Hi flowergirl1211, Welcome Back! You might want to update your GW email address, since it is also showing in your post and if it is no longer a valid address. Your address at the bottom of your post could easily be overlooked...just go the the Member Pages link in the green banner at the bottom of any GW page, for updating your profile. hth. chemocurl...aka Sue

My experience with Russian Sage was a failure. I started a bunch of plants from seed. I had good germination and planted the seedlings in the garden to start. My garden tends to be very gravelly. They wintered okay. I donâÂÂt remember how long I left them there, but when I attempted to move them about the yard I eventually lost them all. They didnâÂÂt die outright, but took forever to come up in the spring and never reached their potential. I gave up on them. Then I tried the same thing with agastache. Seedlings actually wintered in their little cell packs. I thought that I was going to regret planting this hardy plant in my perennial bed. It was lovely but seemed so hardy. I thought it would seed all over, since it was so easy from seed. None are left! But wait, I think IâÂÂve found something that looks like it in a forgotten corner! I really think it may not be so much a hardiness issue though. If you have the right conditions for the plant, I mean the correct PH and soil type, etc. maybe youâÂÂll have success. However, IâÂÂve had the same experience of having a plant grow successfully for years then upon losing it for some reason or other, having every replacement die immediately or the first winter. Two that come to mind are monarda and sedum âÂÂAutumn JoyâÂÂ. Some of your disappointments are growing successfully in my yard, Donna. I have several clumps of veronicastrum or culverâÂÂs root doing quite well. I started them from seed. Not sure I like them yet. This should be the year to tell. Sea holly thrives in my gravelly garden. I know someone who has turtlehead growing naturally out at the lake here. But the others you mentioned, coreopsis, helenium, tiarella, IâÂÂve tried and failed with. I can add echinacia to that list. I've always wondered about that theory about single specimens being hardier than the rest. I have some plants rated zone 4 growing happily in my yard. Is it a fluke or were they just rated wrong to start with. I guess thatâÂÂs part of what makes gardening such a great hobby though. ThereâÂÂs always surprises to balance out the disappointments.

try Richter's up in Canada. In the most recent cataloge I got from them they were selling Salvia sclarea they refer to it by the common name "Clary." they've been around awhile an have a great selection of other herbs as well. I've included thier link. You can get 10 grams of seed for $6 and the have 100 gram packs for $31. should be plenty for research purposes Rick Here is a link that might be useful: Richters Home Page

L. camara is the actual name. Only the commercially sold hybrids have made up names like 'Miss Huff', 'Dallas Red' or 'Carnival'. Wild Lantana horrida has orange/red flowers. Wild Lantana camara has pink/yellow flowers. They smell the same. Both are cold hardy. L. camara is hardy to zone 6. I am unsure about L. horrida but its probably that hardy as well. Both have thorns and produce lots of viable seeds. The common name for wild L. camara is 'Ham & Eggs'. Wild L. horrida is often called 'Bacon & Eggs' based on the different flower colors. There are six species indigenous to parts of the southern United States. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Most named hybrids are a mix of two South American species: L. camara & L. montevidensis. Lantana montevidensis is a trailing ground cover type with lavender flowers. Its tropical and not cold hardy at all which is why the hybrids are sold as annuals and don't survive winter. The hardier cultivars often have L. horrida (also called Lantana urticoides) in their lineage. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I now think the orange one in the photo I posted above is L. horrida. L. horrida is a Texas native but L. camara isn't. Its considered an invasive pest all over the south. The 'Ham & Eggs' that I have is wild L. camara, people have grown them here in Oklahoma for as long as I can remember because they are so hardy and will grow in our dry heat. They were commonly grown on farms as ornamental plants. They aren't invasive here because of cold winters but further south both types stay evergreen and bloom all year. I read that L. horrida varies in leaf size, form etc in that site I posted above. I ordered seeds from Native American Seed and those plants have much bigger leaves and the plant has a wilder looking habit than the orange one I like so much that I posted in the pictures above which was started from a cutting from a plant growing up the street, I was disappointed in the plants I grew from seed I ordered. The orange I started from the cutting up the street obviously produces viable seed, I have a few baby volunteers I noticed. Its leading me to believe its L. horrida (which definitely has thorns) except I think this one happens to be a slightly different type than the ones I grew from the seeds I ordered. None of the cultivars I have purchased have thorns. BTW, I realize now that the one which wintered over in my hell strip is a Miss Huff. I'd forgotten what I planted, it happens around here. http://npsot.org/wp/story/2011/1801/