Adam - you have actually done the birds a good turn by removing the forsythia and replacing it with something that will hopefully supply both food and cover. Forsythia is only good for cover and can be invasive. If you can, leave a brush pile in the yard for your birds. They will love it. Planting some annual vines on it can hide it a bit if necessary. We have two huge brush piles in our yard and they are always full of birds and small mammals. They are a very important component of our bird habitat and you may want to consider a permanent brush pile somewhere in your yard.

You may lose some birds in the short run, but by planting natives that are food sources, you will see an increase in species diversity as your plantings mature. Trust me - been there, done that, so thankful we did.

Thanks for that idea Jill, I certainly have enough brush that hasn't been thrown out yet, and I hadn't thought of putting annual vines around it. I would have to place it behind the shrubs going in or else it will shade them. Is there any reason I should not place it close to growing shrubs or trees?

So tell me, what did you put in when you ripped out the old shrubs? How large were the shrubs you put in? We have bought pretty small shrubs and 3 small trees. It really gets expensive to fill a 90ft border and 40ftx2 more on either side of that. We tried to keep the sizes small for costs, but I keep second guessing myself that maybe I should have gotten at least a couple of larger sizes. I also heard that they establish better if they are small when you put them in.

Adam

If you are careful about the planting site and preparing the soil, you may plant anything (provided it is suitable to your site, hardy, and preferably native) large enough that you can afford, with success.
This suggestion above about food AND cover is an essential one for wildlife gardening.
Look for elderberries, that are cheap and grow very fast (some native species prefer shady spots, others full sunny ones). And above all IMO, for native Viburnums (nannyberries, highbush crannberry "trees", etc.) that grow reasonably fast... And don't forget the dogwoods! Your Amelanchier is precious, but do look out also for the shrubby varieties (like Amelanchier alnifolia). All of the above for early summer, late summer, early fall and early winter fruits for birds and small mammals... So fun all year long!!

Juneberries (or serviceberries, shadbush) are a good food provider for quite a few bird species, smaller mammals (if the birds don't get them all), and some for the pollinating insects as well and you can get them in 6-40 feet tall species. Tree forms are the taller ones.

Here is a link that might be useful: got mine here

Most of what we put in was fairly small - fastest growers have included elderberries, the viburnum trilobum (waaaay outstripped all the other viburnum) and my itea (not really a bird plant). Everything else is growing well, but has taken a few years to get established. Elderberries are probably your best bet for an almost instant thicket and a bird favorite as well.

Hi again,

Rose, what is a Viburnum cranberry tree?

Dragonthoughts, love your screen name [g]....thanks for the link.

Jill, where did you get elderberries and which ones did you get? I would love an "instant" thicket along my fence line, but I think there is a LOT of shade there, therefore I was planning on planting the elderberry in a different location that gets more sun. There isn't room for a lot of them there in the sunnier position. Maybe 2 bushes at most. There are parts of the fence line that get sun from 7am to maybe 11am. Would that be enough for them to berry up? Because I could put a bunch of them there.

On the viburnum trilobum, I haven't seen a "straight" trilobum. Only different named varieties. Did you mean there is a viburnum that is just a trilobum, or did you mean any of those that are trilobums?

I have an itea and I love it too. It is in the front and I am thinking of moving one part of the "colony" to the back too.

Thanks everyone for the input..
Oh, I stacked some branches into a brush pile yesterday. I wondered is there any particular way to stack them? Mine looks a little dense. Not sure a bird could get into it for cover? Should I arrange the branches so it is looser?

Adam

Viburnum cranberry is American highbush cranberry which is Viburnum trilobum. Viburnum trilobum is a specific species, and I do not have a named cultivar. There are many, many viburnum species as well as named cultivars, and you have to be careful what you buy if you want native plants. Other good species for birds include V. nudum and V. dentatum. Again, these come in both the species type as well as named cultivars (like V. dentatum "Blue Muffin" for example).

