Purple prince-potato leaf? Carolyn and others, please help!!

14 years ago

This came up in a previous discussion but I decided to make it's own thread. I mentioned I have Purple Prince and it's potato leaf. Carolyn said Purple Prince should be regular leaf. I would never argue with her, she is absolutely the most educated tomato expert on the planet, as far as I'm concerned. However, I just went to Tomato Fest website, where I purchased my seeds and it says Purple Prince is a potato leaf variety. So, I'd like to know what exactly am I growing??

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Comments (14)

homegardenpa
14 years ago
I also bought a potato leaf red brandywine from them this year - though, they didn't list it as potato leaf, or I wouldn't have bought it, since the real red brandywine is regular-leafed. It seems tomatofest isn't quite the authority on the finer details of each variety.

If Carolyn and others say it's supposed RL, then it's supposed to be RL, and the seed tomatofest has isn't true to type. Doesn't mean it won't taste good or grow well, but does mean it won't match the more accurate descriptions you may have read from Carolyn and others.
carolyn137
14 years ago
Purple Prince is RL and I've never grown it.

Purple Price is PL and I have grown it and it's one of the parents of Pale Perfect Purple bred by Tad Smith.

Notice that there's only one letter difference between Prince and Price, which leaves room for confusion, for sure, but they are not the same variety.

Purple Price was listed in the SSE YEarbook back in 1990, from Tad Smith and listed by Craig LeHoullier. I didn't check to backtrack Purple Prince to see when it first was listed. I just happened to scoop the 2001 Yearbook off the floor to my left and it was first listed in that year, seeds from Reinhard Kraft in Germany. But now I'm wondering if that was Reinhard's English translation of perhaps Konige Purpur, or something like that, which would translate out to I guess Purple King, or whatever.

But here I go again trying to trace varieties.

Good enough to answer just the question and the answer is that Purple Prince is RL and secondarily Purple Price is PL.

I usually check out info in my SSE YEarbooks which go back to 1975 when SSE was formed, but I didn't join until 1989 after I moved home back East. And one can also Google info as well, but Tania is very particular about varieties, you'll see that she quotes many SSE members at her website and I've linked to the page with Purple Prince ( RL) with all the info you need. Purple Price is right next to it in the alphabetical listing and you can confirm that it's PL, and I guess I better help Tania fill in the history on that one.

It's good idea, I think, to put tania's site in ones faves for future reference if a person isn't an SSE member and can check that way.

Hope that helps.

