It may matter which commercial source is selected.

I had 2 different 'wrong variety' seed packs from one botique seed vendor.

When I wrote them about the mixup, they were quite nice, explained the reason for the mixup, sent me replacement seeds and quite a few others too as an apology.

Replacement seeds planted the next year were the same 'wrong variety'. The tomatoes weren't black as advertised and couldn't speak a word of russian.

Home-saved seeds have their problems too. I am guessing that a large number of savers do not bag their blossoms, so 5% to 10% of the seeds may be crossed with another variety.

In the case of the wrong Russian Black seeds, the seller received seeds from two different sources, one not so reliable. So even a seller with best intentions can have wrong seeds.

Know your source?

If you're talking about seed you save yourself, the answer is that commercial seed is almost always inferior. I've almost never had a problem with mixed seed or bad germination rates with seed I've saved. Unfortunately, I can't say the same thing about commercial seed. It really pisses me off sometimes, to put it crudely.

Treated seed does not seem to affect germ% until the second and third year. In other words, untreated 3 year old seed will out germ 3 year old treated.

I don't know why they are treating the seed. The only growers who would likely need treated are the ones directly seeding tomatoes in a field instead of transplants. With the cost of this hybrid seed these days, I can't see direct seeding being an option.

My only other afterthought is they are treating it so it does not have longevity.

AKA Job security

AS I see it there are two issues here, one being seed viability and the other being seed purity.

Seed viability, as in age of seed and germination results, can vary widely depending on which vendor you deal with. Some seed sources produce all their own seed ( OP seed), some produce a little, some buy off the shelf from wholesalers, some subcontract out seed production and some do various combos of any that I've mentioned.

For instance, Sandhill Preservation produces all of their seed and no tomato seed sold is over two years old which is quite remarkable since they list about 400 tomato varieties.Mariseeds produces all of their as well. Just a couple of examples.

That's for OP seed.

But it also depends on how a source stores the seed they have ( both OP and hybrid) and also if they do germination tests before selling the seed.

A seed package may say packed for 2008 but that tells you only when the seed was packed and not when it was produced.

With traded seed you seldom know the seed age unless the person produced it themselves and then puts the date on the pack of seeds. Very often folks who trade are using commercial seed and thus you have no idea of seed age.

So that's a few words about seed viability.

Crossed seed to many is a much bigger concern. I've been posting online about tomatoes since 1990 and from what's been posted I'd say there's a much higher rate of crossed seed being traded than there is buying seed from a known good commercial source.

I used to do a wrong varieties thread here at GW and it was really illuminating to see which seed companies did best in terms of selling pure seed.

Home saved seed can be crossed as well, and the degree to which that happens is directly related to several issues.

If a person is growing hundreds of plants, and hundreds of varieties, as I used to do for many years, there's no way that one can bag blossoms. But I knew what my X pollintation rate was and it was about 5%, which means on average that of seed saved from 100 varieties about 5 will be crossed. And that gets into lots of other issues as well in terms of how many fruits were processed for fermentation from how many plants, etc.

over time I've listed several hundred varieties in the SSE YEarbook and to date, only about 5 out of maybe 400-500 varieties has crossed seed. That's just with geographic isolation.

In the past I've made two large seed offers here at GW with close to 300 varieties and have specified NO TRADES wanted. That's how storngly I feel about that.

Just last mointh I made another large seed offer elsewhere and said the same; no trades wanted.

Now I know that for many folks that it's the thrill of the chase to obtain seeds from trading with others as well as less money output, and that's fine if those folks know enough about the varieties in advance to be able to tell if what they have is or or not the variety they think they have, but many don't do the research they need to know the traits of varieties. And so they save seed and wrong varieties are perpetuated as sent to others.

Above someone mentioned treated seed. That's usually more common with hybrid seed and some wholesale places do treat with an antifungal which will show up as green or blue seeds.

And some will also treat with TSP which makes for a smaller, non-fuzzy, darker colored seed.

I grow far more OP's than hybrids but I haven't seen any difference in seed viability between treated and just fermented seed.

But all commercial places and indeed home growers who produce seed will, or should be fermenting the seed.

Lastly, if I send out seed for variety today, and the seed is fresh, meaning from the summer of 2007, and I ask for feedback on germination, which I've donme in the past, that seed will show a range of germination from zero, yes zero, to 100% germination. And that's b/c no two folks germinate their seed the same way using the same artificial mix, or use domes or not, or bottom heat or not, and on and on.

And I've come to accept the fact that some folks are just better at germinating seed. ( smile)

Hope the above helps.

Carolyn

coolbythecoast - would be buying from dianeseeds.com - she has both varieties and i cant get a few flower seeds as well, shipping is ok

seedboy, not seeds i would have saved myself but seed that I might be able to trade for, which would obviously be the cheaper way of getting them but....

timmy1 - didn't even think about treated seeds - which would be the commercial ones.

Thanks, all.

