Nitrogen deficiency

Growth dwarfed, thin and upright habit; stem and petioles rigid; leaves pale green, occasional purplish tints, older leaves yellowing.

Boron deficiency

Stems stiff; terminal buds die and growths die back; lateral shoots developed, giving plant flat top; leaves highly tinted purple, brown and yellow.

Hard to tell if growth is dwarfed since I just put them in the ground, some were quite tall (GJ's, BW, cherry) though the Romans never really took off in the greenhouse like the others. But I agree they need N since soil is Low and potting soil they were in didn't have fertilizer (just compost) added. Oh, and I did throw down about 3 handfuls of compost on each plant (12-14 gal on 64 plants) the other day - it was all I had from our bin.

Also too soon to tell about boron (soil not tested for that). So far no terminal buds dying but I just got the last (biggest) plants in the ground this past weekend.

Suggestions for organic fertilizer? I think a lot of problems (Romans have been in over a week, were slightly purple to begin with) might be due to soil pH and the rainy weather, even though I know they need N I'm not sure if they need P and K?

Nutrients, even though present in the nutrient solution in satisfactory amounts and proportions, may not be absorbed by the plant unless the "reaction" of the solution as regards acidity and alkalinity is satisfactory. The reaction is measured in terms of the pH scale, which is merely a convenient notation for stating the conditions of acidity in the solution (strength or intensity of acidity, not total amount). The neutral point (i.e., when acidity and alkalinity are equal and neutralize the effect of each other) is represented by pH 7.0; below this value the solution is acid and above it is alkaline. Many crop plants prefer a reaction slightly on the acid side-pH 6.0 to 6.5 and extreme values are in the neighborhood of 4.0 on the acid side and 9.0 on the alkaline side.

When plants are grown in unsuitable environments, including conditions of faulty mineral nutrition, they react to the particular defects in more or less specific ways. Thus, if light is insufficient, the green coloring matter of the leaf will be lacking and the leaves may be almost white (chlorotic), and the plant may be very spindly and "drawn" in appearance; if the temperature is too high, the growth may be rank and soft; if water is insufficient, growth may be restricted, the tissues woody and the green of the leaves show a bluish tint. Again, deficiencies and excesses of the individual elements produce characteristic effects on various organs of plants: foliage characters, including color, density, size and shape of leaves; stem characters, such as thickness, color and length of inter-nodes; root characters, such as color, amount of fiber, abnormal thickening; blossom characters, including amount and time of opening of the flowers; fruit characters, such as size, color, hardness and flavor.

Two types of injury may occur: ( 1 ) An excess of one element may lead to a deficiency of another which ultimately results in a deranged metabolism, e.g., excess nitrogen or excess phosphorus may result in insufficient potassium and excess potassium may lead to deficiency of magnesium or calcium. This type of injury applies particularly to essential nutrients. ( 2 ) The presence of an element may directly injure the protoplasm and bring about the speedy death of the plant.

Oh, I should tell you that while the weekend was dry (I was counting on some rain Sat night, didn't happen so that's why I watered everything, all 64 plants, with about 40 gal of grass "tea" on Monday), we did have about 1" of rain last Friday, an inch yesterday, and over an inch just this morning with more this afternoon. We're under a Flash Flood Watch.

I planted the Romans first - middle of last week, again there had been rain earlier in the week (and month, in fact the past 4 months have been above average) so I had to wait for the ground to dry out a bit. I usually would have had everything transplanted by Memorial Day.

So maybe some bloodmeal (or something else fact-acting) when it dries out a bit on Sat, and something more time-release (not water-soluble?) to get through next week's rain?

We usually have about 5" of rain per month, we've had over 5.5" so far in June and it's still coming down...

As Terry said the issues are nutrient deficiency caused by your pH.

I think I recall the pH issue was discussed in detail in a previous thread of yours and it was suggested then that you will have chronic nutrient problems throughout this season because of that soil pH. Overly alkaline soil is much easier to work with than soil that acidic.

All you can do is supply extra amounts of all the nutrients throughout the season and HOPE to get some limited crop out of that soil this season. By next season the lime will have had time enough to moderate the soil ph somewhat and improve your odds.

