"While we're on the subject of Monsanto:
Ever wonder where all the honey bees went? Ask Monsanto.

They came up with a genetically-modified soy called "Round-up Ready" soy. The plants don't need bees to pollinate them as they produce soy beans without having been pollinated and it's just as well, because the crops are dusted with Round-up. This kills any and all other flowering plants in both the immediate and surrounding area, reducing the honey bee's foraging area and sooner or later they are all gone too, I suspect! "

AgNIC held its yearly conference last May at OARDC--they maintain our AgNIC partner site for Bees and Pollination. It was a a great conference ending with a very informative lecture on CCD.

People who yell the sky is falling need to move out from under the nut tree.

Here is a link that might be useful: OSU Colony Collapse Disorder Links

Hoosier & Carolyn,
I certainly hope you're not condemning anyone by standing behind their philosophical views towards what they consider "unethical" or "improper" practices. The views against Monsanto should certainly be taken into consideration. And whether or not you agree with them, they're still entitled to them. Like it or not, Monsanto HAS produced chemicals that have been shown to be very dangerous.They HAVE also produced GE seeds that many believe to also be dangerous.
Now I'm not coming down on either side, but I have seen unethical practices by large corporations with lots of money and strong arm tactics. I do know that Monsanto has sued farmers, and Percy Schmeiser comes to mind. A farmer from Saskatchewan Canada, whose Canola fields were contaminated with Monsanto's genetically engineered Round-Up Ready Canola by pollen from a nearby farm. Monsanto says it doesn't matter how the contamination took place, and is therefore demanding Schmeiser pay their Technology Fee.
Also, didn't I hear something about Iraqi farmers not able to plant OP vegetables, but Monsanto seed? How did this happen? Lobbying perhaps? I don't know, but we have to admit, it does strip personal freedoms away from ordinary folks in the interest of money. This seems to be the reason for most of the cry. Some don't want it, but that does not matter. "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"
Dave

Dave, no, my point is that if the facts can condemn Monsanto then there is no good reason to give as "evidence" that which is nothing more than Internet rumors, urban myths, half-truths, and outright fabrications ... such as "Iraqi farmers not able to plant OP vegetables, but (only) Monsanto seed."

good grief

"Also, didn't I hear something about Iraqi farmers not able to plant OP vegetables, but Monsanto seed?"

For one thing, it's not even Mansanto, most of the seed was donated by Hazera.
Hazera is a Israeli company, and is the largest seed company in Israel.
Second thing, almost all of the tomato crops over there have been wiped out by TYLCV. Hazera has developed hybrids resistant to "tomato yellow leaf curl virus".
Third, they are hybrids, so after the initial donation, the Iraqi farmers will obviously have to buy them if they want to continue to grow them. No one is forcing them to buy anything.

So the big, mean companies have spent millions developing resistant seed, gave them the seed for free so they could at least have a crop at all, and made the seed available for them to buy in smaller quantities after the first crop, and without it, they would not be able to grow tomatoes at all.

Instead of giving them credit, some stupid internet rumor is bashing them.

Corrie

Who the seed came from is irrelevant. The argument is over the fact that Iraqi farmers are not able to grow the crops they want. The order was given to grow hybrid seed. And when they replant, they must buy more seed, thus raising their costs and taking away their choices.
I'm not sure what part of that you don't understand.
They're told they must buy seeds for crop "A", and then buy more seeds every year to grow more crop "A".
hmmm.. not sure where the freedom is in that.

So, are you saying this article below in untrue?

Also, I notice Percy Schmeiser was conveniently left out of the rebuttal.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Iraq and Monsanto

Wikis are non-reliable news sources.

Dave:

While your statement implies that Iraqi farmers cannot grow open pollinated cultivars and can only grow from Monsanto seed ... my "rebuttal" to your misinformation is based on the fact that Iraqi farmers can grow other than Monsanto seed and can in fact grow open pollinated cultivars.

It's really very simple ... you state something you "heard" and apparently are willing to repeat without substantiation. The political blog you linked to does not substantiate your statement. So it remains nothing more than rumor-mongering pure and simple.

With regard to Mr. Schmeiser's legal problems with Monsanto, I did reply: "My point is that if the facts can condemn Monsanto then there is no good reason to give as 'evidence' that which is nothing more than Internet rumors, urban myths, half-truths, and outright fabrications." Get it?

