I'm not familiar with winter moths, but there may be a couple of things going on. First, the birds may be eating the caterpillars; there may just be so many that they're not getting them all. Or maybe the caterpillars have some clever defenses--maybe they taste awful or whatever. The reason that many imported pests become so much of a problem is that they have no predators here as they do in their native land.

No matter how bad the infestation is, I would leave it alone. Remember the horrible gypsy moth infestations of the early 80s? Ecologists learned from those events that plants develop defenses to pests IF WE LEAVE THEM ALONE. Unsprayed forests did better in the long run than sprayed areas. A plant that is attacked by a pest will usually develop chemical defenses, kind of like an immunity, and will not be successfully attacked again. Also if the pest's population is allowed to multiply out of ocntrol, it will run out of food and the population will crash, leading to far fewer pests nect year. As for the plants, in a few weeks the caterpilars will be gone and the trees will put out another set of leaves. I really think that nature has been taking care of this kind of thing for a long time and we should just stand back and let her do her job.

Thanks Elaine :-)

I hadn't thought about the fact that the caterpillars might be able to defend themselves chemically and the birds wouldn't eat them. Well, it is scary when you see such a large infestation to do nothing. I have read reports on another forum of people in CT having their large shade trees completely defoliated 4 years in a row. Not sure a tree can come back from that kind of abuse.

Nature taking care of things is something I am not sure about. Since we have interferred with the natural processes I am not so sure they can always work the way they were intended to any more.

I wasn't considering spraying them though. I haven't done that before and I am not about to start now. I don't think I was considering using dormant oil on my small trees and shrubs next year before the plants leaf out. But there are so many large shade trees involved, I don't think anything I could do would take care of it. 90% of the trees are hanging over my property but I don't own the trees.

I hope just letting it take care of itself works. I just wondered why the birds weren't eating them.

:-)
Adam

Adam,
One bird comes to mind which definitely eats caterpillars and that is the Cuckoo. They even eat the hairy ones. It is a beautiful bird but you seldom see it. Its sound is like Kuk-kuk-kuk-kuk in the day or night. I've been hearing them for the past week, I live in the country.
Be patient, caterpillars don't stay at that stage forever.
Sam

We had this problem when we first moved into our new home last spring. The caterpillars were all over everything, including us, when we came in from outside. The Baltimore Orioles showed up and ate them all, then they left. We didn't see another caterpillar after that, and unfortunately we didn't see any more Orioles either.

Most of the caterpillars that come out in large hoards make tasty tidbits for birds. And most birds will eat caterpillars and other insects. It just takes them awhile to find them. Can you describe the caterpillar? I'm curious.

If your yard is visited by any of the usual song birds, or others.....you have insect feeders. Even those that we think of as being stickly seed eaters will eat a juicy caterpillar.

Last year I got some little green caterpillars in my raspberries. Never did figgure out what they were,. I had a nesting pair of Cardinals in my yard and the male Cardinal would go to the raspberies, stock up on caterpillars, then go feed his babies. Then the process would be repeated all day long. After about four days, I didn't see any more of those green caterpillars so I was happy and the Cardinals had a feast right when they needed it.

Hi,

The caterpillars are tiny tiny ones. I could see the silken threads all over everything and still couldn't see any caterpillars. That was before the trees opened their leaves. Then finally I saw a tiny caterpillar inching along one of the threads. You just about needed a magnifying glass to see it. Now they are a little larger, maybe the thickness of a piece of thread and about 1/6 inch long and are chartreuse colored.

The leaves opened with holes in them. I was told that the winter moth does that. Burrows into the buds and eats away before the leaves open and you can't get at them before they do damage. Plus there are more holes and even on shrubs that I just brought into the yard and are still in containers. So I know the caterpillars weren't in the buds on those.

Adam

The Bewick's wrens nesting just outside my home office window have been feeding caterpillars to their young (this year and last).

I was talking about the TREES developing defenses to the caterpillars, not the caterpillars developing defenses to the birds--although that certainly happens as well. But a plant that's heavily attacked by a pest, and survives the attack, will usually not be attacked by the same pest again, because it "learns" to produce chemicals the pest doesn't like. That's what saved our forests from gypsy moths.

I find that when I have a particular plant that's heavily infested with aphids, or whatever, and leave it alone, that plant will not be attacked again, even though others of the same species are.

It's the nature of leaves to be eaten. Caterpillars eat leaves, birds eat caterpillars. No caterpillars, no birds (no butterflies or moths either, of course). No aphids, no ladybugs. Really!

I treat only imported diseases that native plants have no resistance to, like wooly adelgids on hemlocks.

