"CHPinOH7,
I'm sure it was an honest mistake for you to recommend Ty Ty but they are known for endlessly scamming people and running a bad business that is currently under fraud investigation."

Chitown033, can you post some more info about TyTy? I have dealt with this nursery twice, once by phone, and the other time I actually stopped in for visit on my way to Florida (they're just outside Tifton along I-75). Both times, I was pleased with my purchase, and had no problems. A bit of a surprise to hear they're under a fraud investigation. Where did you see this news?
Thanks.

Hi wingo,
They were removed from garden watchdog awhile ago. They had many many negative reviews. They were also accused of posting their own positive reviews. Here is what shows up when a search is done for TyTy in gardenwatchdog.com

"You may be searching for a company that is no longer listed in the Garden Watchdog. For questions about their removal from the Garden Watchdog, you should contact this vendor directly. We also recommend contacting the Better Business Bureau to ascertain any company's track record with their customers."

Kyle

Screw TyTy, I ordered a Canary island and true date palm. They both died in a couple of weeks. I did order two needle palms which are doing ok.

Anyone know if Jungle Music is good? I was thinking of buying a Trachycarpus Takil from them this spring.

Personally I am going to try a few chamaerops here in St. Louis this year. i have been growing windmill palms here for years. All northerners, don't listen to people from the south. i think the sun gets to their brains. the most important part of keeping your palms alive through the winter is finding the right microclimate. Wind is the number one killer of palms. i have many robustas on my unheated sun porch that have seen temperatures down to 10F, but with no wind. Chicago has been known to be windy, ha so giving them a sheltered site close to your home would keep your roots from freezing. Last i checked, noone in here has a degree in horticulture (except me) so don't listen to anyone. If you're willing to try it - there IS a chance of success, this is a general rule in life. If everyone was negative like these southerners and never tried anything, then i think the world would be without some of it's greatest inventions. Good Luck

Don,
Good information. How are you plants doing?

The term 'Windy City' has nothing to do with weather... it was a politician term. We're no windier than anywhere else in the midwest.

Kyle

Kyle,
all my plants are doing great. we've had a very mild january. warmest in over 100 years. i'm liking this warm trend. i can't remember the last time we've had a negative temperature. this is good for our heating bills.
I've started a bunch of seeds this week including more chamaerops, needle palms, sabal lousiana, canary island dates, and jelly palm. also i'm growing more hardy canna, bleeding hearts, midland shooting stars, royal catchfly and a few other natives. i grafted a few japanese maples this week and also ordered a few more rare varieties. I'm definately ready for march so i can start planting outside.
Got a question though: which forum does everyone chat in the most? I'd really like to keep in touch with other growers, & possibly trade plants. I'm also a multimedia developer so i think i'm going to try to put up a good hardy palm site in the coming weeks so i'd like to get everyone's input on what they would like to see in it. Well good luck everyone, that groundhog should be here soon to deliver the good news.

Peace out
Don

Illinoispalms,

Jungle Music has a great reputation for providing hard to find species. The quality of the plant is good too.

They also have a $200.00 minimum on mail orders as well.

don, go ahead and start a palm forum that would be great try going to soxtalk.com a messageboard like that would be great. Also your robusta's how do you protect them? christmas lights, mulch?

hey spataro. i am going to try to write a message board, though it's been along time and i usually don't get requests for cool things in my work. as for the robustas, they are on an unheated sun porch. it usually stays about 10 degrees warmer back there, than outside and there's no wind. My point was that palms can actually take much colder temperatures than most people say, IF they are protected from wind, like in my case. Some of the seedlings have died back there but i just don't care. Call it survival of the fittest. i'm looking for the hardiest individuals of that crop, which brings me to a very important point. I see on forums where people are always saying to find the largest palm you can and that will in some way provide better success. In my professional opinion i strongly disagree. A plant that has been growing for years in say florida, is going to be in for a "rude awakening" when u plant it outside in a climate that it is not accustomed to. Seedlings are THE way to go. First of all, seedlings are MUCH easier to protect the first few years. Secondly when you are trying to grow palms in your area over an extended period of time and if you actually want permanent plants, then your goal is to actually change the plants genetics by getting it to grow from the start in your climate. The only difference i have seen in palms grown from seeds/seedlings in colder areas is their tendency to be more of a dwarf variety as compared to their southern counterparts. But this is just natures adaptation to the conditions present. Look at all the hardiest palms out there, they are basically the dwarf types. Last but not least, hardiness varies as much among individuals as it does among species, so basing your experiment on one larger plant versus many seedlings may lead to your ultimate downfall. Plant many seedlings and basically let nature select the strongest plants for you. i have heard people have problems with large needle palms whereas smaller, more tender species have survived with flying colors.
Also i have a HUGE 125 ft northern pin oak in my yard that i had heard was over 300 years old. It produces some very robust seedlings and obviously this tree has flourished in our conditions where oak has been on a very steady decline in our state over then last 200 years. If anyone wants one, it will be free.
Well good luck everyone