Bill

You're dodging the whole issue.
I gave a reference to something and asked if it was true.
Just because it came from the internet does not mean it's INCORRECT. I mean, everything you're saying is on a public forum. Using your logic, everything you say cannot be substantiated and therefore can be discredited.
My simple question was, "is it true".
The simple fact is, the article gave names. It would be easy to discredit them. It was not not a generalization of the issue. The fact is, it's a very detailed article.
You can't make it go away just because it doesn't support your position.

A good way to sweep it under the carpet is to just say "it's a wiki" or "it came from the internet".
My answer is "so what".
The question still stands. "Is it true"?
Since you don't know if it is or not, why not say so?
Your most logical answer would be "maybe".

As I said before, I don't come down on either side of the argument. I just think that some questions have to be answered.

FWIW, many very educated, smart and fair people write wikis :-)

Yes, Dave, I see that you asked "So, are you saying this article below in untrue?"

After skimming through the first several paragraphs, didn't bother closely reading the entire article because I've read a handful of other same or similar dreck regarding Article 81, and it's usually written by some hysterical eco-nut pushing a one-sided political agenda.

And I'm not gonna get into a political debate with you. I understand what the Bush II Administration was pushing ... whether in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, or here at home. And that's not the issue. So don't bother posting any more links to nutbag political blogs, okay?

But if you're gonna get all anal-retentive about an answer to your impertinent question, then "YES, I think most of that article's assumptions and statements specifically about Article 81 are either incomplete, incorrect, misleading or outright lies."

All this has been discussed ad nauseum at this forum and other gardening forums for the past year or so. If you want to discuss it further and with eco-nuts who will gladly drown themselves in mutual Monsanto-loathing, go over to IDig and have at it.

But it's you and not me who is totally missing the point. Once again, and for the last time: "My point is that if the facts alone can condemn Monsanto then there is no good reason to give as 'evidence' that which is nothing more than Internet rumors, urban myths, half-truths, and outright fabrications." (You need to actually READ Article 81 rather than parrot, or cut and paste, the BS that others have contrived about it.)

FWIW, many very educated, smart and fair people write wikis :-)

Sigh.

Smarts and feelings are two trains that run on different tracks. They are totally unrelated to each other.

Applying strong personal conviction as a basis for reliability is not acceptable documentation of anything other than bias. It needs to backed up by facts or it's just blather. Get the documentation and post it--prove yourself right and others wrong. Do it. Because as long as you keep posting opinion and hearsay you reduce rather than uphold and strengthen your cause.

Trudi, if you want to dodge the issue with a little psychology, go ahead.

Anyway, thanks for answering my questions (too bad there are no forum icons or I'd do the roll eyes).

Problem I see, I gave information. You guys just turned your nose up at it.
It could be that I came here asking legitimate questions because I was seeking the truth (which is in fact the truth). But, all I got was snide, flippant little comments.

hoosiercherokee did address the issue, but gave no evidence as to why the article was, incomplete, incorrect, misleading or outright lies.
A link to support this would have been nice.

You assumed I already had an opinion on the issue, in fact I didn't. I knew nothing about this aside from a few article I read on the web. However, your ad hominems, lack of evidence and bulldog defense, makes me think now.

Thanks anyway.
You have shown me that wikis and web articles cannot be trusted. I will remember this conversation the next time one of you posts a link to one.

You'll here no more from me on this. Sorry I wasted your time.

Dave

So, Dave, in other words even after reading the wiki article you yourself provided a link to, you still don't understand that Iraqi farmers can grow open pollinated cultivars? And you still don't realize that Monsanto or its subsidiaries aren't the only source of seeds for Iraqi farmers? Who's dodging the issue?

Now, as to the wiki article you linked to ... it's poorly written. There are quotation marks out of place and so it's confusing as to whether the author is quoting someone else's garbage or making it up himself or herself.

Furthermore, simply listing a number of Bush appointees and associates and then saying they held positions in companies that later were bought by Monsanto, or sat on boards at a time when those boards may or may not have ... well, I think a reasonable person can see my point. The wiki article is full of holes and doesn't substantiate your initial inference that Iraqi farmers can only grow Monsanto seeds and cannot grow open pollinated seeds.

Fact is, Article 81 protects proprietary seed RIGHTS whether the seed is open pollinated or hybrid, and whether the seed is Monsanto, Burpee, Harris-Moran, USDA, or whatever company or entity may hold the PVP. And furthermore, Article 81 doesn't prohibit the propagation of plants or perpetuation of germplasm by individual farmers so long as the cultivar isn't PVP. And basically, that's no different than in many other countries with the same similar seed laws.