All of the extra water complicates the problem a bit more by diluting the nutrients and stressing the fibrous roots which do all the nutrient work. Your plants will do better if grown more on the dry side than normally. And when you do water then you can dilute some lime in the water itself along with the fertilizer. It 'might' improve the nutrient uptake at least temporarily.

Dave

Yes, I know the pH is a problem, thanks for the suggestion about adding lime (I will assume the quick-acting water-soluble kind) to water when (and IF!) I water again.

But I'm still wondering if I just need some fast-acting N (maybe slow-release too), or if I need P and K too, since they are present in the soil I don't want to overdo it, but I am assuming the pH is making it inaccessible. If I use a 10-10-10 type fertilizer, will I be adding too much P and K given levels were "Medium" in soil test? Also have to watch the Mg since it was "High"

Thanks

You can't have it both ways. Your soil is a lost cause for this year because of its pH and the time needed to fix it. So concentrate on the plants.

Sure it is in the soil but the plants can't use it because of the pH. To get at least some to the plants you are going to have to add extra around the plants. And that extra needs to be in a liquid form so it is easy to uptake.

Dave

So I need a balanced 10-10-10 fertilizer in *liquid* form? And adding P and K in the form of fertilizer isn't going to make the soil exceedingly high in it? What about Mg? I realize tomatoes need it, and probably can't get it from this soil b/c of the pH, but I really don't want to have a problem with toxicity (now or in the future).

Soil lab recommendations were 202 lbs of (dolomitic?) lime per 1000sf, and fertilize with 25 lbs of 10-10-10 "preplanting" and another 10 lbs in July. Of course planting and July ended up being really close together. Even if I had spread fertilizer a month or 2 ago it would have all washed out.

So can you recommend a good (preferably organic) liquid fertilizer? Or something to mix with water (OK to add lime to the same water, since it looks like I will be watering only once a month at this rate)? Or something to put on the soil and let the rain water it in if this weather keeps up?

Thanks

Checked the garage - here's what I have

1. New package of bloodmeal (but I wonder about using that with all the predators around)

2. Partial bag (couple years old) of bonemeal - same concern

3. 1 yr old bag of Colorburst "packets" I used last year to fertilize my hanging baskets. 1 packet recommended per gallon, I was thinking maybe 4-5 gallons instead. It's 24-8-16 - OK to use such high N fertilizer now on tomatoes? All were transplanted in the past week and a half, never fertilized (except for what was in the potting mix used back in April when put in 4" pots, and the grass clipping tea used Monday). Some are setting fruit (a couple even have good-sized fruit, those were started in Feb, rest in Mar), others are getting blossoms and still others are not doing much of anything.

We've gotten 3" of rain in the past week (half of that in past 2 days) and more expected this afternoon, a little tomorrow, and then another storm (0.5 -1" if same as past storms) on Tuesday. So I don't know if I can really use the watersoluble stuff this week.

What would be best considering I can't water too much right now b/c of the rain, and the bear/coyote/etc. problem? Is there another kind of fertilizer I should use and just let the rain water it in? Or wait til we have a dry week (if ever)?

Bloodmeal and bonemeal are both very slow acting and would provide no benefit this year. They are pure N and P but they both require an active soil food web to work. I'm not familiar with the other product at all so can't comment on it.

But I had a thought last night that you might want to do some research into foliar feeding as a way to get around the soil pH problem, at least somewhat. It is worth some consideration as an alternative and there are many organic (if that is what you want) liquids available that work as both a root drench and when diluted, as a foliar spray.

Dave

Hmm, I thought bloodmeal was water soluble so quick-acting? Not keen on using it anyway. I'm sure you're right about bonemeal - I bought that for when I was planting roses a few years ago.

I do have somewhat of a foodweb going since there is OM in the trenches and I added worms along with the compost the other day, but I think I do need something fact-acting for now.

What do you think of the numbers for the Colorburst? Too high in N?

I will search on foliar feeding (thought you weren't big on that?) to see if I can find some name brands.

I just checked again today and the 1 plant with fruit (2, 1 close to breaking) is looking very yellow except for the very top. Best to pick the fruit and let the plant recover (if it can)? Another one is growing roots along the exposed stem (prob. b/c the humidity has been so high the past 3 days), even though I buried it sideways for quite a length - should I pull off the blossoms (prob. won't pollinate in this weather anyway) and bury it to within 6" of the top?