Carolyn

Carolyn

Here is a link that might be useful: Tania's Tomato base info Purple Prince
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You'll receive a variety of responses, that I know. Most of the PL varieties I've grown have had stronger foliage cover, which is an advantage, and that's most, but not all. My experience is that PL varieties are better able to withstand the four most common foliage diseases of Early Blight ( A. solani), Septoria Leaf Spot, both fungal, and Bacterial Speck and Bacterial Spot. I've suggested that it's possibly b'c the leaf cuticle might be thicker than that of RL leaves which would make attachement of the pathogens to the leaf surface more difficult. I have no proof for that at all, but my observation has been that when it gets near Fall I see my RL varieties going down with the foliage disease of the season but the PL ones keep going. All of them? No, but many of them. And there will be some folks who will say that they see no difference at all as to foliage disease susceptibility, but then again, it depends on any particular season since the foliage pathogens are spread by wind and rain, and some years can be foliage pathogen free as compared to other years, even with the same variety. Taste? There are some great tasting PL's and some great tasting RL,s so I don't see that as a reason to grow mainly PL's, and indeed they are far fewer than RL's in number. What has bothered me I'll admit, is so many varieties that are known to have PL variants of an original RL variety. Let's say we have the variety Stop Snowing, which is RL, and someone finds a PL variant of that one and then calls it Stop Snowing Potato Leaf or says Stop Snowing (PL). Does that mean that the PL variant is identical to the RL original? Possibly. But there's more than one genetic mechanism that can lead to a change in leaf form and some of those DNA mechanisms can lead to changes in more than one gene, possibly several genes. The PL gene is C, which is dominant to c, its allele CC = RL, homozygous dominant Cc = RL, heterozygous cc = PL, homozygous recessive. If a variety is Cc then a single spontaneous mutation can lead to cc and all is the same except for leaf form. But there's no infomation that says variety X is Cc or CC. Some have compared the following varieties: Cherokee Purple RL Cherokee purple Potato Leaf ( found by Jere Gettle) Spudakee, also Cherokee Purple PL ( found by Bill Malin) When grown in the same season there are differening reports as to whether the Gettle and Malin ones are the same as to taste and performance and whether each of them individually are different from CP itself. There are several other examples I could use. my point? Don't necessarily assume that a PL variant of an RL original is the same until you've grown both in the same season with your conditions so that you can compare them directly and see what you think. Carolyn, an no, PL varieties are not more prone to crossing as was stated in the old literature. I and quite a few others have grown a few thousand varieties each and our collective experience is that PL's don't cross more frequently than RL's
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YEs John, it's possible there could be a foliage mutation but I was asked what the leaf form should be, and it should be RL. And with PL variants popping up in each of the cups it can't be a stray seed , and of course it could be a foliage mutation, which is why I asked about the seed source. You only saw a foliage change after growing Hungarian Giant out for several years. If the seeds being referred to here were from a trade I could understand there being some PL seedlings due to possible crossed seed, but if from a commercial place where they produce their own seed or buy wholesale off the shelf then I wouldn't expect it and would suggest that they be contacted. And for sure, if someone has the space and the interest a wrong leaf form for a variety can be grown out and many do so. I used to think that going from RL to PL meant two separate mutations since there's homozygous dominant, then to heterozygous where RL is still dominant, then to homozygous recessive which is PL, but when there was a nice thread about this a few years ago it was pointed out that other kinds of mutations could also do that and several genes could be involved and so one can't always equate a PL variant with an original RL. I think the best example of that is Cherokee Purple ( RL) and CP PL found by Jere Gettle at Baker Creek and Spudakee, another CP PL found elsewhere. Not all who grow these see the PL variants as being the same as the original RL. It's even harder for me to equate an RL with an original PL b'c it means a back mutation of some kind that has to reverse completely the forward mutation in terms of DNA sequences. I think I saw that once, PL to RL, with all the many varieties I've grown but I'll be darned if I can think of that variety right now. Sigh. Carolyn
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"I'm saying that the only difference I've seen with Dr. Carolyn Pink is the size of fruits on different plants. Yet you say there are other subtleties. What are they?" [Carolyn] Well, since "taste is subjective," Ill leave out all but a few comments that vary on the taste differences Â except for one taste reference from one person, since his taste perception is singular. The biggie seems to be size variances Â which again may be individual perception, unless folks are using calipers to take the measurements Â but even you, Carolyn, say repeatedly here and in the SSE Yearbook that you are unable to select out the smaller Dr. Carolyn Pink and continue to get large cherries from the small cherry seeds and use the word "unstable" to describe that continuing condition. Here are some other quotes that I think indicate some instability with regard to size, shape, and that blossom end scar signature that some see and some donÂt. "It tends to be a medium large cherry size about 3/4 to 7/8 of an inch diameter and it has a small hole where the blossom end scar should be." [Fusion, 6/25/07] "The one I grew apparently has the larger size cherry tomatoes (about an inch and a half) and a very bland flavor. Also, the calyx is extremely large for a cherry, more suitable for a large beefsteak, actually, and it is attached VERY firmly at all stages of ripeness, so that you can't just twist it off." [Doof, 6/25/07] (Note: No one else mentions this tough calyx connection. Has anyone else noticed this unusual characteristic for a cherry tomato?) "I haven't gotten smaller ones as mentioned above, usually the fruit is about an inch and a half on the pink ones and the ivory are somewhat ovalish, not a complete oval like a grape but definitely not totally round." [Albertar, 6/25/07] "From what has been posted above, perhaps these are the larger ones, being one and an eighth to one and a quarter inch in size and there is no little hole in the blossom end." [GonefishinÂ, 7/14,07] "That's correct Bill, saved seed from small fruited ones can give plants with small or larger cherries and it's been that way since I received the seeds from Robert Martin, who also named it Dr. Carolyn Pink. I can't tell you how many times I've saved from the small fruited ones trying to get a pure line of small fruited ones, but so far no go." [Carolyn, 7/14/07] "The size was a bit smaller than Eva Purple Ball, a little lighter in color." [Doof, 7/14/07] "I received a Dr C from Darrel and it has 1 to 1.8 inch pink fruit Â" [Bill R., 7/14/07] "As noted above, there is some variation in the fruit produced from these tomatoes. I am convinced that they are still segregating. I looked back at some photos from last year and realized I described it above as 3/4 to 7/8 inch diameter but my photos are of a fruit closer to 1 inch or just a tad more. The original Dr. Carolyn Pink was distinctly low in sweetness and had relatively strong tomato flavor similar to Galina." [Fusion, 7/15/07] (Note: Fusion says the one he now grows has complex flavor "with a bit more sugar content than average.") "Sounds like I have the large DCP. Large fruit for a cherry type, even a couple that had a sort of mini beefsteak appearance and were close to 2" across (most were not, these odd ones almost looked like fused/doubles)." [Suze, 7/15/07] (note: Suze includes a picture of her Dr. Carolyn Pink in which only one of seven tomatoes exhibits anything resembling a "pinhole blossom end scar.") So, I guess "subtleties" is a bad choice of wording on my part. Maybe I shouldÂve said the obvious instability exhibited by size variance and the remaining mystery as to whatÂs up with those other color lines. But then I guess the Dr. Carolyn in ivory is stable with regard to color and size? If so, that's an interesting contrast to the Dr. Carolyn Pink. Bill
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tania_in_vancouver
14 years ago
Could this possibly be Purple Price and not Purple Prince?