And finally, I didn't assume you had a point of view. I assumed you were parroting someone else's. If that's not the case, then substantiate your statements and stop whining.

http://www.grain.org/articles/?id=6

"CLARIFICATION - February 2005 The report jointly issued by Focus on the Global South and GRAIN in October 2004 on Iraq's new patent law has received a lot of attention worldwide. It has also generated a misunderstanding that we wish to clarify. The law does not prohibit Iraqi farmers from using or saving "traditional" seeds. It prohibits them from reusing seeds of "new" plant varieties registered under the law. In practical terms, this means they cannot save those seeds for re-use either. The report has been revised to express this more clearly."

"misunderstanding would be an understatement it appears.

but but but

Dave linked to SourceWatch, put out by the Center for Media and Democracy.

What about the many very educated, smart and fair people that write wikis?

I just love the internet, it's the great unifier.

No one actually read the law, yet cut loose on the internet after only reading a poorly written synopsis.

Which isn't nearly as funny as someone actually printing a seed catalog based on that same misunderstanding. 8-P

Who would want to support a company that does this? I will spend my money else where.

Monsanto has been identified by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency as being a "potentially responsible party" for 56 contaminated sites (Superfund sites) in the United States.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto#Environmental_and_health_record

very sad

"Monsanto has been identified by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency as being a "potentially responsible party" for 56 contaminated sites (Superfund sites) in the United States. Who would want to support a company that does this? I will spend my money else where." [kirk1977]

Well, Kirk, in order to make you boycott easier, here is a list of some other superfund sites that are out of control and contaminating nearby residents, etc. List of Superfund Sites with Insufficient Control In Place

Oh gosh, if you intend to withhold your money from ALL VIOLATORS, I guess you better stop paying taxes!

lol I wish Why would I buy seeds from them when all i have to do is shop at fedco or Baker creek. i just wish all GMO were labeled so I wouldn't be buying any of their products.

Come on Hoosier, that's an ad hominem.
If someone chooses to boycott a company for specific reasons, it's their own flipping business.

Also, we can't always control what the Gov't does with our taxes, but we CAN control what WE do with the rest of it.

Like it or not, they DO produce toxic chemicals that contaminate our resources. If someone chooses to not support that, it's really THEIR business.
And it's none of our business if you love Monsanto.
I really don't care.
Sorry to be blunt.

I ***humbly and pleadingly*** ask everyone to not turn this thread into a tirade against GMO's and Monsanto or Syngenta either, the latter also an important player in the GMO field.

If you want to talk about those things then perhaps the Organic Gardening Forum here is best.

And I ask b'c if this thread goes the way that others have it can get nasty and that does no one any good at all.

This Forum is about tomatoes, not politics.

*******

The above is what I wrote in the beginning of this thread.

I knew this would happen as regards Monsanto and it saddens me greatly.

No, I'm not a Monsanto "lover" as someone just posted to someone else, any more than I'm anti or pro any large company involved with agriculture or medicine, in the largest sense.

This thread should not be about being pro or anti Monsanto in general, The question was asked in this tomato Forum about Monsanto and tomatoes, I assume since it was posted here, and I answered that at the beginning of the thread.

I absolutely hate to see such accusations being tossed back and forth, I really do.

Those who wish to discuss Monsanto and Syngenta and GMO's and the like I would prefer to see discuss it in the Organic Gardening Forum here at GW, where it really belongs.

As was mentioned above, there are no GMO tomatoes, and most GMO crops are involved with grains and corns and soybeans and cottons and the like.

And yes I know a lot about GMO's not only b/c I'm a long time Life Time SSE member and each of the yearly publications except for the Yearbook has had numerous articles and announcements about GMO's since I joined SSE back in 1989. And I also know from my scientific background how GMO's are constructed and I have my own opinions as to what their advantages and disadvantages are, whether in the field of medicine or agriculture. But if I wanted to discuss the general aspects, outside of the specific question posed initially, about Monsanto and tomatoes, I would do it in the Organic Gardening Forum here or any other place where such discussions occur, and there are many of them.

Carolyn, pleading once again as she did at the beginning of this Thread, to please just let it go and stop the bickering and accusations for in the end they do no good at all on an individual basis.

