I agree that there is great advice here, and was surprised to see it, amongst the rest of the BS. It shows that some are STILL willing to share information, even though it has been repeated again and again. I agree that this poster is not well researched, posted carelessly, and that he kinda threw himself to the wolves. However, most posts like this just go unanswered. And that seems like the most appropriate and polite thing to do.

Just because everyone has "free speech" and takes risks when making a careless post, doesnt give any adult the right to JUSTIFY immature, unprofessional behavior.

You have made it clear that us hobbiests and wannabes are no where near the same rank as you. However, were you not once a wannabe, too? Did you not have to start from point A to point B, just as we have? Or did it all just come easitly for you?
If you are so proud of your status now, then surely you must value the passion and sacrifice that those of us who are STILL LEARNING have. There are MANY of us here who would give our whole lives to be able to do what you do 12 plus hours per day, 365 days a year. It just hasnt happened for us yet. We are still learning, still researching, and not looking for shortcuts, just looking for answers. Do you honestly feel that by posting here we are looking for shortcuts?! We are looking for ANSWERS. Cant you understand that gardenweb is an incredible resource for us "wannabes"?? Perhaps there is some envy there, maybe it wasnt so easy for you to get answers years ago, and you feel we should have to "work harder" at it. Whatever the reason, you have clearly made me feel that it is a waste of your time to answer questions.

I dont feel that any one should have to have enough "gumption" to tolerate rude, immature behavior in order to make it in this or any industry.

You have made it clear that it was not an easy road for you. Does that mean that you intend to make it tough for everyone else who is just beginning? WE ALREADY KNOW IT IS NOT GOING TO BE EASY, we already know it was tough for you, and still is. We are willing to accept this and take those risks, JUST AS YOU DID. Does it have to be constantly thrown in our faces?? It is like you want to talk everyone out of it.

It was not my place to stand up for this poster. I do not have great communication skills, or great comebacks. There are a lot of names involved in this that I have respected for their advice. I guess I was just excercising my right to "free speech" to say how I felt about it, just as you do.

Mylu, I somehow looked over your post when I replied. I must ask you, did you say you are here under a different identity?? I must ask, why would you do that?

I know that I dont ask questions like this, I am a very detailed person. However, maybe I am just bothered by this so much because I feel that I may have asked questions before that could be seen as........unresearched, confusing, or just plain stupid. I guess I cant understand why this guy in particular was singled out like this. I guess I just felt the need to stick up for him.

Yes, there are many posts asking this same question, but what would someone think, checking out this forum for the first time, and reading that thread?? I think it gives gardenweb a bad name.

I want to apologize for "starting crap" (see, I do have gumption), but not for sticking up for this guy. Just wish I was better at it.

...... " However, most posts like this just go unanswered. And that seems like the most appropriate and polite thing to do.

coming to a GW professional forum near you,, slience.

now that's engaging , albeit polite.

Hehehe.. Now Mich that's funny...

Ellen:
Why would I change my name?
There are those "hear" that monitor these forums...Kind of like a "Sharp Spointed Spike".
Sorry that's a witty as I can be tonight.

I still want to know if "ThePatriot" ever came out of the basement. I would think if any thing s/he could boast what a ruckus s/he created! But s/he would have to remember s/he did that too. Hmmm...

I got it! Finally!
I was stoned.
I posted on GW.
I was still stoned and remembered I posted on GW.
I got confused from what I read from what I posted.
I got stoned.
I forgot I posted on GW!
I forgot "Whats GW again"?

Sorry for my flipped attitude. Is it next season yet?

Ellen, since your response seems to be directed to my post, let me direct this back to you.

I applaude anyone who has the determination and drive to make it in this industry. And I am certainly not attempting to discourage anyone who has this determination. But I'm not sure I can make it any clearer that this is not the place to come to get ANSWERS - suggestions, advice, opinions, encouragement along the path - you bet, but the answers, the steps, the process is something you must discover and learn for yourself. How one goes about doing this is your choice - formal education, internships, on-the-job training, having a mentor - whatever works for you and your situation. But to come to a "professional gardening" forum and expect the professionals to provide you with a 1,2,3 process of how to succeed is not just practical or reasonable.

If you feel that by not providing all the easy anwers is rude or immature behavior, then I would question your wherewithall to succeed in this business. The process of obtaining the answers you need is an essential learning experience. I think you need to closely examine the amount of effort you have put into this process yourself and ask why you expect the answers to be handed to you. If you are confusing "answers" with "advice", then I apologize - the advice, whether you choose to take it or not, is offered pretty freely by most of us, but the answers you have to find for yourself.