I'm hoping I can salvage a few of these plants - though I have a couple more each of 3 varieties (rooted cuttings) in pots in the garage and more suckers in a glass of water in the kitchen if I need to replant. Won't replace the 60+ I have in the ground for market but at least it might be enough for our own use.

Might have to just throw in the towel, rig up some support for the cuttings I started and put them in the established garden where the soil and drainage is better (maybe next week the weather will be better too - but I've been saying that for months).

Thanks so much for your help Dave.

Shelly

Hi, got 24-hr turnaround on soil samples from extension office.

Row 1 (Speckled Romans): Loamy Sand, Medium High OM, pH 5.7, Very Low N, Medium P and K, Medium Ca, Very High Mg

But they're still kind of purple, though starting to blossom.

Row 2 (Brandywines): Loamy Sand, Medium High OM, pH 5.6, Very Low N, Medium High P, Medium K and Ca, Very High Mg

These don't look too good at all - yellow/brown bottom leaves, not much new growth, no blossoms.

Row 3 (Gardener's Delight cherries): Sandy Loam, Medium High OM, pH 5.6, Very Low N, Medium High P, Medium K, Medium High Ca, Very High Mg

These are looking pretty good - under same conditions as BWs, and the cherries are blossoming!

Row 4 (larger German Johnsons and 4th of July): Sandy Loam, Medium High OM, pH 6.0, Low N, Medium High P, Medium K, Low Ca, Very High Mg

Not sure why this row is still Low Ca after liming, esp. since the pH came up from April, but these guys aren't looking great either, not as bad as BWs, getting some blossoms, but some purple blotches and what might be EB, even though I have 1 4th of July and 1 GJ with a couple of fruit.

Row 5 (Hybrids - not sure what, maybe some GJ mixed in but smaller plants): Sandy Loam, Medium High OM, pH 5.9, Low N, Medium High P, Low K (?!), High Ca, Very High Mg

This row didn't have as many amendments, limed the original soil just the same, mixed in more leaves since I didn't have any UCG left but otherwise the same as other rows. This is the wettest row though, and some very acid (sub)soil piled up next to it washed in so I'm surprised the pH is so high, but since the soil that washed in is Low in K I'm sure what the K reading is all about. These were some leggy plants that I put in horizontally, some soil got washed off some, roots growing on exposed stems, smaller plants to the south end got almost buried by washed-in/down soil so none of these are doing too well, but they were just "throw them in and see what they do" spares.

So, extension recommends varying amounts of lime (but I'm not sure when - just in the fall?), and 10-10-10 now (15lb/1000sf) and next spring. With these numbers, and given the current state of the plants, I'm not sure if I should be using 10-10-10 or something different? I did do a light foliar feed with half-strength 18-21-21 yesterday.

Recommendations? TIA

Since you had the soil tests done why wouldn't you go with their recommendations for fixing? Little point in having the testing if you don't follow the recommendations that result.

Dave

I'm just wondering if it's a "one size fits all" type recommendation, since they recommended 10-10-10 in April, and they're recommending 10-10-10 now, in the same amount, for all areas, all crops, not just the tomatoes. All the soil is Low to Very Low in N, but P and K vary (from Medium High to Low), so does pH (from 4.7 to 6.0), so why would you use exactly the same thing in same proportions everywhere (though the lime amounts *did* vary)? Maybe they just recommend 10-10-10 as the "default" fertilizer, and make the amount dependent on the N requirement, don't really tailor it to P and K at all?

I did email back, but it was after hours, so will have to wait and see when they get back to me. Just looking for more info/opinions.

Anyway, since I went and bought the 18-21-21 water soluble stuff as recommended, should I continue the foliar feedings, or use per package directions for normal watering (roots, every 7-14 days), dilute it half strength but use it on the roots,or should I now go out and buy 10-10-10? Or if I'm buying yet another thing, should it be a "tomato" type fertilizer instead? I read on this forum not to give tomatoes too much N or they won't fruit, but the soil is low in N, so they need it, but how much, how often, and just the ones that aren't blossoming right now? Or blossoms/fruit be hanged, it's early enough (they're small enough), just give them a good shot of N to get them growing?

Sorry, but I've never had to fertilize any veggies before in 15 years experience so this is all new to me.