I got my elderberries from my local native plants nursery, but they are available from many mail order sources and Garden in the Woods may have them as well. I planted Sambucus canadensis, the native elderberry. They are doing just fine in part shade, but might not produce much fruit in dense shade. A berry producing bird and butterfly favorite that can handle dense shade is Lindera benzoin (spicebush), but it may get too big for you and it is a little leggy. Still, check it out.

As to the brush pile, I have seen recommendations to start with a pile of logs if possible, and then to loosely layer larger branches over that. I just make sure to rotate the direction in which my branches are laying and I do try to make sure that they are loosely piled. You're right that if the pile is too dense the birds won't be able to penetrate to the interior.

Serviceberries and elderberries do well in sun or shade or anything in between. Tha's why they were formerly so widespread, and we should all be doing what we can to restore them to our woods and roadsides. Also, you will never ever see ripe fruit on either of them, because the birds get it all. In addition, try some shrub dogwoods and some other viburnums besides trilobum (whose fruit birds do not eat until the next spring if at all)--grey dogwood (C. racemosa)is adaptable to many different sites and grows quickly, nannyberry (V. lentago) and blackhaw viburnum (V. prunifolium) also do well in a variety of sites, although V. prunifolium likes the most sun of any of these. C. amomum (silky dogwood) likes shade, and C. stolonifera (red osier dogwood) likes sun, but these are harder to find commercially. Chokecherry (Prunus virginiana) is a fast grower, but it suckers a little too enthusiasticlly to work well in a hedgerow. I usually buy my shrubs from Cold Stream Farm in Wisconsin--coldstreamfarm.net. I'm not interested in a hybrid dogwood tree for $100, which is what the local nurseries have.

My experience is that most shrubs really take two or three seasons to get established. I buy small bareroot plants and don't amend the soil--the only way I could possibly afford all the plants I buy. The first year, they leaf out but there's very little top growth. The second year there's a lot of growth but no fruit or flowers. The third year most species (except viburnums) will flower and fruit for the first time, although sparsely. However, after that, they're gorgeous forever. At this moment, I have an 8-year-old V. prunifolium in full bloom, and it's breathtaking.

And remember that the best thing you can do to attract birds and butterflies is to not use pesticides. Most birds eat insects along with fruit, for at least part of the year, so abundant insects will attract them.

>>you will never ever see ripe fruit on either of them, because the birds get it all.Elaine, I disagree about that: our Sambucus canadensis (American Elder, which fruits in sunny spots) produces tons of fruits that ripen all along though September and October for birds of all kinds, while leaving PLENTY for us to pick and do jelly or wine out of (which we are too lazy to do, but anyway...)... or to just enjoy the pretty sight of!
Adam M321, Sambucus pubens (Red elderberry) also grows fast and hardy and even fruits in the shade. Does not sucker though, like canadensis does. So you will need a few specimens to start and fill in any such spots.
And I believe some cultivars of Virburnum trilobum are smaller and slower. Look for the "real" species, like jillmcm has it. And as for just any plants of the Viburnum genus, two or more plants of different seed production sources will better cross-polinate and produce (a lot) more fruits (I believe like appletrees).

Hi Jill,

Thanks for the clarification on the Viburnum bushes. It will help when I am looking for more shrubs. I will probably be making another trip to Garden in the Woods soon.

I didn't see any Sambucus at G in Woods, but they do have an online list of what is available and I will have to check that out. I definitely have part shade to put the elderberries in. Only the corners of the border are in dense shade. I have a Lindera that I am putting in the dense shade corner. It is VERY small though. I wish I had found a larger one. I plan on putting something in front of it, so if it is leggy that may be fine.

Yes, I am going to have to redo the brush pile. We are having lots of rainy weather here though. Waiting for it to dry out. Thanks for that clarification too.

I have definitely noticed a reduction in the birds in the yards since cutting down the last of the bushes. The colony of forsythias was the last to go and that was their favorite. Oh well...they will be back I am sure.