Crossed seed to many is a much bigger concern. I've been posting online about tomatoes since 1990 and from what's been posted I'd say there's a much higher rate of crossed seed being traded than there is buying seed from a known good commercial source...My opinion, deduced from casual observation, is that the cause of "home-saved seed impurity" is likely to have been the result of carelessness as much as to have been the result of a cross. And the more varieties that the seed-saver saves, the more salient would be this effect. Some folks are very careful, whilst others are not so careful in this activity.

For example, from Carolyn's statements, I presume that her seed-saving technique falls into the first category, and that she assumes that the seed-saving techniques of some others may not... a valid assumption.

Reg

carolyn137 & reginald_25 - thank you!

Both of you have explained what turned out to be my question much better than I asked it.

My concern was really about seed purity - I don't have alot of space and want to grow something specific, yes, I will take a chance on buying commercial but it looks like what I need to do.

Thanks very very much for the details

Okay here is a theory of mine: When saving your own (Bagged blossoms for purity) seeds the plant may even get better over generations if you save from the best, healthiest plants. These will with every generation be more acclimatized to your microclimate. If you buy seeds from a source that is oh, say 2 zones warmer, then those resulting plants will be genetically more used to that zone. But by picking the one that does the best each year, you will get a batch of seeds that will produce great plants in your zone 5 when a few generations ago their 'ancestors' came from zone 7. That old survival of the fittest concept. Does this make sense or am I talking out of my nether-regions?

That old survival of the fittest concept. Does this make sense or am I talking out of my nether-regions?

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Well, I'm not going to comment on your tomato sanity,LOL, but will share the following.

There has never been documented improved performance, called adaptation, with tomatoes that I'm aware of.

First, most of us who save seeds don't select just the biggest or best, we save seeds from several fruits off of several plants in order to help maintain the genetic biodiversity that exists within a variety.

I think it should also be mentioned that a good percentage of seed sold by the major companies is produced in the Far East, where at least two crops a year can be done for seed production.

So you've got varieties such as Siberia, Glacier, Early Girl, Stupice, Matina, Bloody Butcher, Kimberly, Siletz and more, all early varieties, being grown in hot humid sweltering India, China, Taiwan and elsewhere in the far East. And yet they perform very well in cold gardening zones.

Adaptation of varieties is known and documanted for something like wheat. Specifically, Ethiopian wheats have been shown to adapt over time, in which case they're called landraces and the adaptation time has been a couple of thousand years.

So that's my take on adaptation and tomatoes.( smile)

Carolyn

There is another concern that causes fear when I purchase seeds from the smaller outlets, especially the ones that state outright on their brochures: "Under no circumstances are any of our seeds chemically treated". Along with their seeds you risk purchasing a host of mail order diseases. If you get a bacterial disease the chances are quite high that it was transmitted thru the seed.

In the NC research program I've heard that one prominent tomato breeder won't even accept seeds from another research unit at the same institution unless they undergo a 40 min. treatment regimen. The question remains as to why I should be so willing to risk a bacterial disease outbreak in my tomatoes when I wouldn't share a hankerchief with a cold sufferer.

The question remains as to why I should be so willing to risk a bacterial disease outbreak in my tomatoes when I wouldn't share a hankerchief with a cold sufferer.

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Please let me break this down a bit.

If you're talking foliage diseases caused by Bacterial Speck and Spot, fermentation, which is not chemical, if you will, reduces but cannot remove ALL of those pathogens from the seed surface in the same way that fermentation cannot remove ALL the fungal foliage pathogens and some systemic fungal pathogens from the seed surface.

But infection is based both on numbers of pathogens possibly still there as well as other environmental factors which can't be controlled.

That's why the tomato indistry went from saying resistance to tolerance, as far as diseases are concerned.

The most serious bacterial diseases are the systemic ones and the best way of trying to lessen those from occuring is by a very controlled hot water treatment, which is not amenable to the home gardener.

So are you saying that you buy only treated tomato seeds, meaning ones that are coated with antifungals, not antibacterials, and only ones that have been hot water treated?

TSP treatment is done by very few and is used most specifically to remove TMV which is no longer a problem for the home gardener as it used to be.

There are acid and other treatments as well, but most vendors don't speak to specific treatments, including most of the commercial catalogs that I've had access to.

Carolyn

Thanks for answering Carolyn. I guess my theory does hold water, just not tomato juice.

I think it's clear that fermentation has gaps in its ability to annihilate external pathogens. It's not a sufficient process. So, what to do?

Pre-soak your seeds prior to sowing for about fifteen minutes in a solution made from a gallon of water and a 1/4 cup Clorox. That should destroy practically all pathogens (if not all of them). This solution, 1/4 cup bleach to 1 gallon of water is the solution used to wash out ambulances--you swab it on and let it sit for fifteen minutes, then rinse. Obviously, a gallon of solution is going to be far more than you'll need to sanitize your seeds, but once you make a gallon it keeps for a long time--you can pour off what you need when you need it.

