If you have not read the below link please do and if you still have questions, I am sure Josh can answer.

Here is a link that might be useful: 5-1-1 conversation on GW

i have read the whole forum on it and watched the video and what i got from the video is that josh was only going to use the soil he made for one year since the soil with the turface is expected to last longer. i am assuming that is his reasoning in the video. correct me if i am wrong?
i have never container grown anything and i have four pepper plants in pots that are water retentive, i really want to save them. but i am struggling to find a solution to get a potting soil that does not hold water.

Sorry for asking a lot of questions. I just want to make sure I get it right the first time as materials are expensive.

Steven,
I ran out of Turface this year, so I didn't use any in this year's mix (or the video).
Even with the Turface included, I only use this 5-1-1 mix for one growing season. However,
you *could* use the mix longer - for instance, if you plant a fern in a large container,
you could leave it in this mix for 2 - 3 years. It is quite durable...but most of us choose
to just dump it out into our raised beds or garden to improve the soil.

The original 5-1-1 mix is this:
5 parts Pine or Fir bark.
1 part peat moss
1 part Perlite
______________________________________________

Why do I substitute "potting mix" for peat moss?
*Most* potting mixes are peat-based, and so I just use what's available.

Josh

makes since. thank you for clearing it up. how much difference will potting mix make in the formula as i have plenty of it? you said no reed or sedge peat. how can you tell if it is sedge or reed peat?

the reason i ask is that i have a 4 cuft bale of peat moss i bought from my locale nursery. i will use it if i can. this stuff is brown, dry, powdery.

pure canadian spaghnum peat moss is what i got.

Sphagnum peat moss is what you want, and since you have it, use it. It only makes up about 15 percent of the mix, it doesn't cause excess water retention. On the contrary, you probably will need to water more often. This is my second year using it for all my vegetables and flowering annuals. We broke records for rainfall last year but I never had a problem with soggy soil. It's great stuff.

Thank you

Interesting topic. Once you choose a soil, you have to stick to it - for a while anyway. I did some replanting and went with a more 'woody' compost. Partly because of recommendations around here.

My natural inclination is to like rich, black soil. I have been experimenting with clayish loam that is deep and dark to see what happens with one plant. I decided to put earthworms in there as well.

@ SgtPepper the one you added earthworms to is that in a pot or in ground? I was thinking of maybe trying that, adding to my pots but what concerns me if the worms lack natural food would they chomp on the roots of my plant?

Mark,
I've heard (can't remember where) that worms eat the organisms that eat the decaying organic matter...
not the organic matter directly. Regardless, worms wouldn't eat live roots, only dead organics.

Although I often use very gritty, inorganic mixes, at re-potting time I still find worms
hangin' out havin' a good old time.

Josh

Regular earthworms and night crawlers likely wont be able to live in a container. The soil will get too hot and they would have no way to burrow deeper to a cooler zone. Redworms like warm soil but then they also like very rich soil with a lot of decaying organic matter. Basically the like compost piles. But if you find a way to hold some type or worm in a container, that would probably be great for the plant.
Bruce

I hope the earthworm doesn't eat all the bonemeal I put in there! I guess it doesn't matter, it's an experimental pot. The plant itself is a tiddler and I am doubtful it could fruit this year anyway.

If the earthworm dies, it works out for the plant in the end. One thing about an earthworm, you can tell if your soil is too dry because they will come to the surface if their survival is threatened. But I would guess it would have to be REALLY dry for that to happen.

Earthworms don't eat bonemeal....
and bonemeal isn't a good container additive because it takes so long to become available
to the plant.

Josh

it says use lime, is it the hydrated lime or the dolomitic lime? i also have gypsum. how long will it take for the lime to affect the plants or the ph? you said optional for (crf) what is crf? is it ammonium sulfate? do i use a fish emulsion or can i use a tomato fert or a 15-30-15?

What you want is dolomitic lime.

Some people let the newly made 5-1-1 "cook" for 2 weeks by moistening and mixing it regularly. So, I am going to guess that the lime will have done its thing within a couple of weeks. But, there are many folks that don't wait at all and use it the same day they make it.

CRF = Controlled Release Fertilizer. A popular one is osmocote.

I got confused about what *isn't* in many fertilizers or the correct ratio, etc... So, went with the popular recommendation of Foliage Pro 9-3-6 that is supposed to have all the micro nutrients as well as the major ones.

Bonemeal no good for pots? But that's how another guy went about it. How about crushed calcium tablets that old people use for osteoporosis? Obviously that would have to break down quickly so it can be absorbed into a persons body. Crazy idea, but I have heard crazier ideas around here that seem to really work.

Dolomitic garden Lime. It costs $6 for 25 pounds...that bag will be around for years.
The lime phase reaction begins after two days and finishes around two weeks, as Tsheets said.
Because roots extend further in soils that are *initially* low in nutrients, there's no harm
in having a "lean" soil when re-potting. By the time the roots are really biting into the new
mix, the Calcium and Magnesium (Lime) will be available.