Purple Price is PL, and Purple Prince is RL.

Tania

Here is a link that might be useful: Purple Price
homegardenpa
14 years ago
Based on the previous posts by Carolyn and Tania and the description on TF.com, what you have is almost definitly "Purple Price" - TF.com has a typo.

Description as listed on TF.com:
"A Virginia potato leaf heirloom introduced by Tad Smith."
carolyn137
14 years ago
Based on the previous posts by Carolyn and Tania and the description on TF.com, what you have is almost definitly "Purple Price" - TF.com has a typo.
Description as listed on TF.com:
"A Virginia potato leaf heirloom introduced by Tad Smith."

****

Le me get this straight.

Gary at T Fest is listing Purple Prince, but then saying it was introduced by Tad Smith, when I know that Tad, whom I know, introduced Purple Price (PL)

So does someone want to contact Gary and tell him what he's really listing is Purple Price, not Purple Prince?

As I said, that one letter difference between Price and Prince can and now has caused confusion.

Carolyn, and whoever does contact him he does read here from time to time , especially if T Fest is written about, so you can direct him to this thread, or even send it in an e-mail as a link if that would be better. So who volunteers? I know Gary but I think it's better if persons who have ordered from him write to him.
ljpother
14 years ago
The purple prince I grew last year was regular leaf -- Mackenzie Seeds
tracydr
Original Author
14 years ago
Thanks everyone. This is all very interesting and helpful!!
bluemater
14 years ago
Carolyn..I'll do it...I've bought seeds from TF for years and I've had a few issues with them in the past two years (mostly the fruit not being true to the type of variety it's supposed to be)...
helenh
14 years ago
I really like Pale Perfect Purple which has a connection to Purple Price so you may like the tomato you got.
carolyn137
14 years ago
Purple Price is PL and I have grown it and it's one of the parents of Pale Perfect Purple bred by Tad Smith

****

Yes Helen, I mentioned that in an earlier post.( SMile)

Tad crossed Purple Price with Ozark Pink and Pale Perfect Purple was one of his selections.

