Hey, Art. I have studied this plant in the wild for decades, and grown it on and off for many years. Generally, they are to be found under woody shrubs on sunny, warm slopes. Sometimes at he bottom of the slope close to a seasonal creek. Always spectacular drainage and broken shade.

Here on the Coast where it is a bit cooler than they seemingly like we grow them in warm, partially shaded spots with moderate to occasional water. I believe they tolerate water better during the cooler parts of the year, as one would expect from a California native.

Lastly, there is a great deal of diversity in this species. Some good growers, some compost fodder. The best grower of the bunch (IMHO) is 'Avis Keedy', which is yellow flowered.

Hope this helps.

Kermit

I'm in inland so.Calif. My most successful S. spathacea grows under a deciduous Chinese pistachio, where it gets winter sun and summer shade. It's next to a lawn, where it grows with Salvia "Dara's Choice" and a sprawling manzanita. We never water it, but the lawn gets water, and the S. spathacea has been very happy. Another large S. spathacea gets exposed to a couple of hours of daily hot sun in summer (not intended when I planted it), and it partly dies back during that time, though it grows fine during cooler parts of the year. I'd suggest you keep yours out of mid-day sun. I'd be concerned about summer rain and humidty, too. I haven't seen this species in nature. We're just south and well inland of its southern range limit.

Thank You both! I have a location with shade But mostly tropical Salvias so I will need to develop a bed that is
shaded but no water. We usually don't get rain from June
-September unless a tropical storm or hurricane remnants
show up in the right place. Sounds very similar to
S.forskaehli growing conditions here. There are plenty of deciduous trees Pecan(Carya Illinoinensis) may work out good as it leafs out late.
How does it take winter wetness? We went to 17 degrees for 3 day's but our winters are usualy milder than that.
Art

Winter wetness is no issue with good drainage. In the wild, 100% of the rain is October - May, with up to 30 inches during those cool months.

S. clevlandii is much more demanding, IMHO.

Kermit

Being inland of the natural range of S. spathacea, I've learned to be careful about summer heat and sun. But Rancho Santa Ana Botanic Garden, also inland, has some large plantings of them. I live just beyond the northern extent of S. clevelandii. You might find an old GW thread of mine called (probably) "Salvia clevelandii in California," or something like that, where I have pictures of the species in nature. I've had pretty good success with it. I've grown S. clevelandii from cuttings, seed and nursery-bought plants (Las Pilitas). I did have one plant recently and inexplicably keel over, just as it was about to flower. Many of the Clevelands sold by nurseries are actually hybrids or genetically contaminated. Nurseries don't know, because they've never seen it in nature, and they get starter cuttings from other nurseries who've also never seen it.

Ccroulet, funny you should mention that about your s. clevelandii. I just lost one of mine, a "Baja" cultivar, and not only was it limp, it was covered with aphids. Yuck! I wonder what is happening.

Hybridsage, my location is Socal coastal, and mine get a mix of sun and shade. The soil is pretty sandy, so drainage is not an issue. The do get ratty looking post bloom, but they will come back from the ground up the next year. I actually tried to get rid of them at one point, but they came back, so they've earned the right to stay.

Here it is, from the guest room window yesterday afternoon.

Here is a link that might be useful:

I have one S. clevelandii that I thought was stone dead last July, but it came back nicely during the winter. In nature, Clevelands grow in very well-drained soil -- coarse gravel and even what you might call shattered rock. It's decomposed granite, mostly. The "soil" component is minimal. So I'd suggest that good drainage is paramount when trying to grow this species. S. mellifera and S. apiana are more tolerant of heavier soils. I can't think of a place where Clevelands grow naturally along major a highway, because highways are not usually built along the rocky, gravelly ridges where Clevelands grow. I had to learn this when looking for the species. At first I thought I could find them by just driving around, as I would the other species. BTW, Salvia clevelandii is named for Daniel Cleveland, a businessman and amateur naturalist in San Diego during the late 1800s & early 1900s. Not after Pres. Grover Cleveland or Cleveland National Forest (named after Grover), despite the fact that much of S. clevelandii's natural range is in Cleveland NF.

