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Tennessee Gardening

Elderberries

17 years ago

Does anyone here have any experience with the elderberry varieties such as Black Lace? They are listed as maturing to 10', but what I'm wondering is do you grow them like a tree? I have a spot by my sidewalk where I'd like to have a small tree, but it would have to grow upright enough and be 'limbed up' high enough so that people could walk under it.

Thanks in advance for any info,

Frances

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Comments (9)

saraintn
17 years ago
I heard on the radio recently about a wreath making workshop on December 10 and I am not sure if it was with the Friends of the Gardens or thru the UT gardens. Does anyone have any info because I am sure I would need to register soon.
saraintn
17 years ago
Sorry, I was trying to make a new topic and not to reply to your post Frances and obviously I am not sure how to do this.
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Interesting the very different experiences folks are having with this shrub. So I thought I would add my two cents from Toronto. I have two in my front garden (one of either side of the front walk), which is part sun and clay soil with lots of organic content. And they are excellent. I keep them relatively small with regular pinching, but I let them go a bit this Spring so I would get flowers and there are dozens on each shrub (still only about three inches across but growing everyday). They are bullet-proof and vigorous, for me, and their colour and form and highly dissected leaves are not easily replaceable. I have them with (among others) Liberty hosta, pincushion boxwood, Rozanne Geranium, Jack Frost Brunnera, Full Moon Maple, Krossa Regal and Blue Mammoth hostas, and Incrediball hydrangeas. I love the mix but it would be boring without the contrast this shrub brings, which makes everything around it pop. If I can figure out how to post pictures someday, I will.
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Cut & paste from an older post of mine... Common elderberry, AKA American black elederberry, (Sambucus nigra subsp. canadensis), is native to the Eastern U.S. and grows as a bush to 6-8 feet. The European elderberry, Sambucus nigra, is more upright/tree-like, but about the same height. These both have dark purple berries. There is also Sambucus nigra subsp. cerulea, which has blue berries and is native to the West -- I've never seen one. There is also a completely different species, Sambucus racemosa, that has poisonous red berries (not purple or blue) that are NOT edible due to higher levels of cyanide (not sure if OK after cooking). For common elderberries, fruit quality depends on cultivar, although even the "ornamental" cultivars produce usable fruit. It's recommended to cook them due to cyanide content -- the toxicity is low, but eating the raw fruit can cause nausea (how much it takes varies person to person). Cooked berries are safe and make great jelly, syrup, and wine. The flower clusters can be fried.
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canadian elderberry vs. black elderberry
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I still have a good amount of non-native plants in my landscape, but I've decided to plant just native from now on. Without significant research of each and every nativar out there, and more that are introduced each year, there's just no simple answer to your question. Nativars have been known to spread or interbreed with local native plants displacing native flora. Sometimes the nativar can support local species, but sometimes not. It's a crapshoot. By planting naturally growing native spieces, it assuridly eliminates any possible negative impacts. I have Canadian elderberry in my yard. I consider it to be one of my most beautiful plants. Cultivated in the garden, it's much more stunning than in the wild IMO. I think the white flowers and red/black berries against green leaves are prettier than the dark leaves with pink flowers of the cultivars that you're considering, but again, that's just my opinion. I can appreciate you wanting a plant that gives a punch of color to an otherwise green landscape. Having said that, I often suggest to people that they not plant burning bush because it is invasive. They say to me that it is not invasive in their yard. I tell them that the birds eat the fruit and spread the seed to natural areas. They say they have never seen fruit on their plants. I say that the fruit is inconspicuous. My point is, you just don't know if the plants in your garden are invasive by simple observation.
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You know I have only one American type, and it doesn't do well, go figure? Who the heck knows?? I'll tell you all I can. It is between houses so it only receives about half a day, maybe slightly more of sun. In ground, we have a clay loam with a pH of about 6.5. It is very nice soil. Every spring I put bagged composted manure around it. I put a small amount of Dynamite control release fertilizer. And once a month use an organic. Usually Holly-Tone. I fertilize my grass with Milorganite, so it probably takes that up too. It is now approved for garden use, but I only use it on my grass. I grow over 20 different fruits and veggies. Not worried if some gets in the garden. I mulch with leaves or straw, but often I scatter it with the lawn mower. It needs more right now. I should clear more of the grass around the plants. If I left the 2nd year canes I could probably get a bigger yield. But I'm good with the 5 pounds or so I get. Going back to the subject of this thread, the thought came to me that maybe in Florida it's nematodes, as the state is notorious for having them. The kind you don't want. Maybe that was covered already? I heard tomatoes are hard to grow there because of the nematodes, and maybe elderberries are susceptible to them? I don't know? Some plants are not. I cannot grow blueberries in my soil. The west side of the state is all sand and that is where the pH is low and they grow them. I'm on the east side. I do grow blueberries but in containers, and raised beds filled with pine bark and peat. I use sulfuric acid to lower pH of tap water, but usually use rainwater (pH of 4.7) for my blueberries. I have 10 plants. Most of the other elderberries I grow are ornamental. I grow a variegated euro, Black Lace, and Black Beauty. All do very well here in ground.
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brandon7 TN_zone7
17 years ago
Sara,