And now something to chuckle about. When Tad first made PPP public he called it Pale Perfect Purple, but then apparently forgot that name and then called it something a bit different the second year, so for a while, and I didn't take the time to check this out with the most recent Yearbook, it was called Perfect Purple, Purple Perfect and also Pale Perfect Purple all in the same YEarbook. LOL

I stick with his original name for it which is Pale Perfect Purple, b'c it is. ( smile)

I've grown Purple Price itself and the taste is stronger than with PPP, probably b'c of some of the taste genes from Ozark Pink that were inherited by PPP.

I'm just so sorry I've lost touch with Tad b/c he was a good friend of mine as well as Craig LeHoullier. Tad sent several of his F1 seeds from crosses he made to both of us and the fruits were lucious.

He has a Ph. D in I think plant breeding and for many years worked in the peanut fields in the south on some project, got tired of bending over in the heat so much and moved to a well known firm whose name I've now forgotten where he headed up the division working on Late BLight with potatoes.

One year he sent me a three way cross he'd made for me to grow out, he said I had a 1/64 chance of getting what he wanted. The first year I planted out only 12 plants and lucked out and got it. It's a small yellow/gold with red stripes and I cleverly named it Tad. LOL

I sent seeds to my tomato friend Craig, which was fine with Tad and Tad asked that that Craig and i not share seeds of it until he had a chance to upsize it, which never happened.

So what's my point?

The origin of Lucky Cross and Little Lucky, both gold/red bicolors now well known, is now known to be an accidental cross bwetween Brandywine and Tad that occurred in Craig's garden.

Quite a few folks are still working with different selections from that initial cross and when I saw a picture of one of them named Striped Sweetheart, I could see Tad written all over it. It's a selection done by Lee, who is the co-organizer of Tomatopalooza in Raleigh along with Craig, and I know Lee well, he's actually doing some seed production for me this year, so Lee sent me some seeds and it's on my grow out list for this summer. Craig has another one and maybe I can fit it in next year.

PPP also can also refer to Pink Ping Pong, so we shouldn't forget that either. LOL

Carolyn, who tends to wander when something is posted that brings back memories of past events. ( smile)
mtbigfish
14 years ago
It reads on TomatoFest correctly so either it was fixed that quick or tracydr could you have read it wrong?? What does the TomatoFest seed package read??
See TomatoFest blurb below.
Dennis

Purple Price
Our Price: $2.95

A Virginia potato leaf heirloom introduced by Tad Smith. A potato leaf heirloom that yields medium-large, 10 oz., pink-purple fruits with excellent flavor. Similar to Cherokee Purple but an earlier variety.
mtbigfish
14 years ago
Gary send me a copy of email he sent to a Barbara from TV addressing the problem. He did fix it and explained that Purple Prince was dropped.
He made an offer to refund or send seed of that persons choice.
Dennis
tracydr
Original Author
14 years ago
I think he must have fixed it this week. I emailed him last week and checked the website. It was still incorrect when I emailed him. I never heard back from the email. I checked my seed package and it says Purple Prince.
tracydr
Original Author
14 years ago
Just an update-the Purple Prince has been taken off tomatofest's website and Purple Price has been added. Gary Ibsen sent me a copy of an email he had sent to a "Barbara" who I guess is a member here, contacted two years ago. He says he fixed this two years ago. Anyway, he offered to give me two packs of seeds for my troubles.
Glad the problem is fixed and I know what I'm growing. Thanks for all your help!

Purple prince-potato leaf? Carolyn and others, please help!!

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Purple prince-potato leaf? Carolyn and others, please help!!

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