Well I need to get a good amount decomposed granite for making
my Shade beds. I am at 650-700 feet w/clay soil and our temperatures in the summer have never been in the sixty's.
They are usually in the range of mid 70's - lower 80's.
Would any hybrids be better suited to my Climate?
Art

If you can get into the Western Regional Climate Center, look at climate data for inland San Diego Co., CA, places like Ramona, Escondido, Vista. At their upper elevation limit, Clevelands get occasional winter snow (e.g. Julian, Campo, Descanso Ranger Stn). You'll see that summer lows are usually in the 50s. Consult Las Pilitas' website for info about hybrids. They speak highly of "Pozo Blue" for hardiness. The hybrids grow larger and flower earlier than real Clevelands. I have to apologize. I hijacked a thread about something I didn't know much about (S. spathacea) and converted it to something where I knew more (S. clevelandii).

ccroulet
No Problem I am just trying to get a better understanding of
why we can grow certain California Salvias and not others.
It makes for some interesting garden challenges. I am looking
for better heat tolerance than cold tolerance (Being we don't get that cold here).
Art

Art:

You might want to have a look at apiana, leucophylla, melifera and the previously mentioned clone of spathacea, 'Avis Keedy'. These are for me by far the easiest to grow of the California native Salvias.

But of course, you probably already have!

Kermit

Kermit C:
I have seen apiana in someones Salvia garden here. I will be
trying spathacea "Avis Keedy" this fall. I will look at leucophylla and melifera. Special notes on these if we do have a storm/s hit during the summer? I will have to make some special beds so they don't have to deal with the Clay soil we have here. Decomposed Granite ok for these too? Our typical soils vary from clay to a mix of Clay and limestone to solid limestone. Mine is clay mized w/occasional Glen Rose (Brownish) limestone chunks mixed in.
Thanks
Art

One of my books about Calif. native plants for gardening dismisses S. mellifera as not very interesting, but it and S. apiana are abundant in wild areas near me, so I have a personal fondness for them. Art: heat per se, setting aside humidity issues, shouldn't be a problem for S. clevelandii. They get 90s & occasional 100s where they are native. Depends on distance from the coast (hotter days, cooler nights inland). S. clevelandii grows close enough to the coast to get so.Calif. "June gloom" weather, and they do fine. But they often experience weeks and weeks of full sun, particularly in summer and fall. You may not know that they have two different suits of leaves: wet-season and dry-season. Mine are sprouting their dry-season leaves right now, and they expect to get little moisture between now and, say, November. Contrary to popular belief, most areas of so.Calif. get one or two thunderstorms during summer, and showers can be briefly heavy (Californians are astonished at the "weird weather," but it happens every year). But overall input from this source is minimal. One of the sites for Phoenix, AZ, recommends mid-day shade for S. clevelandii, and they will handle some shade. I'd think that, to survive significant summer rain, drainage is the key. Wet feet will kill them and most of the other Calif. salvias, except maybe S. spathacea (Kermit, kelpermaid?). Rich Dufresne knows a lot about growing these in sticky climates. I know you have a drought now (what summer rain?), but we're talking about the long term.

I have tramped through countless thickets of White, Black and Purple Sage in the coastal mountains of Central California. Generally they are on hills, but in some pretty worthless clay at times. Other times straight decomposed granite. Sometimes in screed. I grew some to make smudge sticks this last year, and they overwintered well in a field of clay loam that I have used many times for onions. So I believe they are more tolerant than we may think, which is why I've suggested these as "easy" Calif natives. Oh, all are very strongly scented, bee food of the best sort and have nice habits.

Kermit

Here is the scoop from SE Arizona. I am growing S.spathacea under what was a beautiful 30 ft tall Palo Verde. This winter 56 hours of 15 to 0 degree temps killed my PV. Growing beneath the PV was a S.spathacea with a new pup. Main plant died offshoot lives and produced another. Today it looks good, but I am worried about excess sun.

S. apiana 3 plants in different areas of the garden. The most exposed plant may survive, the other 2 look great.

S.clevelandii 3 plants, only the oldest/largest survived. The plant may be a volunteer, I am afraid to poke around down there as it is close to the old stalk. Could be it just grew up from the roots, we will see.

S. leucantha looks as good as ever. S. elegans slow but healthy, as is S. guaranitica.

S.greggii tough as ever. S. microphylla slow to bloom except Hot Lips, which stayed green through it all.

I lost a lot of local natives, Calliandra eriophylla Fairy duster, Zauschneria arizonica, Stachys coccinea in the freeze. These are/were found in the canyon behind my home. Where the Horseshoe 2 fire came within 1/4 of my home, 220000 acres were burned and just contained yesterday. I am a 60 YO volunteer Firefighter and was out trying to protect my mountain for over 25 days. My view looks OK because last year the Horseshoe fire, did a low slow burn in 2010.