OK... so I was sick for two days, and not on the computer. I come back on and this thread has 35 follow-ups...! I will have to take some time to read through it all.

And what I said earlier about not using GMO or hybrid seeds - I know that hybrids are not the same as GMO, I pretty much said it wrong. What I meant was that I don't like hybrids or GMOs, not that hybrids are GMO (because I know they're not).

I have read that Roudnup-resistant GMO soy is more allergenic, probably the cause for soy allergies. Something to do with one of the proteins containing a known allergen or something like that.

To second Carolyn, and put it a little more emphatically--

Will you all please STOP creating long nasty debating tirades which are NOT TOMATO RELATED, or rather are only related to tomatoes because they concern plants?
The last one stayed at the top of the forum for days, went on and on, and was for the most part carried on by a few posters who rarely, if ever, contribute to this board about "Growing Tomatoes". There are boards where you are free to rip each other apart in post after post, but this is not one of them!

Carla in Sac

I for one don't intend to do that. I am here to learn more about tomato growing, get advice, and share my own experiences and advice.

Funny thing... some people believe in freedom of speech as long as you agree with them.

So a thread is working its way down the page, and it gets bumped back up to the top to complain that it was at the top of the page. I have never understood this reasoning in all my years on the web. :)

If you don't want to read it, skip it and go on to the next thread. Do you read all the stickies posted at other boards every single time because they are the first posts? I will never understand this...

Jali, it's just that Left Coast rationale. No biggie.

Good point Jali...if I could edit the title to this thread, I would add "STICKY:" to the beginning so people would ignore it. :D

"...it's just that Left Coast rationale. No biggie."?

Hey, I know where you live, don't make come over there and start moving ditches around.

There is no connection between Monsanto and tomatoes.

Monsanto produces Roundup Ready cotton, soybean, canola seeds. Also, they produce a GM corn that is registered as a "pesticide" (wowzers!) Now, since last year, they have a GM sugar beet that Dixie Sugar is using.

My personal problem with GM seeds is that #1 they can cross-pollinate and contaminate "standard" crops. #2 companies such as Monsanto use "antibiotic markers" so they can test to see if seed is GM. Well, we're eating those seeds -- therefore, we're consuming antibiotics in every bite of food (since every cell of the plant contains the antibiotic marker). Not good. As well, the pollen from these plants would also contain the antibiotic and I personally wonder if that is what is the problem with the bees and colony collaspe disorder. BTW, tests are showing that honey is now GM contaminated....

And lastly, just north of where I live, Monsanto had a chemical plant that produced PCB's. PCB wastes and mercery were dumped and disposed of illegally making Annisten, AL probably the most toxic place in the U.S. The most horrible thing is the number of children who died. These are very very poor people. Records have shown that Monsanto knew and hid the problem.

But, I agree with Carolyn. This is a subject better suited for the forum on organics...

And here's a link from Organic Consumers Association with more information if you are interested:

http://www.organicconsumers.org/monlink.cfm

^ Wow

If people think that Monsanto is not an issue related to tomatoes and wish to put their heads in the sand, it will become an issue the day stray Monsanto DNA makes its way into seeds you save on your property. The pollinators are your problem in Monsanto's opinion.

Monsanto vs Schmeiser

Bump. I hope all those who don't want to see this thread continue will just skip it, as a recent contributor suggested. Last chance.....
I just saw the movie "Food, Inc." There's a section in the movie on Monsanto and their "Round-up Ready" soybean seeds. No, not tomato seeds. Their policies and conduct toward soybean farmers exposed in the movie is sufficient to put me in the "boycott Monsanto" movement; others will do as they see fit.
I recommend the movie. Manassas, Virginia

So, if I want something that works like Roundup but isn't made and distributed by a Monsanto subsidiary, what're my options? Same question with regard to seeds for tomato varieties bred and vended by Monsanto subsidiaries.

I don't use the Weather.com Farmers Forecast. Because they are in partnership with...guess who? ....

I'm glad Monsanto hasn't gotten into tomatoes, and I hope they never do. I don't support their GM soy and corn and whatever else they produce that's genetically modified.

The movie Food, Inc sounds interesting. I never heard of it, but it might be worth looking into. I'll have to check it out sometime.

