Can't wait, last week Peg and I were at the local Ace Hardware and I asked the young girl if they had any garden seed out yet. She asked, "Like what kind of garden seed?" I said, "vegetable" she said "oh no" and gave me a look like you dumb ol' man!

Keith

Winter solstice is one of my favorite days of the year. Only a gardener, huh?

It is then I seriously start thinking about winter sowing, etc. Gotta get to Lowe's for some seed starting mix right after Xmas.

Horn's just down the block from me always has seeds. I could always go there and drool a bit.

Another thought about spring 2011, and the likelihood of La Nina extending through it, is that it will be easier to plant. I find myself trying to plant in the mud frequently during our wet springs because the soil rarely has a chance to dry out sufficiently for planting. Have you ever tried to plant in wet clay? Mind boggling experience. I tend to get mired in it.

Here's to spring!!!

Susan

Dawn we won't see any Christmas cheer like garden seeds on the shelves here. You are just teasing those of us who won't see them till in late Jan. It used to be I was starting seeds before the seed displays were out. Now it seems they have started putting them out a little earlier and I have been planting a little later. Depending on the progress of all of my projects I may start some seeds a little earlier in 011.

We ended up with maybe 2" of snow if you account for what was melting while it was falling. Not much moisture but at least cleared the air a little. My BIL and sister got around 4 inches 20 miles SE of me. Just like I had stated earlier we were on the north edge. The crew showed up and erected my 12'x20' storage shed. The light snow falling and the cold didn't slow them up any. So now when I finish the reefer trailer and hopefully the greenhouse will have another building to insulate, panel and light around my gardening activities. So no lack of projects in 011 for me. So far I haven't ordered many seeds. Need to get through what I have and sort them out and also send off seed requests. But been wiring till close to nine every night. The weather looks good for the rest of the time I'm off. So hopefully will get a few projects out of the way. Didn't get the bale chopper with the long discharge hose at the auction Wed so having to spread the leaves with a wheel barrow. It takes so long running that volume through my Troy Bilt shredder I'm just applying them and then turning them under and then tilling them 4-6 inches deep with the JD tiller on my tractor. They were really dry and the co worker who brought them to me jumped on them to break them down so he could load more on each load. So most are already broke up some. I have never did them this way before. Will see how it works out. They will be mixed with the straw I applied last summer. I usually like to pile the leaves and let them set a year. But didn't have enough of the year old leaves left this year to apply to the whole garden. Just hope we get some moisture so they will start decomposing. Jay

Keith,

I get those funny looks whenever I buy anything related to seed-starting, like Jiffy Mix or starter flats in January or tomato plants in 5" or 6" plantable peat pots around Valentine's Day. Why do they look at us like we're crazy if we're starting seeds in Dec. or Jan. or tomato plants in February when they are the ones who stock the shelves with the stuff in those months? And, how is it any different for us to buy seeds and seed starting stuff in January at, let's say Wal-mart for example, when they also have swimsuits on the racks at that time too?

Susan,

Well, only a gardener or perhaps a Wiccan rejoice over the winter solstice. (Dec. 21st is celebrated as Yuletide by some northern hemisphere Wiccans and as Litha by some southern hemisphere Wiccans and, no, I am not a Wiccan.) We celebrate the 21st as Tim's birthday at our house, and don't you know it really sucked as a child to have your birthday the same week as Christmas!

I have tried to do everything in very wet clay, including planting, and it doesn't work well.

Last Christmas was the worst clay issue we've ever had it, and it didn't even involve the garden. All the snow and ice in December compounded problems caused by heavy rainfall in 2009 (remember, we had 12.89" of rain in one 24-hour period in April) and our entire 300' long gravel driveway completely disappeared. I am not sure how much of it washed away versus how much of it was "sucked underground" by the wet, mucky clay but the result was that we had to park in the bar ditch for 4 or 5 days and walk up the hill (though we did not actually walk in the quick-sand-like mucky clay where the driveway used to be but instead in the grass alongside it) to the house.