Don

Don,
All good points, I've been working with Phoenix & Livistona Sp. and have found a large variability between individual seedlings. Some 2 leaf CIDP's seen 15F temps and froze solid in their pots, have since thawed and started growing again with no damage evident. (unfortunately this was in my greenhouse with outside temps at -14F in Dec.)
We do have one Phoenix seedling in the ground here that has survived so far, It's planted next to a willow seedling and their roots are pretty well intertwined, just have mulched with leaves, exposed foliage was fried but with the warm weather it is starting to push it,s 3rd strap leaf. Not sure if we'll turn up any long term survivors here but so far the results have been better than anticipated.

Steve
(Middle of Kansas)

Steve,
That's awesome. Which type of phoenix are you growing. So far i have phoenix canariensis, sylvestris, roebellini. It is amazing though getting them to survive in kansas. you really should check out the chamaerops. There is much debate to it's exact hardiness. I've read anywhere from -20 to 15F. I would put out many seedlings and just see which will survive. This IS the worlds most northerly naturally occuring palm. I have a very large one in a pot i bring out every year for my front porch. As long as your cold snaps don't last very long, they should be fine. What is the lowest temperature you have seen so far? Mine was 8 degrees here in south st. louis city.

Back in Dec we hit -14F in the yard and officially -10F at the airport 25 miles from here. The little space heater in the greenhouse did manage to keep it at 15F which made for some interesting cold hardy observations, (It's safe to say Majesty palms do not recover from being frozen solid:-)
Chaemerops is definately on my list to try here and Sylvestris is also rumored to be somewhat hardy and fast growing. This winter's victims(and survivors) have been Canary Island Dates that were sourced from Louisiana, This batch has had some abnormalities showing up,(such as below). This is a picture from this summer, since then it has grown another horizontal strap leaf, not sure if I should prop this up on it's side or what,
{{gwi:1180800}}
Steve

Don,
Sorry I didn't respond earlier, I just got back from Dallas. I got many large yuccas and a Robusta and Louisiana.
St. Louis is looking pretty nice this winter. Chicago got hit with 7" of snow in the 36 hours that I was gone. Havn't seen snow on the ground since before Christmas. This is a big difference!! However, temperatures will remain in the 40's it looks like. I sure could use some more of those 60s though!
That is great that you are starting seeds, I am too, of Trachycarpus Fortunei 'Bulgaria', Sabal Minor 'Hatteras' and Needle palm seeds. I started them back in December, and none have germinated yet =/
Anyways, the forum that has hundreds of posts a day is the Hardy Palm & Subtropical Board:

http://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/index.html

I definately think you should start your own forum, and your multimedia skills should definately have a nice roll in that. However, this one is 7 years old and probably can't be beat with the populairity, sources, and information.

Good luck, and keep in touch,
Kyle

Kyle,
Yeah i haven't been checking this as often as i'd like. I just got another puppy, and another something to have to look after. The seeds you're growing probably wont sprout until April or May, which is good. Respecting the natural cycles are very important in growing anything from seed. This is the warmest January ever on record for St. Louis. We've only had 3 nights where the temperature has even gone below freezing at night. Simply amazing. I had made some plastic covers for my sensitive plants, but screw that idea i doubt that i will need them now since after looking at the 10 day forecast, we will be much into the 50's every day. Maybe this will shut up some of the doubters out there who think global warming isn't a real thing. It's very real. .8 degrees a year last i heard. As for the site, i don't have the time now since this is my busy season and i know i can't compete with success such as this site, but i will try to aim to serve a different purpose with it....i'm not sure what yet, but i'm sure i'll come up with something. The canary island dates up above shock me that they could even begin to survive the negatives he was talking about, even in a greenhouse. If that were an adult date palm from Cali or something it would have fried at about 15. I'm getting ready to divide a huge clump of yucca filimentosa so lemme know if anyone wants any. I'm replacing them with some very rare dwarf jap maples. Well keep in touch.