Sorry this is a bit late for my comments but, I just went through the above posts and I was thinking hoosiercherokee you have a right to your opinion, and so do others, but these forums are for discussions and not attacking people. If you wish to make a point, you could do so politely and nicely, without the name calling and insults. (Which Carolyn repeatedly asked people to take elsewhere) I visit this forum very rarely, but I think I'll do so less after this. I was on the same side as you, but after seeing you're attitude, I think I'll side with the other "eco-nuts" out there.

Specifically, this sort of attitude is what I have a problem with. It doesnt help this or any other forum.

"So don't bother posting any more links to nutbag political blogs, okay?
But if you're gonna get all anal-retentive about an answer to your impertinent question... If you want to discuss it further and with eco-nuts who will gladly drown themselves in mutual Monsanto-loathing, go over to IDig and have at it."

Being nasty to people who share different views than you isn't appropriate either. Especially when they weren't arguing with you, only sharing a statement:

"Well, Kirk, in order to make you boycott easier, here is a list of some other superfund sites that are out of control and contaminating nearby residents, etc. List of Superfund Sites with Insufficient Control In Place
Oh gosh, if you intend to withhold your money from ALL VIOLATORS, I guess you better stop paying taxes!"

Take your nastiness/bitterness elsewhere please.

Also, keep in mind there are children who get on here and the adults on these forums have to be responsible and set good examples. You never know who is reading what you post.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry to post the above comments again, but I wanted to point out specifically the language which IMHO is not appropriate for GW forums.
Holly

Holly,
He no longer posts here. I believe he was reported for writing a few nastier things than he did above.
When people do write things that are inappropriate, we as forum members must send a letter to GW. There is no everyday moderator. When on any forum at the bottom of the page there is a clickable link that says letters and comments. Click on that and choose abuse of forums. It is best to copy a link to the thread with the offending post.
Remy

Greetings, Remy. Nice to see you continue to post such meaningful, thoughtful, helpful and accurate contributions.

And Holly, hats off to you my dear lady for so accurately and insightfully pointing out the gross errors of my ways. I am truly indebted to you for clearly showing me that "nutbag blogs" and "eco-nuts ... gladly drowning themselves in mutual Monsanto-loathing," while debatably an accurate depiction of such agenda-driven goings-on, still might offend the tender sensitivities of the more polite individuals who frequent online message boards but who still may be less hardened to or cynical about real life discussion of controversial issues. How anti-social of me!

Now I realize that while I am entitled, as you say, to my own opinions, I'm just not entitled to express them here in the potential presence of innocent and impressionable readers whose unspoiled minds might be permanently damaged by such brutal debate! If only you had come forth with these revelations months ago, I would have had a well needed epiphany and realized sooner that my poor choice of wording was so offensively inappropriate in spite of the fact that Garden Web administrators have never once censored, edited or deleted a word I have posted.

Thanks, dear Holly.

Your new friend and humble admirer,

Bill

Not trying to get on your bad side Hoosiercherokee, but I too agree that you were a bit out of line with your posting.

Despite countless rumors, legends, etc about Monsanto, there are still very good reasons for so many people to so strongly oppose the company. For example, stuff like Roundup has only a positive impact on business, but not on the environment in which the businesses are running. Herbicides and other harsh chemicals get into groundwater and could offset delicate ecosystems by killing off certain native organisms.

I'm not a complete "eco-nut" and I'm not a tree hugger, but I do believe we should at least take some care of the environment we live in. And I've heard some bad stuff about GM products and health risks that are posed by eating food made with them. But of course I would have to research extensively for hours so I could come up with perfect, concrete, stellar proof of the facts since you seem to disbelieve anything said against Monsanto, RoundUp, GM or related products without absolute, 100% proof.

Anyway I will rant no longer...just saying that you're not getting your point anywhere in this thread full of people who have a mind for the environment and the well-being of everyone who lives in it. We don't support Monsanto for multiple reasons, and you're just wasting your time trying to justify them.

Now I'd rather have this thread sink back down off the main page. Part of me is sorry I started the thread in the first place, but another part is glad I did because I've learned some from it.

Catman, I'm sorry if you and others miss the points I tried to make earlier in this discussion. This is an old discussion that took place at the same time as similar discussions at other gardening boards where the same false statements were being presented as fact regarding Monsanto's alleged forcing GMO seeds down Iraqi farmers' throats. It was also falsely alleged by one owner of another garden board and seed company that the U.S. government had conspired with the Iraqi goverment to ban the saving and planting of open pollinated crop seeds.