When our local back-hoe operator extraordinaire, Elvis, came over to fix the driveway, he told us that people all over Love County were having the same issues....all of our driveways disappeared into the clay together at the same time. We were lucky because he had just enough driveway base and gravel to fix ours on the first day that it was dry enough to work. Others had to wait for him to get more driveway base and more gravel. In our almost-12 years here, that's the first time we have had a driveway disappear, although occasionally heavy rains wash out bits of it and we have to get out there with a rock rake and garden rake and reclaim the gravel that's washed off the driveway and into the adjacent pasture. In my raised beds, planting in dry soil isn't so bad because they are heavily amended and have good tilth. In the grade-level beds, it just depends on how dry it is. If the ground is hard as concrete, I can't plant until it rains or until I water it long and slow and soak it down several inches. Then, I have to watch like a hawk and plant seeds as soon as the clay is "dry enough" but before it gets "too dry".

Jay,

Sorry. I was not trying to torture you. You're two zones colder than I am, so of course your stores probably don't get the gardening stuff out quite as early as ours do.

Sometimes our stores put out plants much too early. Last year, all the usual stores that have the large, early tomato plants which arrive around Feb. 10-14th, apparently didn't have any employees who understood that tomato plants cannot tolerate cold temperatures. Every tomato plant in every store from southern OK to the D-FW metroplex froze because the garden center employess left those plants outside, and in some cases completely unprotected. When I went looking for the early plants all they had was dead and completely frozen plants. Do these stores not have one employee that knows tomato plants can't sit outside when snow and freezing temps are expected? It was sort of ridiculous. I think if I had 10-14" of snow in the forecast, I'd take the poor tomato plants back inside! I finally found some living plants at the end of Feb. at a Home Depot in Southlake, TX, and they had just arrived the day before and were, in fact, wrapped up under a tarp and frost blanket even though it was a relatively balmy 50-something degrees when I found them.

I was watching the radar yestereday and thought you might have a little snow there, but you received more than I expected.

It is great that you're making progress on all your projects. Tim and I have made almost no progress on any of our projects during the last six weeks because it seems like there is fire dept. business that needs to be done every single minute of the day lately, and I'm not complaining because a good volunteer fire department is such an asset to a community. I just wish we had some project time to work on all our projects at home. The exterior of the screened-in porch is complete so it is sealed and weatherproof, but the interior finishing work still needs to be done and it isn't even on the "To Do" list until after New Year's. From that point on, how quickly we make progress on it will depend on how many fires we're having.

At least in a dry winter we get a lot more of work done on all the outdoors projects because it is more pleasant to work outdoors in sunny, mild weather than in freezing cold wet weather.

One year I rototilled whole oak leaves into the soil (not really on purpose, but because they were there and I was too lazy to rake them out of the way) and they hardly broke down at all the first year. It might have been one of those horribly dry years when no winter rain fell. By the second year, they had broken down pretty well though.

It is sunny and gorgeous here right now, around 50 degrees, and very pleasant. Tomorrow will be warmer still, and then on Monday, I believe, we return to very high/extreme fire danger in the region with high temps (well, high for December) high wind and fairly low humidity. I hope to get a lot done outside on the high fire danger day. I make a point of working outside on those days so I can watch the sky for smoke. I still haven't cleaned out all the garden debris from the fall garden but I am slowly making progress.

And, on a happy note, I picked two tomatoes today from the garage's tomato plants, and have 15 or 20 more that are beginning to break color. They are only small cherry tomatoes, but any fresh tomato in December, however small it might be, is a big treat.

Dawn

Dawn,
What kind of starter mix do you prefer for starting seed, do you mix your own or is there a ready mix you like? I can't remember what I used last year but it worked fine with probably 90% germination. On Thanksgiving I started some ornamental peppers with some Miracle Gro potting mix that Peg had in the greenhouse and am not impressed. First I had to dig small chunks of wood out of it, then it dries out too much even with the press and seal plastic wrap on the plastic starter cups. I've opened them up twice to give them a little drink and so far only have 3 seed germinated out of 44 and has been over 3 weeks.

This is one of my favorite photos that I use as a screen saver in late winter...

Keith

Happy early birthday to Tim! Steve's birthday was just on the 16th.

No signs of seeds out in the stores here yet, of course. I need to scout out possible places for buying seeds & seed starting supplies, along with potting soil. Once January arrives, I'll have to venture off of my usual (but rarely traveled) path and see what I can find.

A chilly Saturday, stuck inside ramble...

Diane

Oh, I know well what it's like to have a Xmas birthday in the family. My mother's is the 24th, and now my daughter's significant other's is the 23rd. I always go out of my way to make sure they get separate celebrations and gifts because others tend to do a "combo" gift and it seems unfair to me.

