I think you have what is called a coincidence. There is no way IMO that the plant would have used up any nutrients in the milk overnight. You may have some nice cheese in about a week though.

Yeah, I should have took before and after pictures- but I didn't think of it.

Well, here's what's in milk (scroll down):
http://www.dairycouncilofca.org/Milk-Dairy/Nutrients-in-Milk.aspx

There's a little iron and quite a bit of potassium and phosphorus. It doesn't mention nitrogen; I've no idea to what extent milk would be a source of nitrogen (one of the things I think of when dark green leaves are mentioned).

I don't know enough to comment further.

Maybe the magnesium since epsom salts often produces similar results and they are well-documented unlike the milk. Unless you also left some control plants, some untreated in the same conditions, to compare with the treated ones there is no way credit it to anything other than coincidence since there are so many other variables that could just as easily have led to the change.

Dave

Protein is 16% N. There's a bunch of protein(36%) in powdered milk, so about 5.7%N. It's a high N relative to P and K. I don't know what caused the improved appearance of the roses.

Oops! Meant tomatoes. Just came form the roses forum.

If you used Miracle Grow in light dilution that is why it did not work.

Maybe the left over MG in the soil reacted with the milk powder and gave you a power shake.

Maybe the Miracle Grow did help, but it took time, because you used too little, which is better then using to much.
I have all I need in my coffee waste compost, but here is a recipe for tomato plants.
1 part bone meal
1 part corn meal
1/2 part powdered milk
1/4 part Epson salt
This is placed in the hole 1-2 inches below the plant, so it will not touch the plant.
I have these in my coffee waste compost.
3.46% N
C:N of 14.50
phosphorus 0.135%
potassium 2.199%
calcium 0.30%
magnesium 0.41%
sulfur 0.28%
zinc 20 ppm
copper 56 ppm
manganese 63 ppm
Iron 1315 ppm
Organic Matter 90.02 %
I do have a pound of bone meal, but have never open it.

Either way, I am glad to hear your plants perked up so nicely. A bit of a mystery but a good one.

Your soil may be too acid for tomatoes and the CALCIUM helped neutralize it. A temporary fix, true, but I used powered milk & epsom salt to halt blossom end rot on my tomatoes after I discovered my soil was too acid.

but I used powered milk & epsom salt to halt blossom end rot

Sorry but there is no correlation between the two, Coincidence in timing only.

Dave

Whenever I see something that got watered in and then overnight success, I always wonder if they really needed more water. :)

Dave, sorry to disagree, but there is a correlation here. Blossom end rot is caused by inadequate uptake of calcium. In my case, my soil was to blame because it was way too acid, which interferes with calcium absorption. A dose of powered milk (& epsom salts for good measure) has raised the pH to a more tomato-friendly 6.0pH. I removed all end-rot tomatoes and the new ones are just beautiful. I intend to continue my powdered milk/epsom salt cocktail until I can amend the soil in a more permanent way with lime/egg shells.

Sue_zt - that made me laugh! Similar to the harder I work, the luckier I get!

Brewermom feel free to continue as you wish but there is plenty of testing that shows that tomatoes with BER actually do have ample calcium in their tissues and that uptake of that calcium is not the issue.. Nor is insufficient calcium in the soil - the old stand-by claim. Several studies are linked in the many previous discussions here about this issue.

It is the maldistribution of that available calcium due to inconsistent soil moisture levels that causes BER. It is a watering issue primarily that is exacerbated by the young plant's rapidly developing root system and the cooler weather and slow growth of early spring. As the plant's root matures and the soil warms, with no intervention at all, the BER disappears all on its own. The coincidentally applied milk or TUMS or egg shells, or aspirin or whatever that some swear by is just that, coincidence.

There are many different forms of calcium and they each have varying levels of bioavailability. Plants use calcium carbonate. Egg shells contain it but they require time and acidic intervention to make it available to the plants. Milk is calcium phosphate. TUMS are calcium lactate

But such interventions do make the gardener feel better.

Dave

Got to go with Dave here. In fact, he is pretty much always right. He is truly a fountain of knowledge. I have watched his posts for quite a while and he has never steered anyone wrong. Thanks to you Dave.