Not clear exactly where you are, desertsage, but we know se AZ pretty well, esp. Tucson & Sierra Vista area. Sounds like you're pretty high. I'd expect extended 0 deg F to be fatal for many Calif. natives. S. apiana & S. clevelandii grow to elevations that regularly get snow (apiana to 5,000 ft on Palomar Mtn), but lows will usually only drop into the teens.

I think I may try the California sages again, now that I have discovered expanded slate pellets. These are sized bits run through a kiln to puff them up and make them porous. At one part expanded slate to 2 to 3 parts of regular potting soil, my first results look very promising.

I am using them with sages that have tubers or rhizomes, like patens, lineata, stolonifera, clinopodioides, involucrata. and reptans; also with those that have rotted out over winter, even though they have no underground storage and were mininally watered, such as sinaloensis, sqalens, and discolor. My usual prescription for keeping these is to make sure I have a mature, at least minimally potbound plant for the winter, since a large plant in a small plant will use up its water more quickly. This is pretty successful, but only works about 70% of the time.

Another issue is air drainage. which is why California sages like slopes. In humid climates like mine, defoliation around the base to let in air is probably a good idea. The trouble with hot, humid weather is that the humidity prevents rapid cooldown at night. Right now our minimum night temps are in the low 70s. Don't arid climates like deserts go douwn into the low 50's or cooler?

South African sages form a dense thicket of soboles (suckers) that retain foliage to hold in moisture at the base, so they are the first ti go for me, especially in a hot, rainy summer.

Spathacea is a bit different, and may require association with the soil under Live Oak. It is usually short-lived for me. Gotta try it again in my expanded slate mix!

Low desert (Colorado Desert, Sonoran Desert, Chihuahuan Desert has summer lows in 70s & 80s. Borrego Springs, CA, had a low this AM of 79, high today of 115. But the high is above normal. July avg high for Borrego Sprs is 107. High desert lows (Mojave) in 50s (Bishop) & 60s-70s (Lancaster, Barstow, Baker, Twentynine Palms), depending on elevation. A notable feature of the Calif. coast is lows in the low 50s during summer (many places), & cool onshore breeze in afternoon. This area -- central coast, Santa Barbara -- is where S. spathacea is native.

Rich:
Glad to hear the expanded Shale is working well for you on the California Salvias. I understand that the decomposed granite can do the same thing as the shale for tight clay soils. I incorperate granite into my soil mix when replanting into pots.The only Salvia that does not like it is guaranitica B&B . I will try the shale too. I will let you know spathacea takes the weather. John R. had a S. apiana on a granite slope and it was fine there too.
Art

Yes, this freeze was very uncommon for the area. You couldn't buy a piece of PVC for a month after the freeze in the Tucson or Sierra Vista area. I am 3 miles from New Mexico, and 30 miles from Old Mexico. At 4500 ft on the bajada of the east side of the Chiricahua Mtns. Our normal low is the mid teens, with a light freeze 30 nights in the Winter. I also lost 3 Magnificent Hummingbirds during the freeze, even though I was rotating feeders out.

And now the fires, I was in Sierra Vista Friday, 92 out by Nicksville, near Ramsey Canyon, the fire got away and crossed the road. All the birders in my town Portal and all of the Sky Islands are pretty sad.

desertsage: I know about where you are. We checked with Sheri Williamson (Bisbee) last week about the Monument Fire. It was otherwise hard to get specific info. We've visited Ramsey Canyon & Beatty's Miller Canyon Guest Ranch & Ash Canyon B&B. Main legal tormentor of Ash Canyon B&B lost their house in the fire, but the B&B (according to Sheri) is OK.

ccroulet, off topic, I know Sherri she also bands hummers at the Southwest Research Center(Portal)and at the George Walker House in Paradise. I live in Sulphur Canyon, which is just south of Cave Creek Canyon. South Fork begins in the Sulphur Canyon/Portal Peak drainage.

Tom lost the orchard, but the rest of Beatty's seems intact. Tom was worried about flood/runoff damage to the pond where the Chiricahua Leopard frogs live. They moved a bunch of the frogs, out to safe location until the monsoon season is over.

I got my best info from the AZ bird list serve, on the who's and whats on the fire.

listserv.arizona.edu/archives/birdwg05.html