I'm not 100% certain that's a safe recipe. in fact it looks fairly questionable to me. you have substantially more water than you have acidifying ingredients, in addition to having high pH ingredients. if it were me I'd add more vinegar. a lot more.

I was the one who said you can get away with not covering the bottles all the way, but that's based on boiling the sauce, filling the bottles at a high temp (180+), and inverting after filling. if you do all those things, then you can BWB up to the top of the caps, but not covering them with 2" of water.

and I never use reducer caps, I feel it makes the seal more questionable. if you're in a factory that has an aseptic filling system, then that doesn't matter as much. but when you're doing it at home, it's a bigger deal.

be careful which points of a safe process you copy, there are important details that people can miss and end up doing something dangerous.

I feel like I came in and rained on your parade, and that wasn't my intention.

No worries. I was looking for input from the experts. You would qualify based on your experience.

So if I add a lot more vinegar, then I will end up with a really acidic tasting recipe. Can I also add more Agave or something else to offset the acidic taste. Would white vinegar be better for taste than Apple Cider Vinegar?

I plan on keeping it in the fridge and not treating it as if it is safe via BWB, but I just wanted to experiment with the technique for future reference.

The reason I added more water is that it was pretty thick initially...more like a ketchup consistency than a hot sauce consistency.

Maybe Judo can give me an answer on this, since he has a commercial pH meter:
Q:
what would be pH of the following solution in any given unit of volume:

Lime juice = 1 unit
Lemon Juice = 1 unit
Vinegar (5% acidity) = 1 unit
water = 5 unit

Assuming both lime and lemon juice have roughly the same pH as vinegar (` 2.40) , the combined solution should be similar to :
5 w/ 3 vin. Just to make it simple assume 2 w / 1 vin.

Per my calculation such solution will have a pH of about = 2.65

We will get into the ingredients effect after we find out what the actual pH of solution is.

FT:
pH of ripe Mango : 3.8 to 4.8 (considered acidic)
pH of Papaya : 5.2 to 6.0 ( considered low acid)
pH of Hot Peppers ~ 6. (low acid)

seysonn

Seysonn...this would be a good test that would help us amatuers. However, I wonder if using pure math gives us the answer or would the ingredients react with each other to give a result outside of the pure math?

According to the US FDA Food and Food Product ph list, following are the relevant PH values (which you have noted as well):

Lime Juice 2 - 2.35
Lemon Juice 2 - 2.60
Vinegar 2.4 - 3.4
Cider Vinegar 3.1
Water 7.0
Ripe Mango 3.4 - 4.8
Papaya 5.2 - 6.0

If I use the high values above, the math of my 5-1-1-1 (not to be confused with Als 511) mix would be:

1 Part Lime Juice 2.35
1 Part Lemon Juice 2.60
1 Part Cider Vinegar 3.10 (I used 5% apple cider vinegar)
5 Parts Water 7.0 x 5 = 35.0

Total of 43.05 divided by 8 parts = 5.38.

With 4 parts water it would be 5.15 (36.05 / 7)
With 3 parts water it would be 4.84 (29.05 / 6)
With 2 parts water it would be 4.20 (22.05 / 5)

Now this of course assume we can calculate results mathematically, which I'm not sure actually works.

But it appears reducing water and eliminating Papaya and just using Mango in my recipe would have been much better.

Brian, thnks
But I asked judo to do an actual measurement . Then we will take it from there:

pH variation is logarithmic function not a linear function. It is given that a 5% acidity vinegar has a pH = 2.40.
For example if we mix it 50/50 with water it IS NOT going to be 4.8 but roughly 2.6.
here is the formula for a weak acid: Acetic acid in our case.

(-pH) = log" sqrt[ (1.8 * (10 ^(-5)) * m)]>

where m is the molarity of acetic acid in a given mixture.

This is the science behind pH.
Unless you have some alkaline among the ingredients, pH is not going to change drastically. All the ingredients in this recipe are on the acid side ( pH Seysonn

This post was edited by seysonn on Tue, Nov 18, 14 at 11:11

I will do a test next time I go to the kitchen (pH tester stays there).

the math can be misleading, and you can end up with unexpected results. in the end the only sure fire way to make a safe product is to do a test. that's why I recommend anyone who wants to make up their own recipes get a pH tester, to take the guesswork out of it. I'm a math nerd, but the beautiful world of math doesn't always translate to the real world, where there are lots of other factors in play.

I can tell you from recent experience, that a sauce with 25% superhot peppers by mass and 75% vinegar has a pH of about 3.2. doing the math, that's an unexpected result, but it happens.
that's why I'm required to test and record the pH of every batch before cooking, and again at least 24 hours after bottling (I have to open a sealed bottle for this test).

While I have always been good with math/numbers, I was never really good at chemistry/physics/biology.

