Do you have permission from the owners-patent holders of Wave and Avalanche petunias to grow their trademarked product? Just curious.

Cady, I am simply purchasing seeds from the same place everyone else does, growing them, and instead of giving them away, I am selling them. I admit I have never heard of what you are asking me.

Are you saying that every nursery I have encountered who carries Wave and Avalanche petunias has obtained some kind of permission? I mean, I refer to my growers guide from Stokes seeds, where I bought the seeds, it tells me all about how to grow them, doesnt say a word about this such thing! It also doesnt say that you cannot do what you want with your plants, grow them, sell them, kill them, whatever. I am certainly aware that I need a business liscence for selling, this is easy to obtain. Never was aware that any seed I bought I needed to have permission to grow.

Care to elaborate more?? Anyone else?

Oops!Q Please don't panic! I didn't mean to sound like the Plant Police. :) Just was wondering about the laws for growing and selling patented plant cultivars. I believe that Wave petunias are patented and must be purchased from sellers licensed by the patent owner. Stokes definitely would be such a seller so that's not a problem.

As long as the Stokes seed packages don't say on them that you can only grow the seedlings for personal use (not for sale/re-sale of the grown plants), there's probably no problem with selling to your relatives and friends. I do know that plant patent owners are pretty particular about not wanting their plants propagated (by division, etc.) and sold. You're supposed to buy their products from licensed sellers and pay them the money. ;^) But seeds that you bought, then went through the trouble to grow and raise, and are selling privately... probably isn't an issue with them as long as the seeds came from a legit source.

Sorry again - didn't mean to start a panic!

The slow seedlings:
My experience with petunia and other seedlings, is that transplanting them into larger pots encourages focus on root growth rather than above-ground growth. I like the narrow-plug trays because they allow roots to develop some depth, but don't give quite enough room for the seedling to spread out and thus put too much energy into root development. Once they've gained some foliage and go in the garden, they take off pretty quickly.

Cady, thanks for clearing that up! Me being the UNprofessional, I would think it would be pretty difficult to regulate what it is people do with plants once they are grown from seed. I mean, a person could raise these varieties, and sell them as "Blue" petunias, or "Pink" petunias without ever mention of them being waves, and they would owe nothing to anybody! I would think that regulation would have to be done in the seed distribution. If it were me that created a plant, patented it, once it was out there, I would never expect to regain control over what people do with it! There are too many ways to propagate. Of course, what do I know? I mean, I am the idiot in this petunia mess anyway!

However, are you saying that I should not be so worried about what is going on? Now that they are beginning to grow, I suppose that is a good sign, right? I am still concerned about the stunting, I dont even know if I should be afraid of that. It just seems that, if you have a batch of seedlings, at various stages--one set of true leaves, two sets, three sets--and they were all transplanted at the same time, the same way, and all seedlings began blooming at the same time, that would be some kind of physiological issue, rather than "what the plant does once it reaches a certain stage". Does that make a shred of sense? To simplify: the plants will bloom when they are a certain number of days old, despite the size of the plants or number of leaves.

I am just curious if there is some physiological stunting of my petunias since it has been over 8 weeks and they are not near ready to bloom yet.

Oops, I realize that I have now combined this post with the one on the botany forum. For those of you who are confused, please bear with me!

Thank you Cady for your time, and you too Jeff for your email!

What are the light, soil and temperature conditions? Are the seedlings still in soiless starter medium, or are they now in enriched potting soil? Are they under grow lights, in a sunny window, or in a greenhouse?

Petunias are tropical perennials, and need a good shot of warmth and sun to hit their stride in growth. Usually, when plants appear stunted and are starting to show signs of flower bud development, it's usually a stress issue related to the above - not enough nutrients, sun, light, moisture or all of the above. Or, it could be that the larger pot size and soil area are stimulating root growth ahead of foliar growth.

It's hard to say without seeing what your setup is.

It is common in the trade to start seedlings in the smallest cell sizes and bump them up as needed. Some growing manuals even will list those who seem to require doing it this way. I suspect there is some interplay with the plant hormones, but can think of any correlation at the moment. I do know most of the time one does not pinch plants until the roots reach the sides of the pot.