I was gonna mention the Wiccan celebrations but wasn't sure whether I should or not. Some of the folks on the WS'ing forum celebrate it by starting their winter sown seeds that night, and dancing in the nude at midnight. Not me!!! See link.

Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: Winter Solstice/Winter Sowing

There are other signs of spring as well, Dawn. Hobby Lobby has already brought out the outdoor and garden decorations like gazing balls and garden hooks and so forth. Of course they start everything months ahead and had the Christmas stock on the shelves in the middle of summer!

I can relate to the Christmas birthday thing, too. Mine is tomorrow, the 19th, my niece's is the 20th, my uncle's is Christmas Day, and a couple of other family members have birthdays in the week of Christmas too. It's such a busy time that it is hard to squeeze those birthdays in with everything else that's going on. Happy birthday to Tim!

Suzie

Keith,

I use whatever I can find, and I don't usually mix my own seeds-tarting mix although it would be so very easy to do so.

I like ProMix the best, but it is increasingly hard to find. I think Carol found it somewhere last year. I use Jiffy Mix or any other bagged seed-starting mix that I can find. Sometimes, I'll use the plain old Miracle Grow potting soil (not the moisture contol formula and not the organic one, and I've never had much of a problem with it although some people have had some the last couple of years that had huge chunky bark stuff in it that was too large for seed starting. I'll probably look in the nurseries and see what they have in the next week or two, and if I see anything I like, I'll let y'all know what it is.

Diane,

Oooh! Happy Birthday to Steve! How is the Man Who Wanted To Fly? All recovered or still some nagging pain or other issues?

Susan,

I had an uncle whose birthday was Christmas Eve but he never seemed to mind having a holiday birthday.
My favorite part of the Winter Solstice is that the amount of daylight begins increasing daily, even though it is in such small increments that we hardly notice it at first. As the darkness hits earlier and earlier each night in December prior to the solstice, I am constantly caught by surprise. I'll look outside and grumble "It's dark already?" and run outside to close up the doors to the two chicken coops.

I won't be celebrating by dancing in any shape, form or fashion, but I might wintersow a few flowers.

Suzie,

That's a great point about Hobby Lobby. We were in the Ardmore one on Tuesday and they already had quite a lot of spring merchandise on the shelves.

I would have stayed in there and looked at it for a while, but Tim thought we should walk into the store, find and purchase what we came in there to get, and then leave. What kind of shopping is that?

If I'd been by myself or with another woman, I'd have spent another hour looking at the spring merchandise. I did sneak away from the checkout line for a minute (leaving Tim there to pay for the stuff) to see what they had in the silk flower area of the store, but then they opened a new register and the shorter lines started moving and I had to scamper back over there so Tim wouldn't be tempted to leave me.

Men sure can take all the fun out of shopping. His method may be more efficient, but mine is more fun!

Dawn

I was going to try to winter sow some seeds this year, I had never done it before, but it looked like big fun. Thanks for posting the link to that site, it is very helpful. I have not been in the stores around here in a while. I didn't think anything would be out right now. I am curious and going to have to go and look. It is hard to believe it is time to buy seed sowing stuff! But looking at the calendar, I guess it is!

Geesh time flies!

Ezzirah, it is something to do during the winter months at least. Helps to alleviate those winter doldrums.

Dawn, I definitely do a countdown to Winter Solstice with that thought in mind - the days are getting longer. I don't usually notice a sigifnicant lengthening until the latter part of January, though. But, at least it is coming. During the Fall Equinox, I am already thinking about Winter Solstice, LOL!

It seems logical that the stores are already, or soon will be, putting out their garden stuff. More people are gardening for one thing. And another major fact, IMHO, is that more people are doing online shopping. The stores have to be competitive, and one of the ways they do that, is by stocking their garden seeds and supplies increasingly early now. Online nurseries and seed companies have already, for the most part, begun marketing their 2011 seeds, some a month or so ago.

On another note OT, if you look at the Wintersowing Forum, or the Wintersowing website, you can get some free tomato seeds from the moderator. You can get 6 packets free, and for additional $5 increments you can get more. There are several heirlooms mentioned, so pretty good list. One I'd like to know about is Rio Fuego (Rio means river or fluid, and Fuego means fire, so interpret how you want). It is a determinate for sauces and for salads, with high sugar content. Would that be a problem for canning cauces?

