Tapla and Justaguy, I wanted to point out your dislike of organics in containers was reaffirmed by Ray's experiment. I know the problems associated with using organics in containers and that researchers have tried to obtain results equal to conventional methods with much tweaking of the organic systems and have had some success. But Ray's experiments last year certainly back up your contentions in other threads that using organics in containers would give disappointing results. At least it certainly did using Fox Farm vs the old formula of Tomato Tone. The old T.T. formula was a mix of synthetics and organics and look at the results in Ray's picture--the tomato with lots of fruits on the right (TT) VS the pitiful organic one (Foxfarm) next to it that you can barely make out. Even Ray's miracle gro soil mix WITH fertilizer did not help Fox Farm. Now having said this I have had good results growing certain vegetables organically in containers. Perhaps they would been bigger with synthetics but I was happy with the results. I certainly would not be happy with the results that Ray got with Fox Farm and was surprised the difference was that dramatic. By the way I use both synthetic and organics fertilizers but I am interested in improving organic results particular when told it just can't be done. Any chance that some of the non-plant ingredients are soil-type microbes that would help the organic fertilizer breakdown and be utilized in containers? Ray, I also noted the change in the formulas on my old bags of TT and the new. I was disappointed that they did this as I liked the higher potassium and the synthetic components ameliorate some of the organic drawbacks. I already had Plant-tone if I wanted to go purely organic. As far as your new experiment, it will be interesting to see how the new TT with all the biological microbes stacks up to the old. Also the ferts, in the Miracle Gro are long gone now and won't impact the experiment.

With regard to Megpi's post, I totally agree on all points made. And it's still obvious to me that microbes, being living organisms, can move over and across the barrier along the top of the growing medium rather than having to "swim" under the barrier. With regard to Bencjedi's post, I grew about 100 Brandywine transplants for the Master Gardeners Plant Sale and kept a dozen or more at home to give to friends. Right now there are 10 of those Brandywine in 6" round pots filled with identical Baccto Professional Potting Mix with the pots stowed in a pile of bark fines like you might seed trees in nursery tubs with bark chips walled up around the tubs to keep the roots cool. All 10 plants have been treated identically since the time the seeds were planted ... same starter mix, same potting up mix, same fertilizer, same watering, same sunlight ... indentical. And there are marked differences between the plants at this time. Some are leafier, some are taller, some shorter, some have flowers, some don't have flowers, etc. When I look at that particular SWC with the two Brandywines, I see the one closer to the fence is taller and has less dense foliage maybe due to its location with regard to sunlight. I see the sunlight shining between the fence slats. Which way is east or south? I also notice the one nearer the fence is flowering. And the Brandywine farther from the fence seems to have more "mitten fingered" leaves. Hey, who knows about the vagaries of open pollinated heirlooms???

By fungi, I was referring to the mycorrhizae. The product has both ecto and endo mycorrhizae, in addition to the beneficial bacteria. Here's the label from espoma.com: Non-Plant Food Ingredients: Contains 5,678,688 colony forming units (CFUÂs) per lb. (378,579 CFUÂs per lb. each of the following 15 species): Bacillus subtilis Paenibacillus polymyxa Bacillus licheniformis Pseudomonas alcaligenes Bacillus megaterium Pseudomonas chlororaphis Bacillus marinus Pseudomonas putida Bacillus coagulans Acidovorax facilis Bacillus thuringiensis Arthrobacter agilis Bacillus pumilis Rhodococcus rhodochorus Bacillus lentimorbus Ectomycorrhizal Fungi: 44,200,000 propagules/lb. of the following 8 species: Pisiolithus tinctorius (40,000,000 propagules/lb.) Scleroderma Citrinni (1,000,000 propagules/lb.) Scleroderma Cepa (1,000,000 propagules/lb.) Laccaria Bicolor (200,000 propagules/lb.) Rhizopogon Roseolus (500,000 propagules/lb.) Rhizopogon Subscaerelescens (500,000 propagules/lb.) Rhizopogon villosuli (500,000 propagules/lb.) Endomycorrhizal Fungi: 1,200 propagules per lb. of the following 2 species: Glomus aggregatum (600 propagules/lb.) Glomus intraradices (600 propagules/lb.) Sizes: Available in 4 lb. and 25 lb. bags Bio-tone® Starter Plus is an all natural plant food enhanced with biostimulants, beneficial bacteria and mycorrhizae. This proprietary formula works naturally within the soil to help plants establish fast, withstand environmental stress, promote deeper roots better blooms ,and improve soil structure. Microbe enhanced all natural plant food Includes both Endo & Ecto Mycorrhizae Grows larger root mass to help plants establish fast Reduces transplant loss I am a big fan of the Espoma products, mainly because they add micronutrients. Products containing mycorrhizae fungi are flooding the market this year, but I don't know what effect they really have. I know it is naturally occuring, so since I use wood mulches and compost, I may already have it in my soil. I am still pretty happy with the product. Here is a link that might be useful: Espoma Bio-Tone Starter Plus

Yes, that is cheap. I am not sure how much you use, how often, whether it is quick or slow release, etc; and you have to be careful with numbers like 4-5-3 when comparing products. The fertilizer numbers can be used to calculate how much of a fertilizer needs to be applied to equal 1 pound of the nutrient you are trying to add to the soil. So if the numbers on the fertilizer are 10-5-5, you can divide 100 by 10 and this will tell you that you need 10 pounds of the fertilizer to add 1 pound of the nutrient (nitrogen) to the soil. If the product is 20-20-20, you only need 5 lbs of the product --- thus, while the 20-20-20 might cost more than the 10-5-5 brand, the actual expense based on application might be less! For example, another excellent product that may seem expensive by comparison is Intrepid Blue Ribbon Biodynamic Fertilizer which is 6-6-7, but is around $18.95 for a 5 lb container. However, you only use 1 tablespoon per plant, it is organic and it also contains strains of soil microorganisms. One "tub" of this has lasted me all season and my garden plants look good. Remember, you only use one tablespoon per plant per application! I use it at transplanting, flowering, and heavy fruiting periods. I also take soil sample with a test kit to see what the plant needs. Here is a link that might be useful: Intredid Blue Ribbon Biodynamic Fertilizer