I must be out of my ever lovin' mind for saying anything in this thread. But with my spelling, it's probably safer than the writers thread!
Y'all crack me up. And I really admire those of you who did find a way to say a little something nice.
I am certainly not a pro. I just dabble when I'm not growing small specialty crops for the organic market.
I got started because I was ordering 40 manderin trees and I needed to buy a minimum of 50 to buy direct from the wholesale nursery that raises the variety I want. (He grows over 100,000 citrus trees a year. Does that make him a professional?) So, I let friends know I had 10 extra trees. Next thing I knew I had orders for about another 50 trees that year.
Now I do an annual sale of citrus, really more for fun than anything. All orders are cash up front. Also now I propagate about 100 pommegrante cuttings (make great hedge for those who hate oleanders like I do), about 10 fig, and about 20 or so odds and ends each year. It's not even close to being something I make any real money at. I take my son to Del Taco when we make a delivery of things we grew ourselves.
Any way, maybe next time I'll skip Del Taco and buy a book. But knowing me, I'd read the first chapter and figure I'd never be able to do it.
It's fun reading the forum. Thanks for tonight's entertainment! :)

Ellen,

You say that you have "nitpicky" questions. Those are the best kind! I think that what annoyed people most about the nature of the "Patriot's" question was the generality that he is asking for. If you have specific questions, like "What was your first greehnouse like? Did you find one that already existed, or did you build it? When you built your first greenhouse, how did you do it? Did you buy a kit? Was it a glass house? Was it a plastic quonset style?"

I bet you would get tons of answers. This kind of question shows some thought and investment on the part of the inquirer. It shows a committment to comprehending the level of detail and depth of knowledge that might be out there. I love questions like that.

But it's very hard to answer questions like the one "Patriot" asked. They're too broad. They show that the inquirer didn't care enough to get specific about the question. Why should anyone here get specific about the answer? But alas, some very generous and wise people did.

That is the reason that you should toughen up and stick your neck out and ask those questions. If you can't take a little heat, trust me, you will not be able to handle the nursery business. This is a great resource. Don't write it off just because you don't think people are being nice. Sometimes the nursery business is anything but nice, and it's important to learn that before you invest your heart and soul and savings into a pursuit even as "simple" as a "backyard nursery".

This is our second year with our daylily farm. Last couple of years we asked a lot of questions and got advice that was mostly helpful. I bought Tony Avent's book plus 3 others and found them helpful as well. But they didn't answer every question I had and some things I read caused me to have more questions. It seems to me that Patriot's main question was "what will people buy". S/He also posted it on the Perennial Forum and was directed to the good folks on this forum. I responded on the Perennial Forum that I personally would love to be able to go to a Farm and choose my own Siberian, Japanese and Bearded Iris, hosta, Asiatic and Orential lilies. The advice I found most helpful from the folks on this forum was that which directed me to other resources such as SCORE, Leonard Perry's Perennial Pages, Small Business Administration, sources for containers that others bought from, etc. Probably those of us wanting to start a backyard nursery business don't have a lot of money to invest so we want to make what money we do have do as far as possible. That's why we ask advice. If you did so-and-so and found it not profitable, we appreciate hearing about that so we won't do so-and-so and waste our little bit of money. Also it's unfair to assume that because Patriot grew cannabis that s/he is a pothead. I've known of some elderly folks that grew it and never used it. They just grew it because it was a good money crop. Unfortunatly (for them) they got arrested and lost their farm.

I realize I was vague about what "answers" I,personally, am looking for. I would not look for answers about business in general, but about improving the products that I sell. About growing the plants, specific requirements, container sizes, etc. I learned the hard way not to discuss money issues, I hit a nerve on that last year on this forum, and, I must say, learned a lot.

I realize every mistake that you are saying this poster made. I realized it when I read it. However, the rukus was created by those who chose to respond to him this way, not by him.

I am stunned that two days later, you still wish to poke fun, and then say "oh I hope the poor old soul wont leave us"..........jeez, it's like you are saying "thanks for the laugh at your expense, come on back so we can help you". And if he doesnt come back, then you are saying "it is his fault for not having gumption". Give me a break.

I just had an "ah ha!" moment! I posted on Mich's "Did you think it would be easy thread" about the previous work we did planting trees for state foresty services, government reforestation projects, paper companies and private individuals. My husband started out as a tree planter and after a few years became a crewleader with 25 to 30 and sometimes 40 planters. Every year, we would get guys or girls who would ask "How can I start my own tree planting company?" (Their reasoning was "If I own the company, I don't have to work so hard and I can make lots of money." Now don't anybody jump on me over this. Rmember, I'm one of the wannabes who is wanting advice:-) His advice to them was always PLANT a couple of seasons and see how the business works, then if you want to do this you can think about running a company." Relating to this business, I can now see how difficult it is for the nursery or gardening professionals to give us all the advice we need. It would be totally impossible for a tree planting crewleader or company owner to tell a rookie planter everything they need to know to run a tree planting company. There is nothing that can take the place of experience, whether you get it from on-the-job or from your own trial and error. So having been on both sides of the fence, so to speak, I think I understand both sides.