Anyway, in the OKC area, you can get Promix from American Plant Products. I would imagine, Dawn, that you can just use straight fine milled sphaghnum peat, and maybe add some perlite to it, too, for own seed starting mix, no?

Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: Free Tomato Seeds at Wintersowing.org

Keith I have used and tried most of the mixes I can buy around here. Both retail and commercial mixes. I will add my .02 cents for what it is worth. Most of the mixes are either hard to find or have been changed. I know the 3 nursery/greenhouse growers I know and buy from are experiencing the same things. In the last 2-3 years all the growers have changed what they had used for several years and most still haven't found a product they are 100% happy with. I bought both a commercial seed starting and also a potting mix from a local nursery for several years with great results. Both were Sunshine products. Then the company changed both formulations and neither of the new mixes worked well. I've used Miracle Gro in the past with good results. The last 2 years the mixes haven't been consistent and the results fair to poor. I like the Pro mix BX for potting up seedlings but I can't find it around here and shipping is costly. I never used it that much as a germination medium. I have germinated a few seeds in it with good results. The BX is a little coarser. The Pro Mix germination mix is PGX. But BX was all that was ever available here. The best results I've had with a germination mix the last 2 years that is ready available retail is Jiffy Mix. Had good germination using it last year. This year I plan on using mainly BM2 from Berger for germination and a Ball potting soil mix I will get from a local greenhouse that starts lots of plants. And that is subject to change if the greenhouse owner finds something he feels will work better. I will use Jiffy Mix if I need something quick for some reason. The problems with the commercial mixes and buying from a nursery or greenhouse is you have to buy at least the bigger bags or bales usually. That works well for me as many as I start and pot up but not for a grower only starting a small amount of seeds. And like I said even the commercial mixes aren't as consistent as they used to be and the companies seem to keep changing formulations. Some of it is due to the increasing costs of some ingredients in the mixes. In summary I hate to recommend anything. Just as soon as I do something changes. I know till Miracle Gro addresses their quality and consistency issues I will use something else. The list of some other options if you can find them in you area are Fafard mixes, Metro Mix products(360 is one of their germination mixes I've used in the past with good results. Not available around here now.). Jay

As for the BD's my younger sister's is the 29th and mine Jan 4th so both are very close to Christmas. Jay

Thanks Jay and Dawn,
I'll start looking for the Pro mix and Jiffy mix, when I googled them they are both supposed to be available at Lowes and Westlake.

Keith

The Akin's Market in Springfield is carrying seeds from Botanical Interests now. When I went to Akin's website and looked at store locations, I noticed they are mostly located in Oklahoma so I thought I'd mention it here. They had a nice selection of mostly veggies and herbs.

Keith,

Carol and I get our ProMix at Estes Chemical. If you walk in and go back to the left, ask for Jeff. He will take very good care of you. Tell him the blonde in Harrah sent you.

Seedmama

You know Jay, I once thought I might be able to bring you ProMix on a trip to the Panhandle, but after my last trip in June, I haven't been back. We were in the wide open cutting down musk thistle when we saw a storm on the horizon. We got back to my cousin's house in plenty of time to reach the basement before the tornado went straight overhead. But then we found out the flooding in Perryton was so bad the emergency vehicles were floating down the main strip. And the neighbor's power was off long enough for him to lose temperature on 10,000 gallons of milk. With that kind of excitement, I haven't been jumping up and down raising my hand to go back. My turn is coming though, and sooner or later I'll have to come.

Keith, if you go to Estes, do be sure to mention me to Jeff. It's not because you'll get special treatment or pricing. It's because they are always on the fence about whether they are going to continue to carry it, and they have the best prices in town. I always tell them about my "garden club" and how I send everybody to Estes. We need to let them know there is a demand so they'll keep carrying it.

For once I will not be trying to find ProMix. I bought 15 bags last year.

Susan, When I make my own seed-starting soil-less mix, I normally use equal parts of either coir or sphagnum peat moss, vermiculite and perlite. It probably would work equally well with just coir or peat moss and perlite. When I use peat moss, I normally add a small amount of lime to counteract the acidity of the peat moss.