Thanks,
:-)
Adam

Hi Elaine,

That is great to know about the serviceberries and elderberries. I enjoy these shrubs and trees enough to have a bunch of them, so it is good to know I can place them in lots of areas. So far I have one Sambucus, a Cornus racemosa, which I am getting nervous about after reading another post about it suckering a lot. I have a Viburnum nudum 'Winterthur'. I would love to get a Viburnum prunifolium, but not sure I have the space for it, haven't been seeing the Viburnum lentago. I have seen a photo of the Cornus amomum and like the looks of that one, but again, haven't seen it locally yet. I think that would work in my yard.

Thanks for the reference to Cold Stream Farm. Gee, that is too bad you have to order all the way to Wisconsin to get native shrubs in New Jersey..lol.

Your description of what to expect once the shrubs are planted, was also helpful. For the viburnums, did you mean they take longer to flower and fruit than three years?

As for pesticides, I have been an organic grower since 1980 when I first began gardening. I have never used a pesticide in my yard. As for birds that eat insects, we have been inundated with caterpillars this year. They are EVERYWHERE and on everything. Swinging on threads. They are tiny, and have already caused damage to the leaves of the large maples. I have not seen the birds eating these caterpillars and am wondering why with such an abundance of them, they are not attracting more birds. This is the first year I have seen these caterpillars. I think they are winter moths, as we saw the moths around our maples last year around Christmas time.

Thanks Elaine :-)

Hi Rose,

It would be nice to have enough berries to have the "option" of making jelly, although I have a feeling we would also have a hard time fitting that in...lol. How many Sambucus do you have? Thanks also for the Viburnum tip.

:-)
Adam

Hi,
Are there any more ideas for what I can offer the birds while my yard is growing back in. The brush pile idea was a great one. Plantings that grow in quickly is a good idea. Any other thoughts on what I can do in the meantime?

Adam

Well any bush or small tree that is spiny (if this is not an issue with young children around) is sure to attract desirable nesting birds such as the Song sparrow. Check if the one or two Berberis species (commonly nammed barberries) that are native to the USA are now clear with your local laws. (They used to be banned because they transmitted wheat rust disease to crops.) An Hawthorne also makes an excellent nesting bush for small birds, but they are slow-growers.
Song sparrows and Red cardinals also love any dense thicket of Red cedar (which the waxwings and robins will also devour the fruits from) or arborvitae (White cedar) to nest inside and get cover for sleeping during those nasty winter weather spells...
We have two large Sambucus canadensis, fruiting heavily in the sun, two other ones that strive under dense shade(Sort of as an experiment... last year they had sprung from the ground just like a perennial, seemingly dying to the ground in the fall... But this spring the buds are forming higher on the old fall branches, so maybe these two will recover and become full-fledged shady spot shrubs... we'll see).
Then we have a specimen of Sambucus pubens, and this other native species indeed grows fast (gotta be careful about root competition at first though) in the shade, flowers in its first couple of years, then fruits almost as soon as it flowers! Fruits are shining bright red in the shade and are a very pretty sight in early summer, but these do disappear fast with the birds!!
I am surprised that you seem to have problems finding those plant species at the nurseries. Here in the Montreal area and suburbs, at some points in the season they come almost a dime a dozen! I suggest you shop around a little more. And don't forget that if you buy small potted plants from Internet dealers (search here in the archives to find those reliable dealers), in the case of Sambucus, they grow so fast and easy that this should not be an issue for you.

Adam - offer a water source. That will bring birds flocking. And you can plant annual vines to make temporary thickets, things like red runner beans or cardinal flower (both of which will also attract hummers).

I wouldn't be too worried about shrubs that sucker - they're usually easy to keep under control, and a naturalized thicket is attractive to birds.

Garden in the Woods had elderberries when I was there last week (and they also had that lovely vine Adlumia fungosa that Apcohrs recommended - I bought two).