But, I can tell you that when you put a tiny seedling in a large pot it is very hard to regulate the watering. The soil is usually moist for long periods since the root system cannot pull up the moisture. It does tend to keep the roots in soil with little or no pockets of air one usually finds in soil when it dries out between watering.

The rule of thumb is to pick a container who's cicumference is 1.5 the height of the seedling/plant. I always start my waves in open flats, then transplant them to 1203 cell packs (36 pr flat) then bump them up to 1801's or small pots. I know some growers who will put a small 512 size plug in hanging baskets. It takes forever for them to kick in and there is usually difficulty in watering until they do. They eventually catch up if you don't rot them out first.

BTW, when you are talking about plant patents, this is normally found with asexually propagated plants. Not seed growns. Anyone can plant a seed and sell it....... Wave is a trademark, btw. Those types of petunias are sold under a variety of trademarked names like avalanche and ramblin'. I see no reason one could not take cuttings from a seed grown variety as well. You could not, however reproduce the seed and sell it as a wave.

Cady, thanks for your interest. I know my set up will not be as sophisticated as any greenhouse establishment, but please understand that I have been producing great quality plants for a long time this way. I use grow lights (on 16 hours/day), I use heat mats with domes for germination, and heat for a few more days until I feel I have the best germination that I am going to get, then I remove seedlings from heat, onto my grow light shelf, in a room equipped with fans, and a humidifier, as the air is very dry.

I sow all of my seeds in Premier ProMix Seed Starter, and never use anything else, other than vermiculite for covering seed. I use recycled, sterilzed pie plates, pot pie pans, and muffin pans for germination, as I believe in only using an inch of mix for doing this (I do not know the facts, but I know that the heat gets to my seeds better ina shallow container). I do have propagation trays, but I dont use them, they dont fit onto my heat trays. I use bottom watering ONLY, until after transplanting to cells, then I top water.

Once germinated, I grow on until there are 2 sets of leaves (for most things). I know a "ready" seedling when I see one. I then transplant to cells (normally!) using Pro Mix (not the seed starter, the general usage media), however sometimes I will buy Miracle Grow if I cannot get to the nursery. I plant my seedlings up to the cotyledon, sometimes the first set of leaves. I keep my new transplants out of direct light for two days after transplanting, before going back under lights. I use a 10-10-10 fertilizer, diluted twice for every single watering (1/16 tsp), using warm water only. My grow room stays about 65 degrees.

Just so I understand this better.........a plant will produce buds at the sign of stress. This is beginning to make sense to me now, when I consider what someone has mentioned about "a plant's purpose is to reproduce". If a plant knows it must reproduce before dieing, it makes sense that it would put forth the effort at signs of stress. Like it is thinking "oh, I guess they are not going to feed me that yummy fertilizer anymore, I will die soon, better hurry up and make flowers." So, even if you have a puny pathetic looking half dead plant, it may send out a flower bud for this reason. Do I understand this right????

I am so embarrased by this problem. I wish I had photos to share with you of my past years success. I grow thousands and thousands of seeds every year. I have 25 grow lights in my home. I do trials and experiments constantly. Who would have thought I would have made mistakes on something as easy as a dang petunia!

Please excuse my whining.........

Calliope has given you some good "pro" advice. I'm not a professional grower, though I am a horticulturist and professional gardener who starts some of her own plants "in bulk" - the types I use most in my work. I'm just noting that in my experience, when seedlings have been slow to take off, it's usually been because of some stressor such as soil temp not high enough for optimal germination; not enough light; wrong soil medium; not enough moisture, or too much moisture. Typical things.

I looked into patent rights, and noted that Calliope is right on the money: vegetative propagation of patented plants such as Wave and Avalanche namebrands is prohibited, as is propagation from seed you harvest from mature patented plants. But, selling plants grown from seed you purchased is totally fine. Guess it's just as long as they get paid for something - the seeds, a flat of plants - they're happy. ;)

Calliope, so glad to see you here! Cady, Calliope, Jeff, everyone, be streight with me. Will my plants be permanantly stunted? In all of you guy's experiences, have you ever seen such a delay in leaf development result in a normal plant? Have you ever ever wanted to kick yourself in the butt repeatedly for doing something so stupid?