As far as Bonemeal...well, other folks do lots of unfounded things. No reason to emulate them ;-)
You'll find plenty of folks who use eggshells, despite the fact that there's no evidence for it efficacy -
but plenty of science against it. Lots of people still put a gravel layer at the bottom of the container
thinking that it will improve drainage...another horticultural Myth, and the sooner dead the better.

Josh

i can understand your reasoning here. as all the ingredients will hold water. the pine bark keep structure and hold a little water when wet. but will let it drain as well as the turface/perlite which is also a draining and aerating agent. the peat will hold the most water. not and not soo little as there are draining agents there to help with pwt.
i understand the science behind it. since i have a 25 pound bag of lime now. ill throw some on my lawn before the rains come this winter. too hot now it is hitting 107 yesterday.
i have some soil i planted bhuts in. it was a combination of topsoil, compost, composted cow manure. it was water retentive for the longest until the compost broke down and i added more. now it draines fast. not the best soil to use but it worked. there about foot and half high. now i am going to have to repot them in five gallon buckest as they are in two nursery tree pots.

i made a batch today. i used the 2lb coffee cans. five cans of shredded pine bark mulch sifted 1/2 in fines.
one can of peat
one can of course perlite
7tbs dolomitic lime
cfr ferterlizer.
tell me if i did anything wrong or can improve on the batch.

Sounds pretty good. Just mix the ingredients up good and plant your peppers. Should use about one tbl spoon of dolomitic lime per gallon of soil mix. I am not sure if you have 7 gallons total or not.
Bruce

I agree with Bruce, sounds pretty good.
Can you post a pic of the finished product, perhaps with a quarter for scale?
If you find the mix holds more moisture than you'd like, just add another part Perlite.

Josh

finally repotted my plants with the 5-1-1 mix. drains well add a little extra perlite for more drainage. watering every three or four days as i keep the plants under the back porch due to the extreme heat here in central texas.

peat and bark that i used also used course perlite all from local nursery.

here it all is before i mixed it up. it made about three gallons. i put 7 tbs lime in it. i hope it will be alright to the plants. four tbs too many.

The pine bark mulch needs to be screened and cleaned, by cleaned I mean the sap wood has to be removed best as possible or your plants will be in a world of hurt. Stunted is mostly what has happened for those who have not removed the sapwood as well as leaf discoloration mostly black and yellow then dropping off

Habjolokia is right. I see a lot of sap wood in that pine bark. It will shut your peppers down. I say this from experience. In addition to screening out the oversize pieces, you also want to screen out the "undersized" particles. Those less than 1/8" or so. It looks like you have a lot of micro particles in that mix as well. In fact, I think there is a lot less actual bark than what would normally be called a pine bark product. The 5-1-1 mix has some wiggle room but if you cut too many corners or the wrong ones, you will wind up with something that your peppers might not like.

I would look for a pine bark mix that looks more like this right out of the bag:

Also, for three gallons of mix, you probably wanted about half that much lime. I am not sure what over dosing of lime might do but what is normally recommended is about 1 tbl per gallon of mix.
Bruce

other than the nursery which sells the stuff i got, which is shredded pine bark mulch. were is a good place to get it. i live here in central texas and i have already tried walmart and kmart. the mix kinda resembles mg orchid mix. this is frustrating trying to find the right ingredients. the pine bark mulch i have here is loaded with pine bark sap. any suggestions.

Steven1032:
I feel for you. I looked for two years before I found it at my local Kmart. I would try some local nurseries. Other than that, I really don't know.
Bruce

If you are a fan of online ordering you can do a search for Orchid bark it's the same thing pine bark they only call it orchid bark because it's just marketed for orchids. It will not come too cheap though. 2cf bags closer to $20 you may find it for a bit less but not by much. Or the search continues. At HD I found a 2 cf bag of Pine Bark Nuggets they had large and small nuggets, I went with the large and should have went with the small. The large was a lot of work breaking down the nuggets to smaller sizes.

what was the name of the bag o nuggets at home depot that worked for you? "habjolokia"

It was an orange and white bag. Here is the link to that post, about 1/2 way down I have a pic of the bag contents of the bag, nugget sizes and sap/scrap wood then my broken down pieces. The mini nuggets were in a purple/blue bag same company name as the other bag.

Here is a link that might be useful: Pine Bark

habjolokia:
do you have a SKU or barcode number for that product (purple one)???
Bruce

Sorry I don't, I just picked up the large nugget bag. Wished I picked up the small nugget bag. Maybe next time I am there and if they still got it, will take a pic of the SKU

found a nursery that sells pine bark nuggets. i described what i needed and the lady said she knew what i wanted and will order it. hoping she can get it.

Good deal Steven1032. Glad you found a source. how much will they be charging you?
Bruce

I haven't found any around here, but, based on the description and the full-sized counterpart, I think the Pine bark mini-nuggets would be a good bet. All I've found in stock here are the regular nuggets which look much larger than what I was looking for.