To make a new post you need to be on the Tennessee Gardening main page (the page you were on just prior to viewing someone else's post). Down at the bottom of that page, if you are logged in, you will see an area titled "Post a Message to the Forum". If you enter a message there, it will start a new string (post). However, when you are viewing an existing post and see "Post a Follow-Up", a post there will result in a comment added to the end of that post.

You may have already figured all that out, but if not, I hope this helps. If you ever have any question at all about how to use gardenweb, pleast don't hesitate to email me. I have been on here a long time and know most of the tricks, I think.

Brandon

P.S. Someone answer Frances's questions!
anntn6b
17 years ago
I tried to plant several of the 'better' cultivars of Elderberries in our back yard. I knew Elderberries would grow there because we had what our neighbor described as one of the best elderberry bushes in our end of the county- about a hundred feet from where the new bushes went in. The established bush was on the shady/north side of a two story high barn.
The new bushes never did anything good. They stayed short and DH mowed them down one year thinking they were weeds.

Well, he was sort of right. Elderberries are weeds around here. And I know the locations of quite a few as I want to make jelly from them for a cousin who remembers it as the kind she grew up eating.
A good elderberry bush ends up with pounds of fruit hanging from the ends of the stems. Once it's harvested, it's upright again. But the berries do stain, not as bad as poke, but stain nonetheless.

My most consistant upright growing shrub/small tree is the red twigged dogwood. It is shrubby, rather than tree like, but I have it planted where it doesn't look bad against the creamy yellow of our house but where I can see the !!red twigs in winter against the grey green of winter as I work in the kitchen.

I'd also consider a gingko for upright trainable growth and I do love the yellow leaves in the fall.

Wish I could report better news on the elderberries (and I'd still like that butterfly bush and I have a Alba meidiland for your Momma.)

Ann
decolady01
17 years ago
We have elderberries growing wild here at the farm. Twice I have tried some named elderberry culitvars, but they never did anything and finally died. Now I've decided why bother, because the wild ones produce more than enough fruit for us and the birds. The ones here could certainly be grown for people to walk under. But I'd think they'd be rather messy when the petals drop. Also in the fall. The birds love the elderberries and spend a lot of time on them.

Sorry not to be of more help to you.

Becky
krikit
Original Author
17 years ago
Hey thanks Ann & Becky for the info, of course I'd have liked hearing that they are wonderful small trees, etc. - but, I'm always glad to know upfront rather than experience the disappointment first hand. I've had plenty of that!

Ann, I'll get with you sometime about bringing the little butterfly bush up .... and having a nice visit!

Thanks again,
Frances
milo_z7
17 years ago
anntn6b: The purple-leaved elderberry cultivars need more sunlight than the green forms (the purple pigment acts as a sunscreen), if they are still alive you could try moving them to a sunnier site.
Cindi_KS
17 years ago
Frances,
I have the variegated elderberry...wish I could remember the name..and it became a small tree. Very lovely until this summer when it got some sort of fungus and lost most of its leaves. I also have Black Beauty which after 5 years is only 6 feet tall. This year I paid $$$ for Black Lace and I'm really disappointed in it. So far, it is 2 feet wide and only 1 foot tall. The foliage is fine, but it is nothing like the "Japanese maple for the north" that I was hoping for. None of mine have had the lovely berries (yet) that you see on the the wild varieties or even the cultivated varieties used for wine making.
I would agree with the advice to find a red twigged dogwood or a gingko. I have better luck with both of them. Myself...I'm going to keep babying my elderberries, try to see if a sunnier location will bring on the berries next year.
cindi
krikit
Original Author
17 years ago
Thanks a bunch to all! It's so good to be relieved of that 'gotta have that' feeling, that unfortunately ends with a big disappointment.

Frances

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