It is always such a relief to me to see seed racks and seed-starting supplies arrive at the stores as it is just a tiny reminder that planting time will be here before we know it. This year our local Home Depot kept seeds and other gardening supplies in the stores much, much deeper into late fall than they normally do. On the ridiculous side of the equation, though, our local stores kept "fall tomatoes" and 4" and 6" pots in stores as late as November, and I'm not sure who that thought would be buying tomato plants after the first frosts had already occurred. (They did cover up the tomato plants and keep them from freezing in October which is an improvement over what they did last February when they let them freeze.)

I normally have all my seeds ordered and on hand before most of the seed catalogs hit the mailboxes because, along with the increased interest in gardening, we're seeing a longer waiting period for folks who don't order seeds until January or February.

One thing local stores do that really irritates me is that some of them, including Lowe's and Wal-Mart, often either start out with their seed racks outside in the enclosed "garden center" area or they move them out there after the seed racks have been inside for a month or two. I never buy seeds off racks that have been sitting outdoors and exposed to all the outdoor fluctuations in temperature and humidity.

A higher sugar content in a given tomato variety is not an issue in and of itself when you are canning tomatoes. What is important is the pH so with some tomatoes that are lower in acidity than the average tomato, you might have an issue. However, the lower-acidity varieties aren't generally used for canning and I believe all tested and approved "safe" recipes include something (vinegar, lime juice, lemon juice, or citric acid) to ensure canned tomatoes are in the proper pH range.

Jay, Isn't it sad that soil-less mixes have fallen so far in quality the last few years? It is pathetic that profit is more important than producing a quality product. I gladly pay more for a high-quality seed-starting mix when I find one, but just try finding one now that matches the quality of what was available a decade (or two) ago.

Happy Birthday to both you and your sister.

Christie, I am in far southern OK (almost in Texas) and I have to drive south about 60-70 miles (or farther) down to the D-FW metro area to find Botanical Interests seeds on the seed racks, which is frustrating. About the only seeds sold in stores around me are either Burpee, Ferry-Morse or Wal-Mart's or Target's own lines of seed. I normally just order the BI seeds I want from their website or catalog (new last year and just as beautiful as their seed packets).

Seedmama, I am so jealous that y'all have a source there. We have very few choices here but considering how rural our area is, that's not surprising.

Carol, So, now you've developed a "Pro-mix problem" to go along with your "seed problem"? I'm going to assume these were not really humongous bags?

Dawn

Boy, I went into the stores and it was barren! Crickets chirping and everything! Maybe come January!

I usually spend a few extra bucks and get my seed starting mixes (I just use regular potting mix of the better variety, like Schultz, Scott's, whatever) at Horn's, because they always have bags in the back. This year, it has been suggested that I use Al's 5:1:1 mix for seed starting, and I will try that, too.

This spring, I gotta figure out how to get about 4 3 cf bags of pine bark fines, a 2-3 cf bag of peat moss, and a 4 cf bag of perlite, into the back of my tiny little Mazda hatchback. It's quite a drive out to APP, and I don't really want to make more than 1 trip. I may engage my daughter's significant other in the endeavor. He can follow me so I can get it loaded between his SUV and my Mazda. Ah, the trials and tribulations of old women gardeners.

Right now, I do have a 3cf bag of pine bark fines, some peat and perlite, so I can at least get started. I won't be planting tomato seeds, tropicals, or tender annuals yet anyway.

I saw on the WS website, that some people are using the grape boxes from the grocer as containers. Lay several of them end to end on the ground (put holes in the bottom of the boxes before filling with dirt). Plant and label the boxes. Lay tomato cages - the smaller ones - over the top of the boxes, end to end and stacked loosely like you would see them at the store, only they're on their sides, and then put plastic over the tops held down at the ends and the sides with bricks or heavy objects. Pretty good idea that I may use as well. Some people use hardware cloth bent in an arch of the tops and cover those. You could use CRW probably, too. You would need to bury the broad ends of the wire on either side of the box, though, and hold it in place by putting bricks or something around them to keep them in place. The ideas just surprise me every year when I look at them.

I have used the waxed boxes that fruit and veggies come in to the grocer and put my styrofoam or other cups inside these and cover the box with plastic film of some kind, too.

Susan

I was in Home Depot this morning and found the Jiffy Mix 10qt for $3.50. I think I'll like it as it is light and fluffy compared to the MiracleGro mix. The bag of MG probably weighed 5 times what the Jiffy bag weighs.