Correlation is not causation.

As scientific teachers like to repeat again and again to their students.

I also say that the reason for your plants growth is/was just a coincidence in timing. Probably it took a while for the roots to get established and uptake the MG and what was already in the soil. It is possible for protein to produce Nitrogen. They have bone meal, Blood Meal which are animal base.

About BER: I have to agree. It is not Ca deficiency alone to cause it. We know for sure that some varieties of tomato are prone to BER. So here your growing two or more varieties in the same soil, side by side. One gets BER the other does not.

I think the powdered milk acted as a fertilizer and that it did work. Overnight may be hard to believe but fertilizer can work quickly. I don't think the Miracle Grow magically kicked in after you added the milk. Miracle Grow also works quickly if you use it properly. Maybe you shouldn't be so afraid of fertilizer.

Seysonn, agree about the BER. My Gypsy tomatoes had it, but the neighboring red cherry, heirlooms, and pear tomatoes are fine.

Dave, I have over 30 years of organic gardening under my belt and I was hoping for a spirited exchange of gardening ideas here. You probably are quite knowledgeable and could teach me a thing or two, but your condescending, smug replies have left me hesitant to post. Thank you for your permission "feel free to continue as you wish" (even though it is pointless) because "such interventions make the gardener feel better". I obviously have different gardening experiences than you, but that doesn't make them any less valid, or my garden any less bountiful and beautiful.

but your condescending, smug replies have left me hesitant to post.

I'm sorry you interpret it that way. Aside from the fact that this is an issue researched and discussed ad infinitum so is beating a dead horse, the facts still exist about the actual causes of BER and what forms of calcium supplements work or don't work and why and we can all learn from them.

It has nothing to do with organic gardening. I too am one and have been for even more decades. But being an organic gardener does not in any way correlate with the use of milk as a preventative for BER. You make it sound as if being organic means milk is the only option and that simply isn't true.

When one's soil is proven to be low in calcium there are far more effective organic Ca supplements available than milk - lime, bone meal, gypsum, fish bone meal, oyster shell lime, etc. But claiming milk (or Tums or egg shells or any of the many other claims made) is a cure or a preventative for BER only misleads the uninformed who read it.

Dave

I been gardening for about 45 years and I'm still learning new tricks, I always say if it works for you then do it, No 2 gardeners do it the same way, 3 Years ago my neighbor who is Amish told me about liquid calcium that he uses on tomatoes for BER, So I tried it and believe it or not but I haven't had any since.

jimmy56,

what is liquid calcium ? where do you get it from?

Fresh milk is slightly acidic.
its possible the soil was too alkaline and the milk corrected it.
for anything else, the proteins would have to get broken down by the soil micro organisms, and that takes time...
same with the Ca and Mg
so, IMHO, its either coincidence, and maybe the roots have grown out a bit, and are now able to access pasrts of the soil that had nutrients -miracle-gro , or, maybe it was change in PH and was just enough to allow uptake on NUTES.

did you get milk on the leaves ?
also could have worked as a foliar.
also could have killed a pathogen the plant was fighting...
lots of variables...

seysonn, I got mine at a local feed store in PA, After doing a google search you can find it easy, It isn't real cheap but it goes a long ways, All you do is mix it with water and spray on plants so it feeds much faster.

Thanks Jimmy.

I know how to brew "Calcium acetate (?)". I have leaned it in Hot Peppers Forum. It is very simple:

--- add vinegar to dolomitic lime. There is a formula/proportions. But if you have more lime than needed, it will be just fine. Excess lime will be settled at the bottom. But you don't want unused vinegar in there.