Judo: from your experiences, what type of tester would you recommend for someone only needing to test at home? Seems like reviews are mixed on testers such as the one noted below.

http://shop.hannainst.com/hi98103-checker-ph-tester.html?id=023001002&ProdCode=HI%252098103

Willing to pay up to $100 if necessary for something just to use at home.

Using your 24 hour measurement scenario above, what happens if PH changes during that time but is still under acceptable level? Is PH stable at 24 hours or does increasing PH during that time set off alarm bells?

some reactions happen slower than others, and some vinegar boils off in the cooking process. so you have to give it time to reach equilibrium. 24h is the number I was told by my inspector. in my limited experience, sometimes the pH goes up slightly, often it stays very near the same, but it still needs to be tested. the biggest change I've ever seen was from 3.0 to 3.1, usually it'll go up by .02-.03

in the beginning I was using the cheapo yellow one that you can find on amazon, and it gave me results very near (within .1) to what the expensive reader gives, under specific circumstances. with a cheap pH tester it is absolutely vital that you're testing a liquid that is very near to the temperature of the buffer solution you used to calibrate it. (note: temp does not affect pH, but it does affect pH meters) the higher end testers like mine compensate for temperature to some extent, but you should still try to be very near to the temp at which you calibrated your device.

what I'm getting at is that for home use, you don't need to spend much for your pH tester, as long as you are very much aware that it's just a ballpark reading, and you are careful to remember that temperature will skew the results. and if you're near the borderline, add more vinegar. for my production line I shoot for 3.1 or below, for stuff for home use I shoot for at least below 4.

also know that the cheaper ones tend to just stop working. my cheap one decided to go haywire and the pH just kept climbing until I turned it off, 3 days later it worked just fine again. they're a bit screwy. just accept that fact from the beginning, and know that you need to take their readings with a grain of salt. but I do believe many of those negative reviews come from people who didn't bother calibrating their device, or even reading the directions.

I spent about $400 on my meter that I use for making a commercial product, and it was the best $400 I ever spent, because I know I can trust my readings.

Lethal levels of botulism toxin can grow within the first 24 hours (if pH was above 4.6 to begin with) so pH should be tested right away, before bottling, and then within 24 hours if it's close to make sure it hasn't risen above that (you really want to get in under 4.2 to begin with anyway). If you really want to check that something is shelf-stable you would check periodically after that but if the pH is low to begin with (shoot for maximum of 4.2 using a meter that's accurate to 0.02, calibrated for 4.0 and 7.0 and either temperature-compensating or room temperature solution) then there's no need to keep opening jars and checking.

Remember that something like a pureed hot sauce can be tested by just putting the probe in (don't WIPE the probe, pat it dry!), chunky things like salsa must be pureed first. Even chunkier things like whole pickled peppers should be tested using a sharp probe inserted into the solid pickle (or drain the solution and puree the solids - we don't care so much what the solution is in a pickle, we want to know what the center of the solid is, for example pickled carrots, being very dense, should use the sharp probe and not puree).

If a particular recipe tests at 4.0 or below, you can use litmus paper to check each subsequent batch. But if you change *anything* in the recipe you want to go back to using the meter. There are some food testing labs (at least here in CT) that will do a pH test for under $10 per sample.

In my estimate a half decent pH meter should have calibration feature. Cheap ones sold at HD , Lowes , .. are worthless . I have already thrown away couple of them.

About Math:
In my opinion math does not lie. The problem is that we cannot accurately factor in all the variable. For example peppers have a range pH. What grows in your climate/growing condition can be different. So here come the utility of a GOOD reliable pH meter. So the math can give you a pretty good ball park number. If you stay away from the borderline, you be pretty sure. Eg. pH of 4.6 is the MAX. But if your numbers are around 4 or lower then there should be little to worry. The thing is that pH variations is not linear and it take a lot dilution to raise the pH.
I think that organizations like NCHFP and USDA include a VERY HIGH safety factor. They want to cover their back side. :-). They say 4.5 is okay but if you measure their recipes I can guarantee that it will be around 3. For example, most tomatoes have a pH of 4.6 and lower but they say you have to add acid to your sauce.

I am thinking about getting a pH meter in the near future.

Seysonn

most pH testers have a calibration function. in fact I'm pretty sure they all do. the ones you bought at lowes are probably soil pH meters (because that's what they sell).

the point I'm trying to make is that the world of mathematics is perfect and beautiful, but the real world is messy. and you can't say "I'm sorry you got sick, but the math worked out just fine."

a great example was my attempt to apply math to the smokemaster's witches brew. the math worked out beautifully, but my experiences were a complete failure, because there was something I failed to account for.

the math only mirrors reality when we take into account ALL factors, which is exceedingly difficult to do, and as a result it is not wise to use math alone to justify any decisions regarding food safety.