Ellen, I agree that specific questions are the best. Sometimes I have a hard time wording my question to get the answer I really need:-) but I keep trying.

Patriot, If you're still around, check out the Perennial Plant Association. They have lists of "best sellers". Look around the neighborhood and see what everybody is growing, then research what grows well in your climate, then choose something different that everybody doesn't have in their yards and gardens.

*yawn*........*stretching*.......oh, ya, excuse me......oh wait....*yawn*...well, I have said my final piece.....*yawn*, time to sip some coffee and HAPPY CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICIZING!!!!!!!!!!!

This is not about new people asking questions. There is nothing wrong with Patrios question. It shows some naievete, but that is not a problem. The problem started when he said, "I don't want to buy someones book." It says I'm not interested in doing any work to acquire this knowledge. That is what set people off.

No one is trying to discourage anyone from asking questions. But if after being given some advice you say that sounds like more work than I want to do, don't be surprised if you get some odd responses.

If you think this forum is somehow different, go to another forum, ask a question and then respond as Patirot did and see what happens.

People should lighten up and not take everything so seriously. Me included.

jb

You're right, jb.

I agree that the question would have probably just been ignored since it was so vague, and that it was "Patriot's" response re the book suggestion that set off the reaction.

Many times, people get help in narrowing down those kinds of general questions so that folks can provide a useful answer. That couldn't happen here, because the inquirer wasn't receptive to that sort of collaboration.

He contributed nothing constructive to the conversation. Still, he got some detailed, thoughtful responses in addition to the others. I think he still came out way ahead in the bargain. For those who think people have been unfair, consider that.

If I wrote a book about this thread, would anyone read it ?

and what would be an appropriate title ?

Don't read this book ?
No wait,,,, someone has already used that title.

I have a real good title but it would get 'spiked'.

So back to my most recent novel, 'Lifestyles of the Poor and Stupid' by Gary Larsen.

You know, this thread has been interesting.....almost purging.

I think it's been kept alive not so much to poke fun at somebody, but it's because issues keep coming out we may as well address.

I hang at a few other forums as well, and it never ceases to amaze me when people go out of their way to provide a thoughtful and accurate answer to a very cut and dried question and the poster never even acknowledges they have read it, save saying thanks for the input of all those who answered. Worse yet are those who post with a pre-conceived idea of the answer and then challange everyone who inputs. It just makes you want to say "Why on earth did you post in the first place?".

I've been in this business for eighteen odd years now, and I never got rich at it. I am still in business sixteen years after I started my own operation and that alone says success if you look at the demographics on any small business. The whole thing in a nutshell is being reality based if you are serious about getting in any business as an owner. Would you open a car dealership if the only association with vehicles were to drive one for a couple years? Same goes for any business. An old workmate of mine called getting your knowledge by working or study "paying your dues".

If someone has a dream to own a plant business, it's no skin off any of our necks. Whether you are doing it two years from now or folded up a few dollars poorer is the ultimate test. It's completely up to you how well you wish to hedge your bets by preparing.

The dollars are going to have to be spent now or a few years up the road to ever get to the point where you make a good enough profit to make it worth your while. Just accept it as a given. My husband floated me the megabucks, banking I would take it and run with it. Had he not, I'd have never........ever...........really made it. I consider myself a very small operation, but I also know that's relative. An unasked for opinion, but I'm giving it anyway. To be self sustaining as a business entity, you have to be large enough to fill an order. By an order I mean a dozen/hundred/thousand of something. Just like a landscaper has to have a minium amount of equipment in addition to their knowledge. To have less is an automatic ticket to a self-limiting enterprise.

But most of all..........most important......is determination to achieve your goals. You can likely do it if you are committed enough. If you want in this business, you picked an easy enough one to get into, but a damned hard one to stay in.

First off, I'd like to say that I'm NO professional in the sense of the word but have enjoyed gardening for years. I love to come here to just mostly read & usually get a lot of insight from those of you who are in the business, BUT I am appalled when someone innocently asks a question & gets the kind of feedback that some of you have left. Yes, I do agree, read, read & read some more read all you can get your hands on! I do & still have a lot to learn & maybe thats exactly where our original poster is coming from. We can learn a lot from one another. If you dont have the time to answer a question in a civil tone PLEASE dont bother to answer at all. WE ARE NOT ALL PROFESSIONALS WITH A KNOW-IT-ALL ATTITUDE! A lot of us nonprofessionals come here for answers to our questions so please try & be a little nicer in the future or dont bother to answer.

Ive been taught all my life:
There's no such thing as a wrong question. So come down off your high horses!

This kind of response is what puts a bad taste in a lot of mouths I have to say it definitely put one in mine! Im sorry The Patriot that you have received such a response here. There are truly a lot of helpful professionals here on GW. I have posted a few questions in the past & received some very helpful advice. Please hang in there I believe that dreams are worth following. ;o) I plan on following mine!