When I asked about garden seed they said probably not until the end of January or February. I guess these local stores just don't think us 'City Hicks' need garden seed as soon as you 'Country Hicks'.

Keith

Seedmama,
You mentioned your cousins neighbor losing temp on his milk. His neighbor wasn't a Cowan was he? I'm asking as I know they have a dairy in the Balko area. Their son and DIL owned the Watonga Cheese Factory when the spin off storm from Tropical storm Erin destroyed the building. They have rebuilt it in Perryton, TX. Just opened in Sept. I rode with my sister to Hugoton this morning and bought some of their cheese while their. They are using the original recipes and it can't be beat if a person likes good cheese. They have opened a retail store in Watonga and an outlet in OKC. I talked to Brandi today and told her we would like to have it in Guymon. She said they were working on it and it should be soon. Kinda off topic but when I read your post made me think about it. And I'm sure a few others like good cheese and food like I do. Jay

Here is a link that might be useful: Watonga Cheese Factory

Jay, Funny you should mention that company since I was just reading about them a couple of weeks ago.

Jay,
No, his neighbor isn't a Cowan. I get really turned around out there with so few landmarks, but I think my cousin lives south then a bit west of Perryton, toward Spearman.
I was unaware the Watonga Cheese factory had reopened. I'll be sure to let Mom know. There was a time when we would drive all the way from Eastern Oklahoma County to Watonga to get cheese. She was so pleased when the retail outlet opened in NW OKC, because although it was far, it was closer than Watonga. Thanks for letting us know. I think I'll go get her some for Christmas.

Carol in the 60's, 70's and early 80's on any trip to OKC we made sure we left the city early enough to be in Watonga and buy cheese before they closed. Then in the 90's I believe they sold and they changed the recipes and the cheese wasn't as good. When the Cowans bought it they went back to using the old recipes and it is the best again. It is all natural. And also they only use milk from his Dad's dairy I understand and he raises all the feed they eat so you know what you are eating so to speak.

Seedmama the cheese is great again now. The curds are great also. A cafe' in Tyrone OK sells fired cheese curds. I haven't tried any but supposed to be great also. The store in Hugoton didn't have the aged Cheddar I like so I ordered some today. Did get curds, longhorn and mild cheddar and a few other varieties.

OK I just thought your cousin might live around Balko. I started to school in Perryton. Have always liked that area. Jay

Jay, I'm sending my husband to the OKC outlet today after work, to get some for Mom and Dad. How often do we get to really surprise someone these days! Cool!

Our family farm is in Balko. When my grandfather died in the mid 40's they moved, house and all, to a lot in Perryton. My dad's older brothers continued to farm the land. One of his brothers lived his entire life in the basement that was an extension of the initial homesteading dugout.

Jay, Al remembers having the cheese when we lived in Norman, but neither of us can remember where we bought it. Maybe it was just in our travels around the state. He remembered the brand, so that is why we were reading about it.

Keith, I think you must have your own 'pig' farm from all the cute ones you post on the forum. LOL

Dawn, When I can't find Pro-Mix, I use Jiffy Mix and find it to be the best. I have only found it in those small bags tho, and it takes a lot of those. As for the ProMix, what I bought is not bales, but it is in large bags, maybe 40 pounds. I also bought a 'little' extra thinking Jay was going to need a couple, but he didn't get to make his trip last year. I don't think it will change much in those plastic bags, so I will use it till its gone. I do a lot of my starts in soil blocks and Jiffy and ProMix are the only thing that I have ever found that work well. I do wintersowing in the regular potting soil that I can buy at Lowes, but for those things I start inside, I get the good stuff. It's too much work and expense not to use the best I can find. Even for wintersowing, I have found that MG is not a good choice because it has such huge pieces of wood in it and after a few rains all of that floats to the top of the container. If I am filling a large container to put a strong healthy transplant into, the wood chips are fine, but they don't work well for seeds.

I blame Seedmama for my ProMix addiction, Jay for my seed addition, and Dawn for my 'plant it all' addiction. I am still experiencing severe symptoms this year, altough I made the pledge to do better. I have only ordered seeds from Totally Tomatoes and Willhite....of course, I guess I have to count the okra I ordered from George, the seed I got from Lynn, and the 'future' shipment I know I will get from Jay, the Kansas super tomato grower. I guess I still have a problem.