I do think that even if a lab analysis shows plenty of Calcium in the soil, it does not necessarily mean that it is in a form available to the plant. For calcium to become available has to be in ionic form (Ca++). So this tells me that liquid calcium supplement is the best,

i might not be an expert gardener, but i have studied nutrition , vitamins, herbs for many years and most people are not deficient in calcium, but they are deficient in Vitamin D, and also Magnesium.
Ca needs Vit-D and Mg to work properly.
So, people thinking they are low in Ca, take calcium pills and often do themselves much more harm than good, because too much calcium in the blood causes kidney stones, arthritis, atherosclerosis and a host of problems...
And, all they needed was some sunshine (vitamin D)
and/or magnesium

Same with plants from what i can tell.
calcium and magnesium have a balance point
and even though (from what i read) calcium is very rarely deficient in soils,
at least in average and alkaline soils
Magnesium can be what i would call...
"lower than optimal for some plants"
obviously, depending on the soil
and a soil test is the best answer.
-

and is the reason EPSOM salts often works
Epsom is Magnesium sulfate
i use it as a foliar, but also add a very small amount
to the water once a month or so.
with great success (for my soil anyway)

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.soils.wisc.edu/extension/pubs/A2523.pdf

Congrats Jon to learning a secret to your garden:)

Dave, how can you claim you are an organic gardner, when you use Daconil? Is its use registered as organic?
Also, for 100 years, gardeners and scientists told us that BER was a calcium deficiency or at least an imbalance of Ca and Mg. And now we are to believe that Ca has nothing to do with BER, but rather it is only due to uneven watering. I will wait for another 100 years and see what the "experts" claim then.
When I use liquid calcium I don't get BER and when I do not, I do.

On a Similar Note:

Any organic animal part/origin ( fish head, fresh blood, milk ..) has to be composted to become available to plants. I don't know how long it will take, but it won't happen overnight.
Correct me if I am wrong !

Agree with Dave, I try to be all organic also but there is times when I just have to use something synthetic or lose some crops, Especially with vine crops.

ON SALE...

Cal_Mag Zinc

http://www.supplementwarehouse.com/viewitem.asp?idproduct=195995

$0.99 16oz
excellent for foliar, and add to water.
also made for internal use ( i have some)
past the due date, but perfectly fine to take
as far as i can tell.
(seems good to me, no bad effects)

theres lots of cheap stuff on there.
i buy 3-4 times a year from them - go to "sales and closeouts"
several cheap supplements.
watch shipping, but you can get a price in advance.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cal_Mag Zinc supplementwarehouse

Someday researchers will say, "Wait ! We were wrong ! New developments show..." and everyone stocks up on TUMS.. All I know is that once I poked a few TUMS into my pots I never get BER.

A very good start has been made on this kind of research. Take these snippets from an article in Mother Earth News:

"...a Nebraska farmer completed a 10 year study on applying milk at different rates to his pastures... grass production was drastically increased; the soil porosity or ability to absorb air and water doubled; microbe activity and populations increased; the brix or sugar level in the pasture tripled... Grasshoppers abandoned the treated pastures...

...a Brazilian research scientist, found that milk was effective in the treatment of powdery mildew on zucchini. ....subsequently replicated by New Zealand melon growers who tested it against the leading commercially available chemical fungicide and found that milk out-performed everything else. ... they also found that the milk worked as a foliar fertilizer, producing larger and tastier melons."

So there's every reason to predict that nutrient-depleted/sickly plants that grow as quickly as Tomatoes might show a visible response within a few days.

(And Dave, yes you were really smug and condescending in this thread! I hope you've stopped doing that ::. It was quite weird to read.)

Posted by Deeby 9b (My Page) on
Sat, Jun 21, 14 at 16:47

Someday researchers will say, "Wait ! We were wrong ! New developments show..." and everyone stocks up on TUMS..
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
There is no secret about TUMS.

TUMS:( I read on the label)
Active Ingredients : Calcium Carbonate, 1000 mg.
..............
Witch's Brew: Calcium Acetate ( dolomitic lime + vinegar >>> CO2 + Calcium Acetate + water)

Note: Vinegar = 95% H2O + 5% Acetic Acid.

My Conclusion:
Calcium ( in ionic form of Ca++)can be taken up by plants, regardless of the source. Foliar spraying/feeding can bypass the root system for a nearly instant satisfaction.

I grew about a dozen varieties this past season. Not a single tomato was lost to BER. But I did use fertz with Calcium and also used Calcium Acetate (my own brew) later in the season on tomatoes and peppers. I will do the same next season.

TO EACH HIS OWN.