And to set the record straight before its asked... No, I have not read "So You Want to Start a Nursery" by Tony Avent but I plan on getting a copy. ;o)

Sincerely,
Beth in Louisiana

It is simple.

If you more or less state that you want to bypass the learning, the work, the experience, and effort and then ask from those that did not bypass all of that, to hand it over to you, what would you expect?

When someone asks for a little advice around here they usually get it. But, one thing that has emerged with this great thing that we call the web, is easy access to information. Many have become very used to bypassing everything by using the web. They plagerize their way through school, they participate on messageboards they know nothing about by googling up other peoples answers so they can feel important, and they keep getting gratified in cyberland. They expect that they should have any computer program for free from somebody on the web. They get accustomed to the idea that everything is easy on the net.

I think that people like to help people that are working hard to get ahead, who are reading, taking classes, and taking on jobs or employment. No one beats up BonsaiAudge because we all know the guy is putting everything into it. He humbly asks questions and gives his $.02 in the same manner.

The only people that get slammed around are ones that declare or imply that they don't value what they are asking for past the effort of writing their post, or those that post pictures who want no criticism just accolades.

The guy that started this post did the former.

I find it hard to see those who get a little miffed at this kind of OP as being more disrespectful than the OP.

"Hi, I am a fry cook at Burger King. I'm going to open my own restaurant this year. I did not go the Johnson and Wales, chef. But, I'm here at the Ritz (well actually visiting the web site) so you can show me (well actually just tell me) how to prepare your best specialty. No, I don't want to buy your cook book, just tell me the recipe." ... "what do you mean by get a job at the Hilton? You snarky bassfish. You call yourself a pro and all you do is look down on people. I'm not coming to your website anymore. The guys at McDonalds were right. You got sme attitude, chef!"

Do we hate the chef?

Why do people take what is obvious and dismiss it in order not to hurt the underdog's feelings. Are we all so insecure that we see ourselves as these people? I just don't get it.

I don't understand why you all are so cautious, I started a back yard nursery last year and sold everything. Put out twice as much this year and sold everything again. Now I'm doing the math trying to figure out what to do next year.
Let's see---two the first year
four the second year
???? do I go six or eight next year????
Patriot, jump in and play with the big boys

"WE ARE NOT ALL PROFESSIONALS WITH A KNOW-IT-ALL ATTITUDE! A lot of us nonprofessionals come here for answers to our questions so please try & be a little nicer in the future or dont bother to answer."

This confuses me. This is a forum for professionals. There are lots of other forums here. Why do you think it's the job of posters here to hold the hand of someone like Patriot, when he actually shows no interest in having a real discussion?

laag, I feel that your comment was directed at me, since I admitted being intimidated by professionals. So I must ask you........

Has there ever been a time in your life that you can relate to taking something so incredibly serious in your life that you were biting your nails at every move you made? Have you ever had times of "highs and lows" and feeling indecisive and anxiety?? Do you not agree that those emotions/feelings/thoughts/whatever is a natural response to feeling insecure?? And dont you think that someone who has not "taken the plunge" into going after their dream is going to feel some tremendous insecurities in their endeavors??

I dont feel that I was defending this poster because of his original question/comment. I did it because of the incredibly immaturity (and a lot of buttkissing) replies that were generated at his expense. And I think I also did it because I understand intimidation, and what he must feel after having read all of this. However, I have since been slammed because I admitted this. I honestly cannot believe that 100% of every "professional" here did not go through serious insecurities when and before he/she began.

Everyone on this forum who are actually "professionals" has spoken about how difficult it was and still is. We have heard inspirational success stories about throwing the old secure life away in order to persue their dreams. We have heard of the highs and lows, the good, the bad, and the ugly realities. But I just gotta ask, how many of you really and truly had to deal with they type of immature remarks that were made to this poster???? Was this really some necessary "hurdle" that some have to cross over in order to "make it" out there???

Just for the record, I doubt that thePatriot would have made his final comments in the manner he had, had his very first response to his original question not been "sounds like another desperate cry.....". Right off the bat, that set the tone for everything. I doubt he had any inkling that he was dissing a book that almost everyone here finds sacred. Still, did he really deserve what came next??

"Still, did he really deserve what came next??"

Yes. Next question.........

I don't see what the fuss is about. Patriot asked a question, he got lots of answers, some more useful than others. Thats the principle of an internet forum non?

As for the original question, what to grow. Anything currently in flower sells itself. After that its a question of personal taste and specialisation.

If you are allowed to do retail by your municipality, do Hosta.

Many instances of Hosta doing well with home nurseries.

But beware of buying in tissue cultured Hosta.

