Could that be because Venezuelans are trying to create Iberian or U.S. gardens to set them off from their tropical surroundings?

Spectre-
I think we often fall into stereotypes when we set out to recreate a garden based on a culture other than our own. We accentuate certain parts that bend the form out of shape. Reminds me of attending a theme party - Italian toga parties or Mexican night or Chinese New Year. If someone from one of those cultures attended they might find it pretty humorous and more "Italian" or "Mexican" or "Chinese" than they, just as you wrote about your Venezuelean friend.

Gardens attempting to re-create another culture's garden style can be similiar to these parties. We can never authentically re-create a garden apart from its culture, by very definition. We can only approximate. So why not accept that and feel free to bend the rules, add a bit of eclecticism? Mix the Balinese with Carribbean.

The Japanese gardens would perhaps be closest to true cultural re-creations as they have many prescriptives to follow (help me out here, Cady, I'm out of my element!)

Anyway, those are some of my after dinner, off the top of my head thoughts!

Ginger

Hello John:

Actually it was more perhaps in the plant selection and placement. For example, I use masses of Cordyline fruticosa (ti plants) because they are very common in a Polynesian tropical garden. In the Caribbean basin, they are not exposed as much to those plants as they are to plants that are from the West Indies and South America, such as Acalypha Copperleaf or Codieaum (Crotons).

He also commented (he's a landscape designer) on the limited availability of varied plants in Venezuela due to obvious more pressing political and social problems. Still, he was amazed that I had more dense stands of bananas and heliconias in my SoCal garden than there...and some heliconias are native to Venezuela.

He further observed that though he and his colleagues see tropical gardens featured in books, etc as typically packed with plants, he avoids planting that way that due to rampant growth. However, when I showed him pics I took of the Balinese Gardens I visited, which are planted wall to wall, he couldn't believe it.

I think it's more of "what they're used to" as opposed to a desire to copy Spanish or US gardens.

spectre

Yes, but why are they used to it?

Now, you lost me...could you please be more specific with your question or tell me how you're framing it? I thought lack of plant material and garden design not being a priority in Venezuela answers that, but I'm probably misunderstanding what your getting at.

Perhaps it could also be, as Ginger mentions, a stereotypical notion of what a "tropical" garden is supposed to look like. After being bombarded with movies set in the tropics, travel ads promoting the tropics, and the like, people have fashioned a picture of the ideal tropical garden that's anywhere near reality.

That's why I'm wondering whether if you're restoring or designing a garden to fit a theme, style, or period, do you go for accuracy or "bend the rules" like Ginger says.

spectre

"I think it's more of "what they're used to" as opposed to a desire to copy Spanish or US gardens."

Why are they not making the maximum use of exciting local plants like heliconias, bananas, palms, tropical vines et al., to make their gardens be as lush as the natural world surrounding them. There has to be a particular mindset that shapes their thinking. I'm wondering where it is coming from and why it manifests itself in the ways it does. If it does not spring from the Spanish colonial past and the U.S. semi-colonial present, where does it come from? What triggers it? Are they trying to create gardens that give an illusion of cooler, less humid climes?

Hello John:

You have me. As I'm not an expert in Venezuelan history, the people's psyche, or their gardens, I'm afraid I can't answer your question.

As we are getting away from the original intent of my post, I won't speculate any further. I'll see if I can get Venezuela (the handle of my friend) to come in and give us his take.

In the meantime, are there any other thoughts out there to my original post? Not just with tropical gardens, but other types?

spectre

Warning, Ginger!

"The Japanese gardens would perhaps be closest to true cultural re-creations as they have many prescriptives to follow".

If you checked into the Japanese forum with that line now, you might as well pour a jar of honey on your head and whack a hornets nest with a stick. Seems that it's no longer in style in some circles to follow the Sakuteiki or the Illustrations. Seems it's easier to follow later, more relaxed rules or to make some of it up to really speed the process (you may guess that I fall into the more historical camp).

So to address Spectre's question, it really is a matter of opinion. Want to do Balinese or Thai style? Get Luca Tettoni's books and copy diligently. If you want to do South America, are we going to do Spanish Imperial or Roberto Burle Marx? Historically speaking should be just that and what Marx does wouldn't please the conquistadors one bit. So pick your period. A lot of the contention in the Japanese garden community here in the States seems to lie around this very question, so I don't think there is a cut and dried answer (at least we haven't found one yet).

Ginger, see why Cady was leaving this one alone?

Isn't all of history as we know it now a matter of interpretation and/or revision?

I can offer two quotations from "The History of Garden Design" by Derek Clifford that may answer the queries posed above. It is actually 'A' history rather than 'The' history but nonetheless interesting.
"All gardens are a product of leisure. It is no good looking for gardens in a society which needs all its energy to survive."
"a garden in its highest sense, is not a museum collection, nor a sort of pocket farm; it is a world made to our own measure."