Don

"the rope lights can raise the temp. 40F..."
Sounds a little much for me. I doubt if I wrapped lights and some cloth around my coconut it would raise my night time low of 45F to 85F.

Also, I think we have a clashing of two mentalities here. 1. An individual who is not afraid to lose a palm and 2. An individual who would rather not lose a palm. I personally would fall under #2. I am all for pushing zones, don't get me wrong but this situation just seems like a bit of a stretch. Just pack your things and move to central or south Florida. That way you can grow just about any palm! Yesterday's high of 84 sure felt nice to me and my palms. haha

Ok, first of all, let me just say something in defense of all my northerners. I am jealous of palm trees from the south and THAT'S IT!! Personally i like change and i like winter as long as it's not brutal. I am not a fan of oppressive heat for 6+ months a year, insects and other pests that aren't killed or atleast put into dormancy by a freeze or two, and i'm certainly not a fan of overinflated real estate. The beach is disgusting in California, much better in Florida, but still...is it worth half your paycheck. I am 27 years old, i bought my home in CASH, and i'm not looking for a second job to pay my property taxes. It's a mentality though. They would rather pack themselves into trailers in Florida than put up with a little cold each year. Not me. I enjoy NOT having millions of people around me and tourists from all over the planet invading my area all year long. So it comes down to this, do i want to move to a subtropical climate just for some palms, NO freakin way! And i'm a botanist, so i'm sure this holds true for the rest of us out there. The same people in Florida are jealous of my gorgeous japanese maples they can't grow. No matter where u live, the grass is always greener on the other side. (especially this time of year, haha) With a little time, careful planning, and maybe some protection, we can enjoy the same plants here for atleast 9 months a year. Put your palms in pots and bring them inside for Dec and Jan like I do. I have not protected my outdoor palms AT ALL this season....so it CAN be done. St. Louis is far from tropical in the winter.

Palmshaun,
It depends on how close the cloth is, and how thick or how many layers. It might not take your low from 45 to 85F, but they can definately take 0F to 40 or even 50F.
Last winter, when I ever had to use the rope lights that meant it was very cold, usually about 10F or colder. I remember sometimes the temperature getting into the 70's under that fabric and I had to loosen it up.

Don,
St. Louis has been incredible this year. Take advantage of it! As for the north, all that we need to do is state the facts, post our pictures, and let other draw their own conclusions. The most important thing is what the palms mean to you personally, and that you are doing this for yourself and no one else. Climate just isn't everything as you said.

Kyle

Well the southerners have acted childish so now i will. Were growing Jap. Maples pines and palms in zone 6 so all the southerners, we have all you have plus more so HA

Really Kyle? That's pretty cool. I see your palm is doing pretty well that's awesome. Its too bad most of the tropical palms, ie coconut and royal, grow to large to keep indoors. Definitely keep us updated with pictures. Its pretty cool seeing what you all grow up north, especially in the ground.

As for what Don said, you're right. For most the grass is usually greener on the other side. So everything you said could be rebuked. For one, Japanese Maple? I think a Royal Poinciana will suffice. {{gwi:1180801}}

Missouri's population growth from 1990-2000 was 9.3%(478,310) while Florida's was 23.5%(3,044,452). So apparently most don't share your view.

Hey guys-

Just figured Id chime in on this one. I don't believe that anyone should be discouraged from trying to grow a palm anywhere. There are many palms I can't grow here because of either excessive heat, or high humidity. I still try them out in optimal locations - i.e. a Howea forsteriana and Rhopalostylis sapida in full shade which would normally be toast in a Florida summer. I think the key is growing palms that can be easily protected in terms of height and overall size.

I think the word hardy is somewhat of a vague term. For me, a palm is hardy if it will live through 95% of the winters/summers here with no protection. With that said, I don't think that any palm is hardy to any zone below 6b, and even that is pushing it.