Ellen, you persist in personalizing this subject. Pardon me for being very frank, but I believe you have issues that have nothing to do with the matter at hand. When you repeatedly use terms like "intimidation", "insecurity" and "anxiety", you indicate a personality that may not mesh well with the realities of the industry.

No, I don't believe every professional posting here went through "serious insecurities" embarking on their career as a professional gardener of whatever ilk - I certainly did not. I knew pretty much the road I intended to follow, although it took a few twists and turns along the way. I sought out the education and additional practical training I needed, completed it and jumped in. You can't learn to swim if all you do is dabble your toes in the water and profess insecurities about how deep and cold the water is.

And no, I never had to deal with the so-called immature remarks you feel this forum generates because I never tried to find the ANSWERS on an internet forum. I never considered it an appropriate place to seek that type of information.

I honestly cannot believe that 100% of every "professional" here did not go through serious insecurities when and before he/she began.

Serious "intimidation", "insecurity" and "anxiety"... ?

No. no way.

Ellen, below is another 'Professional' forum that may come in handy.

We are told repeatedly about the challenges of this industry, about the sacrifices, pitfalls. We hear about the large amount of money that is required, about the business knowledge needed, education.

If you never felt insecurities, then why are we always hearing about how "tough" it is?? About how hard you work? If you had no apprehension about your endeavors, then why is it that a lot of advice handed to wannabes is loaded with apprehension? Maybe you dont hear the apprehension, but if you go back, and reread other posts, other discussions, other issues.....

I realize that you do wish to help, but I dont think it is very helpful to warn about pitfalls,yet say you felt no anxiety when you did it yourself. How does a person give up a secure income, stick 5 or 6 figures into a business, and claim to not have felt anxiety??

There are many other topics being discussed here, by many other people than me. Why do you try to direct the entire thing to a website pertaining to insecurities?

Ellen,
If Patriot had your sincerity, he probably would have been treated with a lot more respect. The fact is, he came in, asked professionals for info, rejected the most pracitical and indicated he didn't want to do any work, and insulted some of the hard-working pros who paid their dues.

He gave the impression of a person who was trying to find an easy way to make quick money more legally than the marijuana he claimed to have grown. Then he went off in a huff because he felt self-entitled, and the info to which he felt entitled wasn't forthcoming.

Sincere people who want to learn get helped. People who sound lazy and looking for quick solutions - preferably handed to them by someone who gained those "quick" solutions over years of hard work and experience - get viewed with suspicion.

Hundreds of people have been assisted on this form by people such as laag and Michelle, Nandina, and many others. They have been very generous with their knowledge. When I first signed up for Garden Web, I was not a professional. Much of the help I got to get started came from pros here.

It's all in how you ask and the respect you show for the knowlege you are addressing. For "freebies," the quality of the information available here belies the saying "you get what you pay for."

Don't be offended by the frank comments you see here. Don't take them personally. And note that your concerns are being addressed sincerely and respectfully by the posters here, because you sincerely voice them. Patriot wanted something for nothing, and without doing any of the work himself, and did not respect or value what he was asking for. Big difference. I provided the suggestion about the book in all sincerity for him and for his benefit, but after he blew it off, the others here could easily read his intent and attitude. That's why he got the mixed bag of responses.

I think there is only one thing left to say....

Group Hug!

And I still think ThePatriot is Mell Gibson.

"But I just gotta ask, how many of you really and truly had to deal with they type of immature remarks that were made to this poster???? Was this really some necessary "hurdle" that some have to cross over in order to "make it" out there???"

Oh, the stories I could tell you...

First of all, as a woman getting into public garden maintenance in the mid-eighties, it was absolutely essential that I have a sense of humor about any amount of ribbing, including explicite sexual harrassment.

Was I told by one of my bosses that I should stop doing the work I love because I was getting big "man muscles" and ruining my looks? YES. You know what my response to that was? Nothing. I just kept doing my work (even better cuz of those cool muscles), but I didn't get discouraged because some idiot was threatened by me.

And yes, when I tried to learn about organic farming by renting 20 acres in the early eighties, I was told by *everyone* that I would fail. Well, I wasn't a great financial success, but I learned a lot, and lived in a beautiful place where my dogs could roam free. But did anyone encourage me? NO! And I had to do all the work myself while my good-for-nothin' partner spent all his time going to folk festivals and telling people he was a farmer? YES, but I made the best of it, and wouldn't trade those really difficult and wonderful years for anything. I learned how to do SO much with SO little, and I never gave up.

Did I roll with the punches and keep learning by doing? YES

If you expect anything to be spoon-fed to you in this field, you are in the wrong business. Period.

However, as time went on, I gained the respect of people in my field whom I respected, as well. It took time. Do people still question my abilities? YES. Who cares? I do my work, and I enjoy it, and I've become kind of good at it. But I do not allow my insecurities to rule my work life. I stick my neck out and try things I've never tried before. I make mistakes, and am criticized for them, sometimes harshly, by colleagues or employees or clients. I try to learn from my mistakes and do it better next time. I can't imagine the pain of doing it any other way.