So although some enthusiastic designers have, in the past extolled us to "consult the genius of the place" you may, after doing this, decide to go your own way. My advice would be; if you want to make your garden into an idealized place as a opposed to a realistic copy of some other place then go for it just remember that "eclectic" is a close cousin of "chaotic.".

Well, since California isn't in Bali, you'll never have an historically accurate Balinese garden. So accept, ahem, the latitude that this gives you. I'm curious about what the stereotypical 'North American garden' would be.

Lawn and meatball shrubs?

Miz R, you have raised the salient point (echoed by Tony's notation that "The" history is indeed "A" history.

I have been arguing the point elsewhere that to deviate from ancient text is to dilute an existing art form, mutating it forever. There is a garden from the Nara period that was excavated and "restored" in Japan, but there is still controversy over how realistic the restoration is. Can we ever regain what is once lost?

I do not know enough about Balinese gardens to know if there are paramaters that "must" be followed. But in my mind, the more we do to come close to the "authentic" style of the garden we are trying to create, the closer we come to that reality. My love of the Japanese garden has led me to learn about flower aranging, Noh theater, Japanese history and a good deal about Zen. Yet there is an entire school of thought that says that all these things are superfluous to the garden, and I should just study pruning and design. Again, we come back to opinion, and from my experience on the Japanese forum, it will always return to opinion. So Spectre, trust your honesst convictions and run with it...(and no, Tony, that doesn't mean I'm through with the Zen vs. Meiji conflict...;) )

Scott:

Excellent points and yes, I do have most of the Luca Tettoni/William Warren books (actually The Tropical Garden was my first "drooling" book) and therein lies the rub. I refer to all of their books (Bali, Thai, etc.) plus others on Singapore, Hawai'i, Florida, California Subtropical...even on on Mexican Tropical Gardens Paradiso Mexicano. The result is I have a mish-mash of styles that can best be described as... errr... perhaps "ecclectic tropical?!?"

I'm happy with the way it's turned out, but sometimes I wonder. The point Cynthia makes about how authentic can any Balinese garden be in California certainly gives me an extra 33 degrees of latitude (sorry, I couldn't resist) to have fun with the process.

BTW, interesting to see that these sort of discussions are going on in the Japanese Garden design community as well. Thanks for the continued input.

spectre

My experience with my 1860's farmhouse really echoes one of the quotes Tony posted from "The History of Garden Design" by Derek Clifford:
"All gardens are a product of leisure. It is no good looking for gardens in a society which needs all its energy to survive."
Where I live was a working dairy farm until the 40's and had the ag inspection paperwork still pegged to the wall of the old milk storage room to prove it. There were huge vegetable gardens, including one that was used at least 50 years ago since we found an old brass harness bell when we plowed it for the first time. At the same time, there were only seven types of decorative plants: an old rugosa-type rose, lilacs, mock orange, a plain green hosta, orange day lilies, one huge Rhododendron and a honeysuckle vine, all long-lived plants that thrive despite neglect. It's clear that working the farm was a far higher priority than pretty gardens. As I've added to the gardens I've found places for the old plants, simply because I like the continuity they provide, and our vegetable garden is still the large rectangle in the field next to the house where we found the bell for the same reason. At first I wanted to only use similar plants to what would have originally been in the gardens of my house, but I've come to realize from old photos and the state of the soil around the house that for the most part there weren't really decorative gardens around this house beyond those few plants. So I've integrated the old plants, but beyond that I've used a mixture of shrubs, trees, bulbs and perennials, along with a few favorite annuals to make a garden that I can maintain and looks nice (to my eyes) with the age and style of the house.

Ginger,
Japanese gardens and their authenticity outside Japan is such a controversial issue, that I refuse to touch it for fear of dragging over the rolling debate that has been going on in the Japanese Gardens forum. :)

Spectre,
IMO, the difficulty of restoring a unique garden (which your super-tropical one sounds like) is that there are no rules or pre-set parameters, as Ginger pointed out a traditional garden (e.g. Japanese; French Louis XIV Formal; etc.) would have.

So, you're the only one who can decide what "bending the rules" means to you.

Many of us bend rules not to be iconoclasts, but because we have to adapt our gardens to differences in soil, climate, siting and other natural factors that might make "going by the book" impossible.

For example, in a Japanese garden, a gardener might "bend the rules" by planting plants that would not have been used in a traditional Japanese garden because they did not exist in Japan. But even then, the plants selected would be those that have similar look, texture and habit to the ones used in an "authentic" Japanese garden. They are chosen to create a particular look and feel that approximates those of a traditional garden in Japan.