Now this thread has been resurrected and taken out of context to the point that I'm some sort of villianous co-conspirator with Monsanto et al. None of you know anything about my actual occupation and involvement with environmental issues. And to portray me as an anti-environmentalist, pro-Monsanto goombah is far from true. I'm actually involved in the planning and implementation of projects that improve water quality and natural habitat. That has been my job for many years.

In this particular thread I was simply asking one or two participants to present the facts rather than carry water for agenda-driven bloggers who are misrepresenting certain environmental and agricultural issues. Yes I got a bit frustrated and outspoken when the same worn out baloney kept being hacked out there as fact.

Nuff said.

Bill,
I never did anything to you. You suddenly stopped posting, and I assumed someone turned you in for going over the line(not this thread.)
You have every right to your opinion. No one has the right to make anyone feel uncomfortable to post their opinion. To be condescending to others who do not hold the same opinion is the problem. If you think someone's beliefs are wrong, you are not going to get them to think about changing their opinion if you are brash with them.
As the old saying goes, "You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
Remy

I see what you're saying Hoosiercherokee, and of course you have a right to express your opinions...your older posts in this thread were out of line, but no more hard feelings now.

Like I said in my previous post, let's drop the thread and get back to tomato-related posts. I could go for another tomato sandwich anyway...

You were not "debating." Do you even know what that word means? Its in the DICTIONARY as a "regulated DISCUSSION between two matched sides" Now where in that definition (from websters ninth new collegiate dictionary) do you see the words argue or insult? Excuse me, my bad, I must have read it wrong. No, the real hats off goes to you, the only time I've ever heard "nutbag" used was by teenagers in my high school who were never taught any better. I suppose I shouldn't have higher expectations from adults. I dont have a problem with you posting your opinion, as I said before, I WAS ON THE SAME SIDE AS YOU! What about that didnt you understand? My point was about HOW you posted your opinion. HOW HOW HOW, would you like me to repeat it again? Or do you understand?

Holly, my dear lady. Why are you hollerin'? Are you mad? Or are you just frustrated because you feel I'm not gettin' it?

Okay, now go back and read our initial discussion where I at first politely and calmly responded to PushinDirt's interpretation of Article 81 and the supposed powers it granted to Monsanto stooges, etc. that he gleened from a political blog that indeed was pushing an eco-rad point of view based on misinformation. This was the same misinformation that at the same time was being pushed over at IDig by the forum owner both online and in his printed seed catalog. The debate had already become heated at other forums that many of us visit under various nicknames. Dig?

Okay, so after repeatedly trying to calmly suggest PushinDirt actually read Article 81 and then tell us where it prevents Iraqi farmers saving and replanting their own traditional seed, I got a bit frustrated. Kinda like you just did. Dig? Fact is, I agree 100% with PushinDirt that Monsanto's legal persecution of farmers for inadvertingly, or even knowingly, replanting seed unintentially (naturally) altered by GMO pollen drift is beyond the pale and shouldn't be allowed in a free society ... which apparently is a culture lost to history at this point in time.

Now, be an adult and indulge in a nice adult coctail beverage and enjoy the rest of the nice summer evening. Might I suggest viewing HGTV or maybe a soothing Lifetime Network flic?

Bill

I wasnt hollering. I was putting emphasis on things. There isnt a bold or italics option on here. Whats IDig? Your sarcastic response made me think you werent getting it, and still wanted to be nasty. I am enjoying my summer evening thanks. No adult beverages tonight though, I am on meds for knee surgery. What kind of tomatoes do you grow?

I grow a variety of open pollinated tomatoes, a few commercially produced hybrid tomatoes and some homemade hybrid crosses that I've done and then grow out the subsequent generations.

I prefer pink tomatoes and especially what some people call purple tomatoes like Cherokee Purple, Indian Stripe, and various crosses between those and Brandywine, etc.

I can be nasty. I can be nice. Really makes no difference to me. Basically, I go with the flow.

I'm on heart meds myself following surgery in 2004, and limit myself to one craft beer max per evening. Sometimes no beer at all for days. Again, I go with the flow.

Like you, I am in engineering and have supervised survey crews, road crews, construction crews and environmental projects (mostly storm water control) for over 30 years. So, as you can imagine, I have used chemicals produced by the Evil Empire to control invasive vegetation, etc. Again, I go with the flow. Literally.