Thanks very much for those added ideas. Okay, I won't worry about the suckering shrubs.. [g]. I have always stayed away from them, but I am willing to give it a try. After all, I had that forsythia and didn't even realize it suckered. Wow did it ever.

Yes, I am working on water. I really don't have the resources or energy to do a major water feature. I am just trying to put bird baths all around the yard. I am putting all my budget into shrubs right now and don't want to invest in nice bird baths right now. I stumbled upon the idea of small plastic outdoor tables that we had lying around, with a plastic cafeteria tray on top filled with water. Believe it or not, they use these. Makes me laugh.
I am hoping I can rig up some sort of drip so I don't have to keep filling them and to draw them in. I read your post about milk jugs Jill. Hoping to come up with a better container too.

Jill, aren't you in Pennsylvania? How often do you come to Garden in the Woods? I guess I have to get back up there. :-)

Yes, I am hoping to pick up a few packets of annual vines.

Well, I guess I have enough ideas to work on for the time being, but feel free to keep adding more ideas to this thread, for when I am done with these ideas.

:-)
Adam

Hi again Rose,

Great ideas about the spiny shrubs. Berberis is a big NO NO here I am pretty sure. I am not familiar with the native berberis but will look for it at Garden in the Woods.

Red cedars are sun lovers and so are the hawthornes, correct? I am very short on space for sun lovers. Actually I don't have full sun anywhere in my back yard, just part sun. One small area gets 6 hours and I have to save that for veggies. Does anyone know of any spiny shrubs that will grow in 3 hours of sun?

I think native plants are starting to be more available here, but just not really easy to find yet. When you do find it, it is slim pickings. Of course, as many people have pointed out, I do have Garden in the Woods, which is all natives I believe. I am starting to see that I have not appreciated that as a resource enough and will try to get over there more often. It is about 40 minutes away from me.

Thanks,
Adam

Right, Red cedars and hawthornes are sun lovers!
But White cedars (AKA arborvitae) are much less fussy about it. If your soil is alcaline (pH over 7) and rich enough, they will do wonders for your garden and birds! With a little less sun exposition, yes they will grow a little slower. Many nursery varieties of this native evergreen are pyramidal-shaped, thus requiring little space in one's garden. You have to watch for them somehow during ice storm, preparing soft strings to attach the spires so these don't turn down under the weight of the ice or heavy, wet snow. But otherwise... NO pruning with the pyramidalis varieties!
And at Garden in the Woods, don't forget to ask for the beautiful and easy Viburnum lentago!!

Thanks rose..I have an acid clay soil with part sun to deep shade. I have so much shade and my yard is so small, I have decided not to put in any evergreens to further shade things. I would love to have red cedars and white cedars but I don't think they are in the cards for us. Maybe if we have a larger property at some point. I did buy a small juniper which is called 'Grey Owl' I think? It will only get about 8-10ft. I had to tie that one up last winter. that one is in the front yard.

Thanks for the tip on V.Lentago. I will look for it.

:-)
Adam

I want the Viburnum lentago shrubs to take up a lot of space. Ideally, I'd like them to grow 12' wide by 10 to 12' tall after decades of maturity, but I'm afraid that they will grow 12' wide by 20' tall.

I would plant them 12' apart - two of them in partial sun against a fence. I hope it's that V. lentago will grow taller only when given full room... maybe I better place them closer together - like 6' apart. I do not want to have to prune them; I'm into natural landscapes and want to work-out an arrangement conducive to the trees natural expression of growth habit. I want them as understory shrubs, so if they get taller then 12', I wont be able to pick fruit from the native fruit tree that they will be under.

Thanks,
Steve

btw, I believe that Amelanhcier arborea and canadensis are separate spp. How wide and tall do you think A. canadensis gets? I believe 22' is a good estimate. I've seen serviceberries in NJ get 30 to 35 wide and tall.