I think there are lots of cultures where gardens are not formulaic or analyzed that way, but rather, materialize as they do because of the materials that are available, the climate, terrain and - from the human side - the cultural influences (including religious or spiritual beliefs). So, a Thai garden may have a spirit house (a small structure meant to divert bad spirits from a family's dwelling) in the garden; a garden in a French monastery might have a tightly-clipped box shrub in the shape of three knots to represent the Trinity; a Muslim-Arab garden may have cool stone tiles and a central fountain inside a courtyard of a walled home, in reflection of old, pragmatic architectural traditions of an arid-climate culture.

Those aren't rules for those cultures' gardens; they're more materializations of style from the surrounding climate and cultural influences.

In view of that, I think you can create your own traditions based on what is available to you in your environment and your interpretation of what you see in other cultures' gardens. What results is a garden that you can call anything you want. ;)

Cady:

Great points...similar to the Thai example you bring up, Balinese gardens always have a temple in a part of the garden. Due to lot size, codes, and cultural considerations, I have no plans for that. But then, like my home page says (you'll see a Bali spirit lantern), I'm trying to find a nice mix that takes into consideration many of the points that have been well covered here, including one that you added, the environment.

As a quick aside, thank you on the "super-tropical" observation, but since coconut palms are very marginal on the SoCal coast, I'm not sure mine qualifies.

spectre

Well done, Cady. A nice pulling together of varied points. thanks for commenting on the Japanese garden aspect. Also, I liked the landscape photos of the works by landscape architects-as-artists that you posted on the Art or Craft? thread. Makes a believer of me . . .
Ginger

Spectre, no doubt in my mind that your garden is "super tropical" even without the coconut palms. They are not THE plant material that makes one think of tropics. You did it by massing many kinds of palms, musaceae, bromeliads and flowering tropical shrubs. When I saw it it said TROPICAL. That it is a combination of plants from all over the tropical world does not make it more Singapore or Thai or Balanese or Brazilian but just tropical. It looks like what we northerners imagine the tropics to be.
This brings me to my remark that your garden is more tropical than what I see daily here in Venezuela. I do not live in the wet tropics like Indonesia an area which is lush and green because it gets two rainy seasons in the year and two short drier periods. We live in an area that has one long rainy season and one long dry season where trees loose their leaves for 4 months and all looks dry. The African plains have the same type of climate. So although we can grow heliconias and Zingeberaceae and Araceae they are not what you see in the natural landscape for the most part. Sure you can go up into the rain forest and see that lush tropics and you could even recreate it if you have the water to maintain it in the dry season. However most people just have small spaces and no garden skills so you just have a few of the most neglect tolerant shrubs to look at.

Also the nursery trade isn't developed like it is in the first world so there is not the variety of plants to work with. Natives for the most part do not interest people here because they want the colorful neglect tolerant plants that are from other parts of the world like crotons and ixoras. We landscape designers are limited as to what we can do because we cannot pick up the phone and order what we want, in the size we want , in the quantity we want, and with the quality we want.

I recently read a book called The Balanese Gardens or something like that. The fotos were almost all of gardens that were made in the 1970's. These are what we are refering to when we plant tropicals but these are hardly historical. If you look at the gardens around the historical temlples in Bangkok and see the shrubs pruned into balls with rings of lower growing border plants around them like birthday cakes you would not probably want to copy them in your garden either at least not if it is tropical. Roberto Burle Marx's gardens are abstract paintings in three dimensions. They are color and excitement but in general they maintain their abstract nature, they are architectural. These are all someones expression of their interpretation of the tropics, I think all are valid, each adapted to its site. Spectre, you just created your own tropical dream come true and it is valid whatever you put in it in the future to improve that dream. I feel safe saying this because I KNOW you would never put in pink plastic flamingos!!! chris

Thanks, Ginger. I don't think that artist-landscape architect link convinced IronBelly, though. ;)

Spectre,
IMO, the photo of your garden depicts a charmingly tropical environ. Makes me want to move to San Diego when I retire so I can push the tropical envelope. Here in frozen New England, I have a Balinesian-made "tea house" kit in my cellar, where it has been waiting for two years to be assembled. Someday! ;)

Hai, Cady-san, I agree (hence my less militant stand here; no sense airing our dirty linen in front of the neighbors ;) )

Lovely garden, Spectre. A few breadfruits and a date palm or two and you'll never need to leave...

Hey Scott-san:

Domo arigato (sp?) for the props on the garden. Date palms I have, breadfruits are a different story.

Oh, I wish I could grow Artocarpus altilis, but breadfruits are one of those ultra-tropicals that take a dive when temps hit 50F/10C. They don't even survive reliably in Miami...you have go to the far-southern burbs of that city towards the coast before they thrive.

spectre

P.S.: I'm not an expert in Japanese Gardens, though most tropical gardens incorporate some elements and there are a few well known examples in Hawai'i that mix the two styles. I do have to take a virtual stroll to the JG forum to see what this dirty laundry is about...inquiring minds want to know!