Well, going along that line of thinking, what if these particular caterpillars are imported and there are no natural predators and that is why the birds aren't eating them? Then maybe the problem will not take care of itself. The leaves on the trees are looking worse and worse. It seems to be happening on trees in neighboring yards too.

Strangely, I have noticed that there seems to be something black spotting the leaves on the plants under the infested trees. Also black spots all over the car when it is parked under the trees. I wonder what that is all about?

Adam

I suspect that "imported" caterpillars don't stand a chance in the fight against native birds since they have had no time to evolve natural defenses against their avian predators' voracious dining habits.

Adam,
I haven't noticed black spotting, but our trees are being eaten as well, by tiny green inchworms. I was waiting for the birds to come and feast, and they have started doing so. We have had blue jays and sparrows eating the little guys.

Last year we were very concerned about our trees because of a similar infestation. We just waited it out, and the trees leafed out again and were fine.

Good luck! I hope the sparrows come to your tree soon. This is the first time I've ever been thrilled to see them!

Adam: Just can't resist.......adding another log to the native fire here. This is another good reason to encourage species diversity which includes encouraging natives (plant or animals).

Given that each species of bird occupies a niche in the ecosystem, the more diverse species in the area, the more likely you are to have a bird that will have an appetite for that particular caterpiller. The way it is going in larger cities and suburban areas, only three species of birds do well (pigeons, starlings and house sparrows--all of which are non-natives incidentally). It is not likely that these three species will have an appetite for all the types of caterpillars and bugs that are there. The reason for discouraging invasive alien animals (and plants) is their tendency to outcompete natives thereby limiting species diversity. So this is one more reason to encourage native species and discourage non-native species. I know people who have noticed less plant disease when bird species diversity increases. I know this isn't very pure science and could merely be coincidence, but it is encouraging at the very least.

All you are doing to educate yourself and observe your little ecosystem is encouraging to those of us that believe this is an act locally/think globally situation. The more people like us do to encourage native plant and animal species, the more it is likely that nature will find a way to solve this and other problems.

Hi,

I am not sure if I am getting the posts made to this thread in my mailbox, so I am now checking the threads.

I wanted to let you know that someone on another thread gave me a link to the U Mass Extension information that addresses winter moths. That is what I suspect I have after reading the site. The caterpillars are tiny and green. But some are maturing and look a darker color. So I started with all tiny green ones and now have a mix of green and darker ones.

It seems we are about to be in epidemic proportions in the Eastern part of MA. According to the linked fact sheet, there are some communities reporting that driving around the town feels like winter due to complete defoliation of trees. Since I had little to no damage last year and this year damage is really bad, I am trying to find out as much as I can about them.

Last year was the first time we actually saw moths in December flying around the yard. It is amazing how much damage there is from the few...maybe less than 200 moths we saw last winter. They actually lay 150 eggs each, so that is a lot.

They have eaten tree leaves on maples from top to bottom, Amelanchier trees, and dropped down and eaten shrubs and plants.

I am on the hunt for a solution to the problem that is organic, because if all of these caterpillars lay eggs next fall, I can't imagine the destruction next year.

Adam

Here is a link that might be useful: Winter Moth ID and Management

From my experience, yes - birds do eat caterpillars. Do birds eat enough catepillars - no. I just look at my bare catalpa trees each year to come to this conclusion.

the black stuff is caterpillar poop.

for the shrubs and trees give them some compost, alfalfa tea. the slow release fertilizer will help.

Put a bat house up in some of those trees. plant some spice bushes to encourage other caterpillars which will get more predators around. take away your wasp traps. don't kill off the ants.

and heh, put out some bird feeders and some bird houses. go outside and call birdy birdy-and hopefully it will make them come. get yourself a bird bath or a fountain. me since it feeds the inner child i would run around flapping my arms for fun to get them to come. put out some hummingbird feeders.

Moonwolf..you are so funny! I also love your screen name. Well, do I HAVE to have bats!!?? Yuck! Will a bat house really bring bats? I just planted a spice bush, and a ninebark which I think also attracts other butterflies. No wasp traps here. What is with the ants? How do they help?

I have feeders, a couple of houses, but planning more. Have two bird baths and a dripper above one of them. Have been running the sprinklers a lot lately for newly planted shrubs.