I know what you are thinking "hey Ellen, they are just seeds, just plants". However, I spent 39 cents for each and every single wave and avalanche petunia seed. I have 180 plants (of just these particular plants, I have hundreds of other things growing as well). All but 30 of these petunias were intended for selling. I even have an order from the Girl Scouts who want 28 of these plants for a project they are doing. Their troop leaders seen what I have done in the past, and asked me to grow for them. I expected for them to be able to plant their plants for their project by the end of April. Can you understand how difficult this is for me?! Of course, I am not growing in scale as you are with your businesses, but it was still important to me.

Thank you for your time, this really means a lot to me.

Ellen,
Believe me, I sympathize. It's a horrible feeling to have a lot of people counting on you, and not being able to deliver.

You seem to be doing everything right as far as cultivation. And, all your other plants are doing well. So, here is my "best guess" about your Wave and Avalanche shrimpy early budders: Perhaps because Wave and Avalanche are genetically "programmed" for prolific bloom, maybe they "naturally" start blooming precociously, before they are mature plants.

Yes, your understanding of stress-induced reproductive growth is basically correct: Evironmental stress,if strong enough, will trigger a rush to reproduce early. A sudden drop in temperature or off-season snow storm, severe damage from wind, hail, forest fire -- they all trigger reproductive accelaration. This is a pan-ecological phenomenon that occurs even in humans - when children are in high stress environments (starvation conditions or very poor nutrition, particularly), they reach sexual maturity at earlier ages.

I don't know whether the above applies to your pampered seedlings,though, at least not on such an extreme scale.

At this point, maybe a good move would be to contact the company that owns Wave and Avalanche -- they must have a customer service department or "tech support" person -- and describe to them what's going on and see what they say.

Another option: contact your state Cooperative Extension Service and speak with a horticulturist. There must be an ornamentals expert there who has some insights.

Since the clock is ticking, the sooner you speak with someone, the better. It's best to go right to someone with expertise in these new cultivars and hybrids, and in the cultivation techniques used for garden flowering plants grown from seed.

Good luck, and let me know what you find out (and whether someone gives you help in jumpstarting those seedlings).

Hello everyone, just wanted to finish off this post by explaining that I decided to re-transplant those seedlings back into cell packs. I was very careful not too remove the p-soil from the roots, which were growing practically in a streight line to the bottom of the pot! I think it would have taken a year for those roots to fill out!

I also contacted my former boss, who told me that there should be no reason why my plants would be permanantly stunted. She says that in about 3 weeks, my plants should fill out those cells as if nothing had happened.

Obviously this was a huge learning lesson for me! I wish there was a seed growing BIBLE, with perfect instructions for growing everything out there. I know that I will never again transplant anything directly to 4 inch pots, unless it specifically says so.

Thanks for everyone's information on this issue!

Ball does print such a bible and it's worth your investment. Also try the Ohio State "Tips" series of paperback books. Excellent resources and not that expensive. Good Luck.

Are these available to someone without a tax ID? I would love to find out, and will invest in them. Thank you Calliope.

Oh yes, in fact even if you were tax exempt, you'd have to pay tax on them. Google Ohio Florist Association and they should have the Ohio STate Tips books. Almost any site for professional growers should have access to the Ball publication. I used to get a catalog for professional growers with nothing in it but horticultural books.

Just go to http://www.ballpublishing.com. Anyone who has the $$ an buy their books. Also you should get in the habit of googling for cultural information on the various items you want to grow. All the information is free for the searching.. and usually better than some of the misinformation you often find here.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ball Publishing

Oh I am in love! I want all of the books! I will DEFINITLY be buying them, I have so many books already, but none of them could be as valuable as these will be. One question, will the tips and growing practices in them be useful for someone who doesnt have a greenhouse? I mean, will the information be moreso about the plants themselves, or about recommended greenhouse conditions for them?