Also, I am a Master Gardener under the Purdue Extension program. So, again I'm associated with the Evil Empire in that regard depending upon how some purist eco-nimbys view the world. I also serve on planning boards and support economic development (i.e.: urban sprawl as some might define it). Again, I go with the flow.

But I do not use any synthetic chemicals on my tomatoes or other veggies. Only on ornamentals. And I don't use herbicides or fungicides in my vegetable gardens. So in that respect, I totally reject Monsanto et al. You might be surprised how many gardeners among our Master Gardener group are 100% organic much to the dismay of our Purdue Extension supervisors. Oh well ... go with the flow.

Now, time to go turn the wings and toss'm in some hot sauce and enjoy that single Goose Island ale with my Caesar salad, cukes and onions and those grilled smokin' wings.

Adeu, Mon Ami.

Speaking of Indian Stripe, I have my first ripe one that I will slice up tomorrow. From the outside it smells good; I can't wait to get into it tomorrow. I've got another ripening IS that's got to push over a pound. I wish I had a scale to weigh it.

Have you crossed IS with Brandywine? If you have, how were the results. Sounds to me like it would be a good cross.

Well I gotta stop thinking about that ripe IS that's downstairs right now. Gotta get it of my mind...it takes some will power not to cut into a tomato like that (you all probably know what I'm talking about). After trying Black Krim for the first time, I am hooked on purple/black varieties and from what I've heard, I think I've got a lot to look forwards to with these Indian Stripes....

And now I'm gonna get some sleep...

I'm grilling chicken spiedies, haven't had wings in a looong time.

How did you know I'm in engineering? I'm hoping to get my PLS I think, but I just might go into the Right Of Way department for the state. Not sure what I want to do yet. I'm an intern for the state right now, so I guess I have time to think still.
I go between wanting to be a stay at home mom and being a PLS, but I need to save up for a couple of years before the mom thing might work. I would like to stay at home, raise veggies and animals to put up all our own food and home school my kids when I have some. I was born to be a family person, I know its not for all women. Some feminists I know would be appalled at the very idea.

Sometimes I think the benefits of chemicals where invasive species are concerned may outweigh any negative consequences, I guess it depends on the situation though. I dont use any chemicals on my veggies either, I'd vaguely heard of monsanto before this post. I really didn't understand half of what was said about them either.

I actually am growing my first ever surviving tomato plants this year. I was very proud. I have principe borghese, german johnson, giant belgium pink, and viva italia. I planted twenty three this year. I had twelve last year, but they were half dead and yellow with small yucky tomatoes. I guess I underestimated the value of compost because I put some on after that and I think that's why this years are doing so great.

Sorry to hear you had surgery on your heart. Hope you're doing better.
I had surgery last year on my same knee in the same spot, but it ripped again this year. Less than one year later. I go in for the second surgery next month, until then I'm on vicoden and naproxen. I hope I don't ever have to have heart surgery though, it looks awfully painful.
Take care,
Holly

I refused to open this thread for the logest time fearing exactly thought I would find. It really bugs me when people use the phrase "Didn't I hear something ..." or "I thought I saw some special about that..." and try to pass it off as proof. Having been involved in research for many years it is amazing to me just how uninformed most people are. Some people glom onto whatever seems to support their view and try to make it seem credible. The superficiality just screams. "Ever wondered where the bees went"? Am I supposed to assume then that Monsanto killed all the bees because they developed a type of plant that does not need as much pollination?

Dr. Carolyn, you are so right on the money. There are some things we just should not discuss, politics, religion, and in-laws. People should have the guts to actually say what they mean instead of hiding it in words like "Have you ever wondered where all the honey bees went" when talking about this type of subject. Intelectual integrity (or the lack of it) is something that is easily assessed. I am glad there are people here that display an understanding of truth and are intelecually credible. Thank you Dr. Carolyn.

Tom

I'm still looking for an effective pesticide against in-laws.

ROFL I hope I get nice In laws someday.
~Fingers crossed~
: )
Holly

I have just learned of Monsanto from this thread. After looking some more on the web, the biggest thing that hasn't been mentioned is the Bt gene entered into corn. This is a bacterium that is used as a pesticide and is present throughout the plant. It isn't supposed to be harmful to mammals although their is controversy on that subject, but it is harmful to bees as the Bt is in the pollen. It is unknown how harmful it is to bees but there is a possibility that over time the small amount of Bt in the pollen is responsible for CCD.