If you never get criticized, if you never get made fun of, if you never make a mistake, you are not living.

Ellen,

I was not directing my comments toward any individual, but to all people who would be mad at the chef and feel that the fry cook deserved to get what he was aking for.

If you identify with the fry cook, then it is directed at you. If you understand why the chef might not be forthcoming, then it is not.

Its alright to have trepidations, cautiousness, and worries. The best way to relieve those stresses is to take away the unknown. Improving knowledge, skills, and abilities is what reduces the unknown and gives you the security that you know how to deal with things. Bypassing those, by substituting information for knowledge, skills, and abilities is not going to put anyone in a position to have less trepidations, anxiety, or fears because information without being able to process it is nothing.

laag, of course I dont relate to the fry cook! I could see the point you were trying to make. It makes me think about some people who I have helped learn to start seeds. One in particular was a friend who said that they wanted to learn to grow some flowers and a week later said that they wanted to be able to sell some of them. I remember my first thought being "what?! you dont even know how to grow them, and you are already wanting to try to sell something?". And I know you all have had this same thoughts of "okay, where do I start with this person? They are obviously completely clueless.... they have so much to learn....should I waste my time trying to help?........

I totally admire all those who saw this poster the exact way that I just described, and still contributed helpful information. I am amazed you have the time to do it. I just want you to know that.

I feel that I have worn out my welcome here, trying to make a point, and feel I have not gotten anywhere. I didnt even want to check this forum today, but I didnt want to be thought of as one of those people who "didnt have the gumption to return". I dont know why I care what complete strangers think of me, or why I get bothered by it. I reread this whole thing and somehow I am now thought of as a person with major insecurities, and that is not me at all!! I feel very confident in my products, and the service that I do. Somehow, admitting that I have normal apprehension (at times) and anxiety (about making big huge decisions, not everyday ones), and being intimidated (at times) has turned into me having psychological issues. I dont have issues! I am just a normal everyday person, who is learning, researching, studying......my brain never stops on this subject. Yet, I have somehow made myself out to be a weak,feeble, scared little chicken. This is not the person that I am!

I have to agree that this forum should be for the Professionals. But I dont agree on the description of what a professional is. It was stated, many comments ago, that a professional is one who works day in, day out, 12 months out of the year to make a living. It was also stated that someone is NOT a professional if they are "supplementing hubbys income", or if they are a hobbyist. Can you tell me where I stand?

I have been growing plants from seed for years, and began selling them, this year. I work on them 8 (plus) hours per day, and at the same time, I raise my three children (two of which are 18 month old twins). Many of my working hours have been well after dark, after midnight, while my children sleep. I have put my blood, sweat, tears, and money into my products. The money I collected for selling these plants has gone into stocking the deep freeze with meat for the next 6 months, and for buying clothes for my children for summer, and for my funding my own landscaping/gardening passion. I am liscensed and legal.

Do I make enough money to support my family? Absolutely not. But isnt it a bit unfair to say that me or anyone like me is "supplementing their hubbys income"? I dont think that is fair. I happen to think it is SMART to start out slowly and to make sure the finances are in line during those slow years, by making certain we can survive on one income.

Since I have given the same of myself to my "profession" that you have, and have used my income to provide SOME support to my family, does that make me a professional? Even though I didnt earn a 10th of what you make in one week? Even though I dont have the education or type of facilities, or the business knowledge that you do? Do you think of me as a professional? You are right, there are many different definitions of a professional, but who has the right to decide what that definition is, or to cut down someone who is not bringing in the same income as a much more experienced businessman?

I do not consider myself a professional, absolutely nowhere near. But is this forum only limited to those who do cosider themselves professionals? To me, it does, as the forum title implies. And that is why I have felt intimidation. It really is that simple!

I have much to learn, but will not be taking the big "plunge" until the time is right. This decision is not because I am too intimidated, but because I am simply not ready yet, and first and foremost, my profession for the next three years is raising my children to schoolage. I am starting out small, making a bunch of mistakes, learning a lot, and loving every single mintue of it.

I have trillions of questions to ask professionals. I want to post them (one at a time of course), because there are things I want to learn, and not to prove that I have "gumption". I have to believe that if you were still willing to talk with thePatriot, that you will still talk with me.

Or have I worn out my welcome?

Hey ElleninMo, don't take it so seriously. That people are responding to your posts is a good sign, so you're "in." You're in some trouble when they make mincemeat out of you, but not beyond salvation. When you're ignored completely, you are out, and that's that. These are the rules of the GW.

Get your pitchforks everyone, and turn over your compost.........take your frustrations out on the organic matter.......there is nothing like getting mad and over-turning compost. You will feel like right as rain afterward, and you know what, have that spiked lemonade too!!!!!!!!!