Regardless, I will be getting the books. Thanks again, so much.

As an aside -- If you decide to go into business officially (as a one-person operation, horticulturist-grower), your social security number becomes your tax ID too.

Ellen:

go to the Ball Seed web site, and you will be able to pull up grower fact sheets on the Wave petunias. YOu will find most excellent cultural information on growing these plants on. They are so thorough you won't have to buy those books!

they are not precocious, as a matter of fact, Waves can sometimes be damn hard to get into bloom in spring (that is why Ball has 'Easy Waves') in a greenhouse situation. Once they start blooming, and especially once they get into the landscape, then they are prolific bloomers. But, in a 4 1/2" pot (especially in the north) they can be a bug-a-boo. PP

Great resource, perennialprincess. Like I said, my guess about the petunias being, maybe, precocious was just that - a guess. :) My first thought was that the 4.5" pots were just too big and encouraging root development rather than top development. That has been my experience with many other plants when started from seed. The deep, narrow plug trays work best in my experience.

Ellen, maybe your begonias are as persnickety as Waves for some similar reason?

Hey there PP, and everyone else. I am elated to learn that I can get information from Ball online. I must be the worst googler, I have a hard time finding definite information online. I will be checking this out and will be buying the books as well.

I cannot tell anyone how much I appreciate this information. I keep wanting to come here on this forum and post questions, I mean, who else better to ask than the pros, right? I do not want to disregard the information from ameteurs like me, though, because those of us without a greenhouse, and have to use grow lights, we have to adjust our methods to do whatever will work for us. For instance, last year, my Impatiens. I grew them in cells, and had problems with maintaining growth at the base of the plants. Even after pinching the basal growth was leggy, wimpy. My plants kept trying to grow upwards instead of outwards. My plants did not have a bushy growth habit until they were planted out. I found out from friends in the Impatiens forum that impatiens are sensitive to "touching" each other. With them growing so closely together in cells, they were not getting adequate light to the base of the plant. From what I understand, this would not have been a problem in a greenhouse where the light comes from all sides. So, as a grow light grower, I made the decision this year to plant my impatiens in 3 inch pots, rather than cells (those 3 inch pots that starter foliage plants come in). I have much more space between my plants,they get much more light to the base, undoubtedly because the plants are not shading each other from the precious light they get only from above. They are already producing fantastic side growth, and they have not even been pinched yet. I am sure you all do well with impatiens in cells, but I had to adjust my methods.

I cant tell you how your little tidbits of information are VALUABLE to me, and to others. I happen to believe that it is very important to know not only WHAT to do, but WHY you are doing it. Calliope, you mentioned earlier that "plants should not be pinched until they reach the sides of the pot". I found this to be incredibly important information! Why had I never heard of that before? I was always following the "4 inch rule".

I just wanted to take a minute to let you all know how much I appreciate your time. I feel that I shouldnt be posting here, as I am not a professional, so I do refrain, but feel priveledged to have this opportunity.

Now, gonna check out those Ball Seed websites!

Ellen:

no problem, happy to share info. There are lots of great annual people lurking in this site.

One other thought came to mind - another great, great show to go to is the Ohio Florists Association which is held in Columbus Ohio, typically in mid July. Really excellent education sessions, along with a whopper of a trade show. Again, a great way to learn a lot, and not that expensive to attend.

I find that Ball website invaluable. Lots of the big seed companies have great websites.

have fun. hope your petunias and begonias perk up for you soon! We are at the height of planting season here in Minnesota, and the potting machines are a -whirling!

PP

I know this is a really old thread, but it's the one I came here looking for.

We are first-time professional growers, working on the seed order, and my specific question was whether it is ok to plant directly into a 1203 cell, or should everything start in plug trays first? I was pretty sure it's not a good idea to start seed in 1801s, and I think I'm hearing that that's right(?) What about going from a 105-tray direct to a 4" pot?

I also tried to google Calliope's suggestion on the Ohio State "Tips" books but couldn't find them ... and wonder if the "Bible" from Ball you referred to was the Stryker book? That's out of print now and used copies are *really* expensive.

Thanks in advance ,,,