I never have had any dealings with TyTy, but I am sorry to hear that it supposedly is going downhill. As a palm nurseryman myself, I am not happy with people who try to deceive customers into making them think something is what it is not.

So anyways, grow that palm, and time will tell whether it lives!

-Christian Faulkner

http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/USIL0225

FACTS!!!! -20's occured in the 1980s. I remember it being -17here in Detroit in early '94..this year we bottomed out at +6 while last year my thermometer on the way to work said -13...click january you'll see a whole list of shitty days and the years they happened. chip in OH is obviously wrong in saying that -15 hasnt happened in 100 years.

Being in the mid-upper South is a marginal Zone 7 for Trachys and Sabal Louisiana, but with good micro climate planting, it can be done. Chicago and Detroit (I lived not far from the motor city for 2 years) are not good places for palms other than Sabal Minor and Needle Palms. Even then, sub zero strikes from Canada can take them out. Having a Med Palm in a pot is OK, but to leave it out will eventually lead to its death. No flame, just my 2 cents.

Now I'm confused, "mid-upper South".....just joking, LOL

I dont think we have more than the zone ten florida and then some....theres plenty of pines and palms down to the keys.

I know I am coming in late into this thread, but describing Chicago as frozen tundra can not be more wrong. And as far as recorded temps these are basically from O'Hare Field and if living in the City of Chicago you can bump these temps up a good 10-20 degrees.

I moved to Lincoln Park from Tampa and did not even own a winter coat for 5 years, just did not need a heavy coat until we moved to the Far North Burbs. Much of Chicago is concrete and buildings and the radiate heat changes the surrounding air temps greatly.

While living in Chicago my experience with growing tropicals was very successful, although I did not try palms. The biggest problem is not the temp but dry Winters. But if you water during the winter, just dampen the ground, your success rate will increase.

Now living in a rural area, the NW winds coming off of 20 acres of pasture is a real killer. We are remodeling and building an addition which I purposely designed to protect my patio area from the NW winds and hopefully will be able to grow some palms. I will wait a few winters just to see how much protection is offered but if I am correct, I should be able to grow a few palms successfully. Granted this will not be like my Florida landscape but just a bit of a reminder of my bay front home.

glad to see more windy city folk growing palms and tropicals!!! Good luck to you!

I have a few suggestions for midwest palm and tropical growers. First, a great tropical to grow outside around the chicago area is Musa Basjoo, the Hardy Banana. It grows 12 to 15 feet in a year, but will probably die back in the winter and start new "pups" in the spring. I am going to try a Needle Palm in the spring and maybe a Trachy if i can find enough proof that it will overwinter here. Rope lights, heavy mulch, and maybe a makeshift greenhouse out of plastic and a wood frame for the worst nights will suffice. I also enjoy yucca rostrata. It looks close to a palm tree and is hardy to zone 5.

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1180795}}

palmboy
I'm in Iowa and I have two sabal minors and one needle that all survived last winter in the ground. Only protection was a pile of dry leaves when it got below 0. I also have a 12' Washy in my backyard that I wrap and heat during the winter. Don't listen to people who tell others that it is expensive and tedious to overwinter palms for the winter. The wrap for the Washy took less than an hour to put on and all I had to do for the winter is make sure the lights were plugged in when it was below 30. If I can overwinter a 12', 500 pound Washy in Iowa I think it is pretty safe to say that a small palm can be overwintered here in the midwest with ease.

That's right..several people around here have tried Trachy's and other palms very successfully with adequate protection.

This year I will be attempting (keyword "attempting") to overwinter an ingound 3 ft pygmy date palm using a small heated greenhouse. Crazy or not, gonna give it a try. Worst case is it dies and I return to Lowe's next year for a free replacement. Gotta love those 1 year guarantees!

ptm.

I GUARANTEE you. If you set things up correctly, it will work.

Some things to consider:

- use a small greenhouse whose footprint is at least 2' wider than the rootball. That's so that when the ground freezes, outside the GH, it won't disturb the roots. If too small, the freeze can creep in underground and hit the roots or at a minimum, cool the ground too much that rot starts.

- use some sort of water buffer. In the small GH structures, I use 25 Gal pail. You know, those big blue ones with the white rope handles, from Home Depot. They were only about $5 or $7 each. Very cheap, easy to use.

