degrees, including my SW container with the Sausage. My white kitty litter pails were only 90 degrees. I have a Sunmaster and a Viva Italia in those two, and alone of all my tomatoes, they are not wilting. Of the others, the Sausage in the SW container wilts the least.

Obviously, the color of the pot makes a difference in reflecting the heat. I have 5 cats, so by next summer I should have a whole forest of empty white kitty litter buckets.

lilac, I have that same container from Gardeners Supply--I like it. Nice interior design. I also bought 2 others and something called Gardenpatch just to compare to EB. I set them all up like an Earthbox.

You know since you have the bone meal I guess it wouldn't hurt to add some and sort of scratch it in the surface. But I don't even know how much calcium it contains. Not sure if it would act quickly enough though--if things improve it may just be improvement that occurs with the simple passage of time. But containers need more fertilizer than inground plants so you also need to fertilize with a complete fert.

Good luck with your 20 others. Do be sure to keep the reservoir filled.

DigDirt said: "I have read that calcium sprays aren't effective too but Bill (hoosier) just linked a study where there was some benefit to spraying the fruit (as a matter of fact it was the fruit and not the leaves that particularly had to be sprayed) but this had to be done early on. No harm in experimenting on a few."

Note: The study indicated fruit had to be sprayed with the calcium while immature.

Carolyn responded: "The problem I have with that, and I hope Bill will respond, is that molecules don't get across the tomato epidermis. If they did then irrigation or rains would be absorbed and the fruits would burst if they were anywhere's near mature and the fruit was already at its maximum size and the epidermis could no longer expand."

Note: Irrigation or rain would burst fruit if the water could penetrate mature fruit skin.

Tomato skin is comprised of cuticle, epidermis and a few subdermal cell layers.

The cuticle is a natural composite that covers or "coats" the epidermis as a continuous extracellular membrane, consisting mainly of two components ... the insoluble biopolymer cutin and soluble lipids, collectively called waxes.

A primary purpose of the cuticle is to prevent uncontrolled water loss through the epidermis from within the fruit. In other words ... Mother Nature is preventing sun dried tomatoes while on the vine. And likewise, cuticle prevents penetration of irrigation water or rainfall into the fruit.

Now ... cuticular encasement of the epidermal cells of a tomato fruit typically is absent at the immature green stage, but becomes increasingly abundant ("waxy") during ripening, resulting in an overall thicker cuticle at mature green and mature red stages.

Don't believe it? Go out right now and feel the texture of a new little greenie. Feels kinda sticky or fuzzy or tactile, huh?

Now feel the texture of a more developed green tomato. Slicker, waxier, even shinier lookin' too, huh?

more bedtime reading

Bill

Source of above information:

More Bedtime Reading

TY Bill!

Carolyn responded: "The problem I have with that, and I hope Bill will respond, is that molecules don't get across the tomato epidermis. If they did then irrigation or rains would be absorbed and the fruits would burst if they were anywhere's near mature and the fruit was already at its maximum size and the epidermis could no longer expand."

******

Bill posted:

A primary purpose of the cuticle is to prevent uncontrolled water loss through the epidermis from within the fruit. In other words ... Mother Nature is preventing sun dried tomatoes while on the vine. And likewise, cuticle prevents penetration of irrigation water or rainfall into the fruit.

Now ... cuticular encasement of the epidermal cells of a tomato fruit typically is absent at the immature green stage, but becomes increasingly abundant ("waxy") during ripening, resulting in an overall thicker cuticle at mature green and mature red stages.

******

Isn't that essentially what I said above Bill, without saying that molecules could pass through from the outside at the immature green stage?

I didn't read the link, it's 1 AM and I'm not in the mood right now ( just up checking the weather to see if there are storms nearby b'c I get nervous following the lightning strike on my home in JUne) but if the link gives some data on how effective Ca++ spray is in preventing BER with immature greenies then I certainly will read it.

And if it's that effective, why aren't more commercial farmers doing it, not just for tomatoes but crop loss of peppers and cabbage and squash and all the other crops that can be affected by BER?

But the explanation of Ca++ penetration for greenies I don't think would hold for many of the other crops I mentioned above, but I don't know for sure without doing a lot of Googling, which I'm not going to do. ( smile)

BER crop loss for the vegetable/fruit industry is a many millions of dollars problem.

Thanks for commenting as I had asked and hoped you would.

Carolyn

I think all of you will find that the chemical you are all looking for to do the trick and stop BER almost overnight is - (Calcium Nitrate) if you can get it ?

other than that you just cant beat the Dolomite lime incorperated in the mix a bit at the beginning of the season with constant correct watering- on a hot day peat based composts can dry out within two hours or less, especially in grow bags, pots, etc and I sometimes have to nip out and water them up to three times a day during hot spells- and have so far seen no BER for several years as a result of this,

Blossom end rot is a physiological disorder that is caused by a lack of calcium uptake from the soil and transfer to the fruits during dry weather. Research in Florida indicates that excessive magnesium, potassium, sodium, or ammonium salts, or a deficiency of soluble calcium salts, cause a decrease in calcium uptake thus favoring development of BER. Rapid early growth accentuates the problem because it tends to increase the calcium requirement per unit of time. Although a sudden lack of water is the principal cause of blossom end rot, excessive soil moisture early in the season may smother the root hairs and cause blossom end rot to occur during sudden hot weather. It may be more serious on the windward than on the leeward side of a field and more common on the first fruits to turn red. So you need not loose hope lilacs of may!

Here are some Management Strategies

Since blossom end rot is so closely related to adequacy of the water supply, an important control is to regulate the moisture supply in the soil. The land should allow good drainage during a wet period. If drought occurs, cultivation should be very shallow to reduce the water loss and irrigation should be used. Hoeing or cultivating should be performed no closer than one foot from the plants to reduce root pruning. Appropriate amounts of fertilizer high in superphosphate and low in nitrogen should be used (1-3-1 ratio) to aid in root health.