Have not done the bird dance though...is that like the chicken dance they do at weddings? [g]

Thanks...
Adam

the ants eat caterpillars. so do wasps. I know cause i do butterfly gardening and am often at the butterfly forum. they cause major irritation to butterfly gardeners.

bats eat insects but probably only eat flying ones so i guess you can do without, but they eat a lot of mosquitoes.

uh oh son quiet gotta run

Oh the ants eat caterpillars...wow...did not know that! Very funny coincidence was that today I noticed in an area that is a large mulched sitting area we suddenly have tons of ant hills. Hmmm...I will have to look into that more.

Thanks again

1/6 of an inch long? Sounds like a size most birds would overlook. Larger caters are easier to spot and are more worth a bird's effort to catch from a food vs energy used hunting/gathering perspective. At that small a size, some of the minute parasitic wasps might be effective. To attract them a planting of small flowered plants like allysum for the adults to get nectar from might be useful.

it really depends on the speies of bird inaround your areaa, but the biggest controls for catipillers are by far other insects. Wasps, tiger beetles, assasin bugs, spiders, ants (tough some are purely vegtable material foragers), disease, and parasitic insects rake up thhe death toll far more than birds and ae even more effectve at controling populations. Its just we dont see them doing it very often, so most dont notice they're there. Dont spray the tree or you will kill the benefical catipiller-eating insects aswell, altough they cant always keep populations in check. Cukuoos are indeed one of the best catipiller-eating birds around, and are adept at turning very hairy catipillers INSIDE out and peeling off their skin to get past the defensive stiging hairs.

Hi Adamm321 .. I live in NEPA in country land and we have 18 oak trees. For the past 4 years we have been in a real battle with caterpillars and some of our trees just didn't make it through the abuse and we had them cut down. Now this May they came back with a vengenance and the leaves are horrible looking. All we had to do was look up and see thousands of little caterpillars chopping away so yesterday we finally hired a pest control guy who shot insecticide 80 feet up into the trees and within 1/2 hour they started falling out dead or falling out near death. Alot are just dead on the leaves. They start out tiny but by July they will be big and last year every morning I would go out and kill them as they made their way up the trees for breakfast. Birds, ants, wasps, bats, etc sure didn't help us. Pest guy says the leaves will be looking as good as new in a couple of weeks. Don't know if you want to go this route but we feel its the best thing we could have done.

Hello..

Paul, thanks for that info. Maybe as the caterpillars get larger, the birds will eat more of them. I will try to get the alyssum. Can't hurt.

Fledgeling ...So could I assume that this large infestation of caterpillars will be attracting a lot of beneficial insects? Cukuoos? I thought those were extinct? I'm pretty sure there are none in NEngland at any rate.

Goldensmom...what is NEPA? Wow, 4 years of that is a long time to be battling that every day. Strange that the birds etc. didn't help.

Did someone say ants also have some effect on caterpillars? I can't imagine them eating a caterpillar. I have just noticed new ant hills everywhere in my yard. They are a nuisance since they set up house in our sitting area. Are they a help in getting rid of caterpillars or no effect?

Adam

Can't say enough about the benefits of predatory "bugs", our true bugs. Nothing makes me happier than to see a cog wheel bug or an assassain bug perched quietly among my plants, waiting patiently for an unsuspecting catepillar to come strolling past. And the next time you start to swat a fly, you might want to see what kind it is...some of our most common flies also parasitise caterpillars.

We are so caught up in our need for immediate gratification...we really want to see results NOW. It is tough to reassuringly tell yourself about balance and long-term fluctuations when you can see the damage being done to a prized planting on a daily basis. And there isn't always a handbook to tell you what the threshold is-the point at which you either take evasive action or suffer a complete loss.
I am reminded of the cicada hatching we had here several years back. All you could do was clap your hands over your ears when you went out and stare in disbelief at the branches completely covered with those shiny black insects. How could the trees possibly survive that sucking screaming carpet? But then things quiet down eventually and the scavengers clean up the last of the carcasses and you see that aside from a few dead branches and weakened individual trees, they came out of it ok.
Unless the invader is a foreign one and the ecosystem has no defenses for the newcomer, there is always a check and balance.

Cuckoos are inconspicuous and like to sulk in dense foliage and are not often observed by the casual person. Yellow-billed Cuckoo and Black-Billed Cuckoo both are found in New England

Ill say what i said my above post again: some ants are purely vegtable material foragers, or teh species you have cant take on a caterpiller for whatever reason, or have no interest to.

Natural predators cant always keep populations in check, and thats the reason for the 'eruptions' (years of abundnce of acertain sppecies) of catapillers in certain species, because theres more than the predator population can eat (kind of like tree masts)

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1346690}}

JUST ANWSER THE QUESTION - DO BIRDS EAT CATAPILLERS !!!!!
YES OR NO .......
THANKS :)

Yes!