- insulate the entire greenhouse with something to keep the heat in and the cold out. All except, say the front to let some sun/light in.
I used Sterafoam insulation that was only an R5.6 on the back, sides and peaked roof on the back side. On the front, where the sun would shine, I used a couple of layers of bubblewrap. I also laid some bubble wrap around the parameter of the GH to slow down ground freeze.

In my case, I covered the entire thing with a layer of poly plastic to keep any air from leaking out.

- inside, I used my blowdryer on a baseboard heater setup and set the temp accordingly. In your case, you'll want to keep the temps well above freezing for a date palm.

- use copper based fungicide or any fungicide you feel comfortable using to help keep rot from happening.

Once set up, water very little and check it weekly to make sure it's not too humid inside, watching for any signs of trouble.

Other than that, there's no reason why the tree can't survive/thrive.

Hey, don't forget pictures, huh?! ):)p

Well, if yall can do all this and have stuff in the yard, just think what I can do. LOL , H3ll, might even try it.
I should have a yard full. Dont ya think?

blondboy--

Thanks for the encouragement...I honestly do appreciate it! You know half the fun will be just trying to pull this off, so either way, it's going to be great. I'll be giving it my best shot and be sure to use the advice you gave closely. Also, stay tuned for pics. Thanks again!

Paul

Paul:

You said, You know half the fun will be just trying to pull this off,

You just hit the nail on the head! I see so many NEGATIVE posts by what appear to be people who live in more southernly locations stating how we can't have success up here growing palms; or that it's too expensive or too time consuming (yet, it's our $$$, our time).

Some seem to just not get it.

Yet, your words have really just summed it up beautifully.

IT'S FUN! :)p

Palms are amazing plants and whenever I visit warm climates, I'm completely amazed by them. But to be able to grow them up here is truly something else. When grown in the South, your friends and neighbors think little of it, but when done successfully here, it's the talk of the block. That alone makes the extra work and expense worth it. But then again who cares what others think right? We enjoy these all our own.

I'm not sure why some southern people get down on us northerners for attempting to grow palms in the ground. If they are true plant lovers and their argument is that it is "cruel" to the plant. I guess I can apprecite that. If the argumet is that it's a waste of time and money, well it's our time and money to waste. I also want to add that I know it's not all southerners who are negaitve. There have been many of you who have encouraged me and shown apprecitation for the picture I've posted. All I know is that I love sitting in my back yard seeing Sabal Minor and Needles growing in the ground. I don't know if they'll look as healthy next summer as this is my first attempt but I know I'll do everything I can to ensure they do. It's really only maybe a month or two worth of REALLY cold weather (single digits) that we need to worry about.

I know flound and steve k are " bomb throwers" but they are fun to read and keep things lively. I also have seen pictures posted by chitown33 and he is a serious palm grower with a landscape that would be the envy of almost anyone, no matter what state you are from. we are all in this together,no crazier than golf fanatics or any other hobby. plus you can't grow apples in florida, so it all works out in the end

I plan to protect a Trachycarpus, a Needle, and a Sabal minor with JUST snow. Has anyone else tried that yet? My yard gets over 120 inches of snow each winter. Every time we get arctic air, we get Lake Effect snow. So, we are almost guaranteed snow when it gets below 10 degrees. Some plants in my yard can be covered with feet of snow for months at a time. Can snow on a palm for that long create any damage?

Since its too late in the season to plant palms, I'm planning to buy them next spring to start the experiment the following winter. Watch it will probably be the rare year that we get less than 100 inches of snow. lol

ooooooOOOOO I wouldn't go there!

Snow, while it may insulate somewhat, can't be good as the sole protection for a palm, I would think.

Just the moisture alone, that enters the crown during thaws would be more than enough to cause rot and spear loss.... probably root rot at well.

I mean, while we do these palms things up north, I still think that we need to be logical and protect as dry as possible with at least some heat.