I am all Organic. and if I need something to save the crop, I lose the crop and choose to be all Organic and just do not grow that crop in the future. I see nothing wrong with losing a crop to not poisoning myself the land and all things around me and the water below ground. this world has no opportunity to survive the excuses of the EGO. The intellectual mind of the EGO will destroy and kill everything. The EGO can never choose love over conflict and destruction. Wake up. observe your own mind at work. the human mind is the PROBLEM not the solution.

My father 65 years ago used to add milk to the tomatoes. If we kids had any left over milk we would add water to the glass and pour it onto the tomato garden. he said it was good for the tomatoes. that it was fertilizer for them. as a little kid I believed him. what did I know.

I do know his father grew tomatoes before 1900.

I grew up on a farm. Milk was the only fertilizer and natural antibacterial working against aphids, rot, just every nasty tomato problem. It also works on peppers and squash.. Of course our milk cows provided it. After we were done enjoying fresh ? Milk on the tomatos. Strong stem, no bugs, incredible huge beefsteak tomatoes. I wouldnt use anything else..

These days, regular NPK fertilizer is a lot cheaper than milk. But I guess if you live somewhere where you can't get regular NPK fertilizer, you're good to go.

Whatever floats your boat. ;-) Of course there were umpteen other factors involved - variables that far more likely than milk resulted in your "Strong stem, no bugs, incredible huge beefsteak tomatoes".

Personally I'll stick with nutrient sources I know the plants can actually use and organic pest controls that actually work. Raw milk such as you grew up using has little left in common with pasteurized milk.

Dave

Pasteurization isn't going to change the nutrient value of milk. It doesn't change NPK. And if you're after bacteria, the kind that colonize raw milk are going to be pretty useless for breaking down soil organics. But I agree that it's unlikely that milk as fertilizer was really responsible for plant health and productivity. I'd have to guess that milk would attract bugs rather than repel them. If I put milk outside for an animal, bugs are all over it.

Powered Milk is NOT organic, nor are most of the products made in the USA.

I do not cringe at GMO, not enough data to proof or disproof claims.

But for those who do, did the Cows eat GMOs in their feed, if so is your Powered Milk organic?

Many of you go over board not planting a crop because it does not do well.

You have more knowledge then anyone in history & you just give up!

Dave I am 100% old school organic, but I agree with most of what you said.

Never had a crop fail completely, or partially two years in a row.

I am not a master, I say it is the compost, mostly coffee waste.

Not sure how this discussion turned into stuff about organic gardening. The OP certainly didn't bring it up. The OP didn't seem to care if powdered milk was organic. The person who resurrected this many year-old thread didn't seem to care about it. Organic devotees need to chill.

Might be my fault Dan. I was temped to say something about digging up old threads just to be controversial but bit my tongue. ;)

But I only threw in the "organic" on pest controls to distinguish them from synthetic pesticides because the milk advocates always come back with "it's better to use milk then to use chems".

Also wanted to point out that it was raw milk - not available to most - Dixie was advocating. The bacterial count and types in raw is substantially different from that in pasteurized so pasteurized milk has even less potential value to plants than raw.

Dave

No problem, Dave. People started organifying the discussion here years ago. You have a fair point about pasteurization, though. Lactobacillus is a primary bacteria in raw milk (one of the "good" bacteria in it), and it is understood to be a good soil probiotic. I'm just not sure that application of raw milk is a particularly effective way of populating the soil with it. You find plenty of it in the guts of animals, so composted manure is an excellent source of it.

I wonder if Dixie's milk that was used on the family farm was used before the cream in it was separated out. In which case it might very well have a slightly higher nutrient content in it than a pasteurized "whole milk" bought from a store nowadays. Although I doubt it would make that much difference either way but it's something to think about.

Rodney

You're not supposed to throw fats in a compost pile or on plants, and cream is a lot of fat. Rancidity, and barriers to water infiltration are good reasons why you don't want fats near your plants. A decade or so ago a method was devised to break down vegetable oil into plant nutrients by treating it with a hydroxide that acts like soap. In fact, fats and oils don't even decompose readily in soil. They just sit around, gumming things up.