A long time ago I wrote the GW Seed Saving FAQ for saving tomato seeds which discusses fermentation. I keep it there because it's a traditional method, but I don't do it myself anymore. I now do a sanitizing soak and scrub with a chlorine based cleanser, it doesn't have the gloppy mess or mold of fermentation and I can put seeds to drying plate in minutes, not hours or days.

Here is a link that might be useful: Photo Album

Stokes is the only seed source that I know offers HWT seed.

Carolyn, I'm just a grower but my gut feeling is that there are great differences in how seed companies handle their seed. I admit that I am taking a risk in ordering seed from 5 suppliers this year, 2 of which I am most concerned about.

Currently I have not been plagued by bacterial or virus diseases on my tomatoes but I've seen the images of whole fields infected and the source of infection was typically the greenhouse grower with the seed often the original source of infection.

Larger seed suppliers "Appear" to make a concerted effort to calm my fears by inserting pages if seed born disease information within their catalogs. Basically I admit I don't know which ones use hot water treatment, chlorine treatment or other means. Your statement about the lack of specifics in the seed catelogs is noted. But a company that outright admits that it does not use the most effective methods leaves me more than a little concerned.

You probably have a knowledge of the infectious level of the various bacterial diseases. Is one cfu/seed considered safe? My sources seem to say no but since they destroy the seed in the testing process they never can gaurantee that the shipped seeds are all free or the bacteria.

Regarding the Resistance /Tolerance issue I am citing a statement which I believe true from the Siegers seed catelog:

"Over the years there has been much discussions on the terminology used to describe the interaction of plants to pests and pathogens. It seems every seed company and species group has used slightly different terminology to define those reactions.

In an effort to standardize the terminology, in the spring of 2005 the International Seed Federation (ISF) finalized their position paper on this subject. Along with members of The American Seed Trade association (ASTA), most breeder/producers support this position paper and has adapted the updated terminology...

Terminology for Defining the reaction of a Plant Variety to Pest and Pathogen Attack:

Immunity. Plant varieties which are not subject to attack or infection by a specific pest/pathogen are considered immune.

Resistance. Not as strong as immunity; two levels of resistance are defined.

High Resistance(HR): plant varieties that restrict the growth and development of the specific pest or pathogen under normal pest or pathogen pressure when compared to susceptible varieties. These plant varieties can exhibit some symptoms or damage under heavy pest or pathogen pressure. Plant varieties with Resistant (R) are not immune to the pest/pathogen.

Intermediate Resistance(IR): plant varieties that restrict the growth and development of the specific pest/pathogen, but may exhibit a greater range of symptoms or damage compared to resistant varieties. Intermediate resistant plant varieties will usually show less severe symptoms or damage than susceptible plant varieties when grown under similar environmental conditions and/or pest/pathogen pressure, but may have heavy damage under heavy pressure. Plant varieties with Intermediate Resistance (IR) are not immune to the pest/pathogen.

Susceptible is defined as the inability of a plant variety to restrict the growth and development of a specific pest/pathogen. Plant varieties that are susceptible will show damage when infected and are more likely to havy heavy damage under moderate levels of pest/pathogen pressure.

Terminology to Describe the Reaction of a Plant to ABIOTIC Stresses
Abiotic stresses are those caused by the environment and not by a living organism.

Tolerance is the ability of a plant to endure abiotic or environmental stress with more limited affect on growth, appearance and yield although, under higher levels of abiotic stress, the plant variety may be damaged."

Copied from 2008 Siegers Seed Co. Commercial Growers Catalog , p96.

Since I accept the reputations of the organizations in support of these definitions than think it logical to follow that lead.

In an effort to standardize the terminology, in the spring of 2005 the International Seed Federation (ISF) finalized their position paper on this subject. Along with members of The American Seed Trade association (ASTA), most breeder/producers support this position paper and has adapted the updated terminology...

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I read it with interest but the organizations which adopted those terms are dealing with many different kinds of fruits and vegetables and grains, etc., actually anything that can be grown from seed.

I prefer to go with the terminology put forth by the Tomato Industry folks since that's what's being discussed in this Forum and I do agree with them that tolerance is a better word when discussing tomatoes, since there is NO variety immune to or fully resistant to any known tomato disease.

It's a metter of degree and I think tolerance expresses it best.

Just my opinion on word usage.

(You probably have a knowledge of the infectious level of the various bacterial diseases. Is one cfu/seed considered safe? My sources seem to say no but since they destroy the seed in the testing process they never can gaurantee that the shipped seeds are all free or the bacteria.)

I've never researched that and so can't give you a good complete answer but when HWT is used for bacteria felt to be in the endosperm I'm pretty darn sure they would NOT go through all the testing known to show that a particular seed batch had some seeds that were so infected.

Rather, they offer HWT for commercial farmers based on prior knowledge that HWT has been shown to lessen the amount of possible endosperm contamination with some of the systemic, not foliar, bacterial pathogens.

And my sense about the frequency of systemic bacterial tomato infections is not a widespread problem, although I can't cite specific data. For large scale commercial farmers, perhaps, but not for the home grower or the smaller commercial businesses.

And I'm not in the mood to Google that either. LOL

Carolyn