In the greenhouse, transplants should not be grown too quickly nor should the plant be too old and subjected to severe hardening before transplanting. A steady growth rate as a seedling and as a field plant will discourage much of this trouble.

If the irrigation of any kind is available, it should be used during periods of hot, drying winds. Start to irrigate at the beginning of the dry spell. Mulching, which serves to maintain an even level of soil moisture, should be practiced where feasible. Mulch with black plastic or grass clippings to reduce moisture loss and to control weeds. Tomatoes and peppers planted unusually early, while the soil is still cold, are likely to have the first fruits affected by blossom end rot. Consequently, a delay in planting until the soils warm up may help to reduce the problem.

And I have to agree that if you are using a self watering container dolomite should be added the siol and the resivoir. The water sitting at the bottom of the resivoir will become stagnant and not favorable for proper ph levels. Soil PH tests are allways encouraged.

The tomato varieties Jet Star, Burpe VF, Better Boy, Early Girl, Flora-Dade, Floramerica and Walter seem to have some tolerance to BER.

Hope this helps!

Corey

I'm still a tomato newbie. This is only my second year planting tomatoes. I'll remember to add dolomite next year when I transplant.

I was racking my brain wondering why my healthiest plant with the most even watering was getting BER, and something occurred to me. I wonder if the BER is related to the fact that it grew so much faster than the other tomato plants?

I'm keeping a planting journal and writing down notes, so I know what to do, and what not to do, in the years following.

Oh, I forgot to note, in my post above talking about soil temperatures of my pots, that the ambient temperature was around 99 when I took the soil temps. That means the white kitty litter pails kept the soil temperature below the air temperature. The terra cotta and plastic pots kept the soil temperatures at about the same as the air temperature. And the black pot, not surprisingly, heated the soil up.

Too bad I don't have a scientific lab book. I could do charts and graphs of this stuff. I graduated with a degree in chemistry that I never got to use, and I really loved doing the lab work. :-)

Blossom end rot is a physiological disorder that is caused by a lack of calcium uptake from the soil

****

Corey, I'm afraid I have problems with that comment.

In the past 20 years or so there's been a lot of research done on BER b'c it's such a cost loss to the industry.

And the problem isn't lack of uptake of Ca++ by the roots, it's maldistribution within the plant.

Even in the early 90's when I was still posting only at AOL I wrote a BER post for use by others and well I remember and wrote about the studies that showed that one can take tissues from plants that have BER fruits and it was shown that the tissues had a normal amount of Ca++. I presume that was before stress but that I can't remember. But the point is that Ca++ does get in thru the roots and many studies at that time were indicating a maldistribution problem.

I'm three computers down the road from then and many of my links are no longer with me.

I can't speak to container growing but with inground growing the two exceptions are, and I may have already mentioned them above, soils that are devoid od Ca++ which is quite rare, and soils that are highly acidic b'c that condition binds Ca++ in the soil.

(The tomato varieties Jet Star, Burpe VF, Better Boy, Early Girl, Flora-Dade, Floramerica and Walter seem to have some tolerance to BER.)

Is this your experience or from a list from a particular website referring to a particular region? I ask only b'c there are many varieties that never experience BER when stressed. Do I have a list? No, I don't, but I've grown well over 2000 tomato varieties, many of them several times and with some of them I've never seen BER.

And just when I think I might have a variety that's BER tolerant the next season is different, stress pressures are different, and behold, BER. ( smile)

Carolyn

Sigh. I just checked my tomatoes, and I see another couple on the same plant with BER. They were fine yesterday.

Did the tomato plant grow too fast? Was that the problem? I just don't understand why my healthiest plant got hit like this. Did the quickly growing plant take up all the nutrients in the soil, and now there's none left?

If by healthiest, you mean grew the fastest at first. Then yes Im affraid so. Especially if the plant endured a dry spell and maybee some wind. Hopefully the later season tomatoes turn a new leaf.

As for people arguing against my advise on how BER developes and "cant seem to remember the facts" on thier previous studies years ago. I suggest brushing up on you'r studies. Im not here to argue, im here to help. All of the above information I have previously posted on this topic is backed by years and years of research.. Perhapps My message was misread, or just not fully read.

My goodness!

Corey

So my fast growing Sausage actually probably does need more nutrients than I've been giving it? Should I put the Miracle-Gro water into the reservoir? Or water the soil like a normal container?

Same question for the bone meal. Into the reservoir or on top of the soil?

We've had two weeks now with over 90 temps and no or almost no rain. That's Colorado for you. It did rain a little today, about 15 solid minutes.

Thanks.

So is Miracle Gro good stuff? I thought it seemed too harsh and there's lots of Nitrogen in it.

*runs to the store to buy tums and powdered milk*

I had one tom get BER and I am just hoping none of the others get it. I am container growing.

I'm using the Miracle-Gro specifically made for tomatoes.

I really don't have the space to put tomatoes into the ground. I have a nice, sunny little area in my side yard that the previous tenants spread lava rock on. Then when the house was vacant the weeds took over. Rehabilitating the ground seemed like way too big a task, so I figured that containers and raised beds were the best way to go.

I did try a Giant Tree tomato by the fence this year. The next morning a cut worm had killed it. Next year if I do that, I'll do something to foil the cutworms.

Corey,
It is good to have someone around here that is up to date on the scientific/horticultural literature re BER. Since you seem to have this information at your fingertips would you be so kind as to post a short list of the most relevant publications.

Thanks

Three more Sausage tomatoes have BER, and now my Roma tomatoes are getting it, too.

I do hope to get a couple edible tomatoes this year.