This forum is NOT for professionals only. It is for the disucussion of issues regarding any aspect of professional gardening. That can be sharing info on techniques, business acumen, advertising, how to get into the business, education, questions about how customers interact with professionals (from both sides).

This thread is not about professionals snubbing people who are new and just asking questions. If you think it is you missed the point of the entire discussion. This is about wanting knowledge without working for it. Ellen, if you're friend asked you about growing plants and selling them and you said, "Here's a book about growing from seed, I highly recommend it, it's a great place to start." and she turned around and said, "Oh I don't want to read a book, can't you just tell me what's in it?" Would you have still felt inclined to help her? Perhaps you would. I wouldn't. To each their own and more power to you.

Everyone should keep coming back and asking questions and learning.

jb
non-professional

Ellen, you have not, nor will you ever, wear out your welcome here. Nor, as far as I am concerned, will anyone else with a valid question. I truly enjoy spending my lunch break reading and responding to postings on this forum. I wish we could have helped Patriot more, but he needs to refine his questions some, it was just too vague. Had we not chased him away, maybe some of us could have narrowed down what he was requesting. The post referring to handling insecurities was way out of line. I have been in business for 30+ years now, and I still get nervous over some of the decisions I make in my business. Please don't go away Ellen, or anyone else who truly wants some info from us seasoned persons. Polly

Ellen,

You are helping make this a great discussion. You are making me think and you have articulated an excellent thought process. This is what makes a discussion group. It is not adversarial.
I hope you and everybody else stays and participates.

I am arriving entirely too late for this thread. I started a back yard nursery three years ago, mainly because I was getting burnt out physically and mentally doing landscape design, maintenance, and installation after 15 years. When it started out with read this book, I was like there's a book I should get that and I have a degree in horticulture.

The local nursery here is essentially a monopoly and when I direct people there they always groan because they are so horrible to homeowners. They get so much business from landscapers they do not need to answer 20 questions for a $10 sale. Kihei, HI. is also one of the fastest growing places in the US, so the demand for plants is insatiable.

This post and the other about profitability were great for me to read. I have had to deal with all of the issues brought up except greenhouses and cold frames since I live in a greenhouse. The structure I need is a shadehouse.

Yes this nursery business is still lots of hard physical labor, but a touch less so and significantly quieter than the maintenance stuff. I have been lucky that with an existing landscape business and now 18 years of contacts and experience the nursery was making a small and I mean small profit at the end of the first year. At the end of the second year a bad business partnership forced me to relocate to my for real own backyard. I'm lucky in that it is a half acre lot zoned rural which allows this. At three years I am still making just a small profit and was getting a bit discouraged since I have been unable to let go of more of the maintenance accounts. Both these posts have helped give me a bit more hope and determination. There are just so many factors to consider and polish off. It will take a bit more time for me to build a steady clientel and find my niche in this market. I do sell to the monopoly nursery but that usually just pays my own bill there from the landscaping business. I sell retail two days and week and by appoitment.If there is one thing I am learning most is that "grow it and they will come" was a pipe dream. Without location, location, location you need to make a much bigger effort at marketing. All that is completely new to me. I am learning as I go.

I got quite a few chuckles reading all this. I think I'll grow some more pink stuff!

ilima

Well Ilima now that you found us stick around cause it can get steamy round these parts.

Couple comments:
We too had to move after we opened our "backyard" nursery.
One of the main reasons was a lack of parking and customer convenience. Do your customers have any place to park and easily get the plants from the register to their cars?

Also you stated youre only open what 2 days a week? We did the same thing our 1st year although it was evenings and weekends. Big mistake. Not customer friendly at all. We are now open 7 days a week in the spring and fall.

If you grow it they will come. Please believe it is true they will but only if they can park and shop at their convenience not yours.

We also spent some serious cash on radio and newsprint advertising. But only the first two years. We no longer will do that. Waste of money as they know we are here.

Good luck to your nursery and I envy your location!

Ellen,

You are the type of person that I would love to get to know. Through all of your posts I have truly felt your heart. In my book you are tops. ;o)

I have been growing & selling my herbs for several years on the side... I work a full time job as a secretary/bookkeeper for a general contractor in town. I first began growing herbs about 10-12 years ago & since then have a fairly large garden devoted to nothing but herbs. A lot of them I grow from seed; some from propagation. I have read lots & lots of books on the subject but have always been eager to learn more. I dont think you should ever stop learning! It has long been a dream of mine to have my own herb farm. Like you, I am doing it one step at a time because I don't have the means to go in to it all at once. And like you, I believe its smart to start out small & build yourself up. I'm only in the very early stages of making my dream come true, but I do have the determination & tenacity that it takes to see this dream of mine become a reality. I know what kind of hard work it will take and have no delusions of the road ahead. But Im enjoying every step of the journey. ;o)

To the rest of you here on the Professional Gardener I pray that I will be welcome to come here again if I have any questions in the future pertaining to the gardening business.