Just my 1.5 cents! :)p

christropical, I am in zone six massachusetts and we do not get reliable amountsof snow for a full winters cover. What are you going to do if it does'nt snow?

blondboy47, I had more positive feedback on another palm forum about my plan. You brought up a good point about the snow rotting the crown, makes me wonder why no one on the other forum mentioned that. I've heard people in the Northwest US complain that they wish they had snow cover to protect their palms. Maybe they were misguided. I'd love more comments about piling snow on palm trees and its effect.

nucci60, The difference between Massachusetts and where I live is that Massachusetts doesn't border a Great Lake and I live less than 40 miles from Lake Ontario. More than 60% of our snow comes from Lake Effect storms. The least amount of snow we have ever had for one year is 59 inches. The most was 192 inches. Since all arctic cold fronts come from the Northwest, the air needs to pass over Lake Ontario before it hits us, thus creating heavy Lake Effect snow squalls over my neighborhood. I am located southeast of Lake Ontario. But if you are right and we don't get enough snow, I wouldn't mind keeping Christmas lights on the palms all winter.

blondboy.....i know you had a blow dryer set up in your green house last year.... my question is how did you get it to turn on when the temps got below a certain point? What did you use as a thermostate and most importantly how would i go about setting one of these up for myself? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

I think you are both right. If it is WAY below freezing and there is NO chance of the snow melting it would make excellent insulation. Just besure to remove it if there's a chance for a thaw. I would also recommend some other protection, the type depends on the palm.

you could set one up to something like this:

http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CT-1000

it's pre-wired and ready to go. just set your temp between 30-110F and you're done.

spataro51

I used what's called Baseboard Thermostat. You can find them at Homedepot and Walmart. Very common.

The difference between one of these types and a low voltage type, is that the baseboard thermostat is designed for the high current that a baseboard heater requires. It will handle 15 amps without a problem.

Here's a picture of how I connect it up to a wall plug. All mounted on a stick.

DISCLAIMER:

THIS IS FOR DEMO PURPOSES ONLY. IF YOU ATTEMPT THIS ON YOUR OWN, DO SO AT YOUR OWN RISK. ALSO, PLEASE HAVE A BIT OF ELECTRICAL BACKGROUND BEFORE ATTEMPTING AS YOU COULD CAUSE A FIRE IF NOT CONNECTED CORRECTLY.

PLEASE NOTE. Do NOT use any kind of Extention cord to make this. Use only actual House wire and heavy duty, 3-prongled plug. Plug only into an outlet with nothing else in the line.
Also, for such a small structure, I had the blow dryer set to its lowest heat setting. On this dryer, this consumed only 400Watts of power (approx.)
{{gwi:1173846}}

In this picture, you can see the blow dryer and the thermostat on a stick. Below (out of view) the thermostat, on the same stick, is another box with a wall plug in it.
{{gwi:1135379}}

the way that thing looks I'll bet I could spend the winter in there, except my legs would probably stick out. What we won't do in northern climes to say we overwintered a palm tree in the ground. you're nuts, I'm nuts, we're all nuts.

BTW - my wife has that same hair dryer and it does a number on her hair, no wonder your palm look so good.

where can i buy palm trees good for chicago zone 5 ?.also what kind would that be?.

Just FYI, I planted 3 med fan seeds from Las Vegas at my parents in Pittsburgh, PA in April. Two of them germinated and have 2-3 strap leaves. They are covered with a 7 gallon nursery pot full of leaves with no added heat. They have survived 5*F,6*F and 9F so far without any leaf damage. Take it for what it's worth.

Long term Pittsburg, PA is going to be way too cold and too wet for Med-Fan Palms outside with out extraordinary protection. The farthest north I have seen them grow well is Virginia Beach, near the Ocean and one Med-Fan Palm in the middle of Washington, DC in a urban backyard in a south facing location, surrounded by buildings and concrete in a well drained area with a roof overhang. It has survived outside so far with no serious frond damage so far. One bad winter can ruin it all. Let's hope NOT!

virginian

I do not disagree with you at all about a Med's long term survival in the north without protection. But, I think it does show that plams seedlings can adapt to a colder environment. These are true seedlings and should be dead by now, but they are not. BTW, Pittsburgh metro area is now listed as a zone 7a.

I live in central Pa, zone 6a, and I can confirm that Pittsburgh is on average 4*-5*F warmer than my location. Temperature readings for Pittsburgh are taken at weather stations located in the suburbs of Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is located in the foothills of the Laurel Highlands. This area tends to dam weak warm fronts in the winter from the southwest. It's not uncommon to have a temperature reading at my house of 30*F and Pittsburgh be at 38*-40*F although I am only 130 miles east. Sorry about the rambling...LOL Pittsburgh has the same image problem as Chicago.