Blessings,
Beth

moreilly

Where in Indianapolis is your backyard nursery? I am on the east side. When do you have plants available? What kinds? Have you ever been to Soule's Garden?

Thankyou Mylu for the comments.

Yes I do have parking, off street on the road, and an extra two space pad on my driveway. It is tight but doable. From my driveway it is easy to load.

I know the open only two days a week is not good, but it is the best I can do for now. Can't give up any more of the day jobs just yet. I have begun to stress that I will make afternoon appointments any day of the week.

I cringe at the cost of major advertising. I have been doing classified and made a web site ( free with my DSL and bought a Domain name to direct traffic there ) and put the address in the ad. Then of course there are the business cards and flyers that I have put in some of the local stores that allow that.

It isn't news to me, but I have been amazed at how lazy some people are. I live on what amounts to a flag lot on a hill,so you cannot see the nursery from the road. People will find the place and not come down the drive. I have made the upper bed and the drive as attractive as possible to help.

Eventually I would like to move to a more suitable business location. I know I am offering people something they do not get elsewhere here, which is knowledge and attention. Once they find me they always come back for more. The cost of land on Maui is astronomical and rising by the second since we have become one of the second home capitols for the rich. In the meantime this is a good place to be for the learning curve and to develope the business.

ilima

grow annual, you can make lots $ on annual, they are fast and easy to grow and the best part is no warranty! most people prefer blooms and lots of. annuals can blooms profusely which make compulsive buyer ilresistable, most time people just buy plant because the spring and autum temperature are just right to be outdoors digging.

ilima, I must say, I truly envy you living in Hawaii. I was there two years ago for my honeymoon,and I feel in love with it. We went to Maui first then Oahu, and honestly, I dont really have a need to go to Oahu again. Maui was absolute paradise, compared to the incredibly busy and people-packed Honolulu-Waikiki area. The next time I go, it will be to the big Island and the other islands.

They treated us like royalty at the Kaanapali Beach Resort. And for two years now, I cannot find Papaya Seed salad dressing locally for nothing!! I need to have some sent to me. That, and some Plumeria cuttings. It was like a dream world, walking along with Plumeria blooms dropping at your feet! Incredible! We also conceived our twins while at Hawaii! On our honeymoon. A person doesnt get a better blessing than that!

Now, I do have a point here. I recall while at Hawaii that there was not a whole lot of annual displays. I mostly seen the tropicals, which grow like shrubs and trees there and here we can only hope for an 8-inch houseplant! I remember lots and lots of Tye (or Tie or Ty) plants, but not many regular annuals. I am sure what we grow as annuals here(that only thrive for about 6 months) are actually perennials for you. Are nurseries able to grow and offer the same plants year round? And are annual plants desired, or does everyone stick with the tropicals? I really didnt see many homes or resorts that were landscaped with the same plants we grow here.

Hi Ellen, Yes living in Hawaii has its perks for gardening.
We can and do grow annuals but you are right they are not as dominant in landscapes. There are lots of reasons for that, some being that in the tropics we have more choices of plants, people here want what is new and different to them, and like you said what is a tiny house plant to you is a giant tree or shrub here and they will quickly fill any bed they are in and leave no room for the annual stuff. Also we don't have winter that wipes the slate clean every year.

Things like pentas, impatiens and vinca are definately perennials here, so nurseries do offer the same range of plants year round. The only seasonal plant a nursery may have are poinsettia at Christmas time. Ti, pronounced like tea, is a common shrub here because of the wide color range in the leaves.

Every time I go home to Florida I have to bring my mom Papaya seed dressing. I agree with you about Oahu and highly recommend the Big Island. They have the actual living breathing volcanoe there and it is possible at times to walk right up to the flows ( very, very carefully ).

ilima

I've enjoyed all your responses and have to admit the best advice offered was the Tony Avent book at the very beginning. Another piece of data to help me research the subject. Thanks for the info and the cheap entertainment

Hey guys,

This thread has been dormant for many days. Is it possible to revive it? I would also like to ask a few "newbee" questions about "starting a backyard nursery".
Or would it be better to post a new question?

Dan

I'd post a new question. This thread had bad juju.:)

jb

There's a really good book by Tony Avent... :^)

"So You Want to Start a Nursery"

It is now being sought as the next purchase of desirable reading material.

Thanks,

Dan

http://freeplants.com/system.htm Try the info at Freeplants.com. It will give some info and you can call and talk to Mike personally. There is alot of red tape involved and alot of work. And you have to buy the system, pay to be on the Backyard growers message board, etc. But if you are really serious, here is an answer. I found Tony Avent's book more for the commercial operation than for a backyard business. Main problem is both have the same legal requirements, but not the same financial outcome.