Generally, and unfortunatly, the mini nuggets are also going to be too big. Even if you found mini nuggets in the 1/2" range (which you probably won't - I'd wager they will be more like 3/4"+), they are going to be predominatly that size. This really won't work. Example. Mix 20 ping pong balls (mini nuggets) with 1000 bb's (peat, perlite, soil, etc). What's going to happen? The bb's will fill in the available air space between the ping pong balls, and the ping pong balls take up too much space without retaining enough water and nutrients...it becomes....how do I say...inefficient.

What you want for a 5-1-1 is a ~range~ of particles with a ABSOLUTE MAX of 1/2". Particles of this size should only comprise a (small) fraction of the total mix. It needs to bind, it needs to have smaller particles as well - of course - without having too many small particles. Admittedly so, its a delicate dance, but once you figure it out...well, you get the point.

I just posted this in the other 5-1-1 thread. But this is what it should look like. This is a turface modified mix, note the absence of fine particulate and the desired range of bark.

PJ

Bruce, I was just reading your post in this thread. You mention screening out the particles less than 1/8". BE CAREFUL!! Remember you NEED at least some fraction of those particles in the 1/16" - 1/8" range for the mix to bind (and for retention). My mix calls for 1/2 part of bark in that range to be included, but that can be altered to increase the retention - if desired.

Also, I'm seeing quite a bit of large diameter particles in your mix...beware of the ping pong balls dude! Are you passing it through a 1/2" mesh? If your product is comprised of too high of a concentration of larger particles...you may have to add another intermediate level of screening...say 1/4" to ensure that your larger pieces comprise only a moderate fraction of the total mix.

Notice the amount of chips that are equal to or larger than your quarter? Quite a few, right? Notice mine. There are only a few pieces that are even half the size of the quarter. The more particles that you have in your mix that are similar, the better. You want to avoid too many large particles and too many small particles...the goldilocks zone is what your looking for....juuuuuust right.

PJ

damonkey007:
Yes. I used a 1/2" and then window screen this spring. But I have some very small hardware cloth (1/4 or 1/8") that I will make another sifter out of. The in between stuff is what I will keep. I can always add back a touch of the smaller waste if I think it is necessary. But then there is the 1 part of Peat/garden soil that will probably suffice for the smaller particles. I dont use turface as I cannot find a source and find that the 5-1-1 with bark-perlite-soil/peat works well for me. The perlite that I use is probably smaller than what is normally used also.
Bruce

I didn't have any luck finding pine bark fines here in Charleston, so after several weeks I just gave up. Everything I found was too large (3/4" or larger). I'm only using 5-1-1 for smallish indoor plants so I went over to PetSmart and picked up Repti Bark. That is an extremely expensive option($25 for 24 qts) if one is growing on a large scale, but for my little job the Repti Bark was perfect.

I'm on the lookout for someone who has a woodchipper so I can chop up the large stuff that's available here. Even the nurseries that claimed to have bark "fines" were selling the large nuggets and common shredded mulches. And Orchid Bark is more expensive than even Repti Bark.

I hope you find a solution. I'm at an impasse with the bark situation myself.

Yes, the one real problem is finding the stuff. I had basically given up and purchased 7 huge bales of Fafard52 for this season before I found the stuff at Kmart. I used the Fafard as part of my mix along with the bark and perlite. I still have some fafard left over but I have been using it as potting mix for indoor plants and it seems to work great for that.

Just keep your eyes open and you will probably find it when you are not even trying.
Bruce

Rarvn,
I found a nice pine bark mulch at Ace Hardware up here in NC, it's Ace's own brand and costs 3.99 for big bag. This is my first year container gardening so have tried quite a few different brands these last few months (I have over 50 5-10 gallon containers) and like this one the best. I strain it twice with a 1/2 inch screen it looks good to me, just a few wood pieces to pick out.

I also found Osmocote -plus that has the micro nutrients in it so don't have to add any lime, etc. Sounded good and easy to me as a slow released fertilizer.

Lorabell, I will have to check an Ace in my area. Thanks,
Bruce

Lorabell,
You still need to add the lime, it's not optional. In addition to providing calcium and magnesium, the lime adjusts the PH of the mix to a desirable level. Peat and pine are very acidic, if you do not add lime, your plants will suffer greatly - if they survive at all. 1 TBSP per gallon of finsihed mix - it's an absolute MUST.

PJ

Well dang, and here I thought my plants were looking so nice!
I've been doing an experiment this year, in-ground garden(20x80), I've 60 4x4 raised organic gardens, and add on this year, container gardening. I pretty much planted each plant, each variety in all three places and am keeping track of what does better in what medium.

So far the eggplants are kicking bu@@ in the containers as are cucumbers, the peppers are about at the same level as inground and raised, tomatoes a little slower, and summer squashs don't look so hot. Beans I just did the final picking and am happy with the results, and yesterday I finally got my sweet potatoes put out, (2 30 gallon containers)

So now that I know I was suppose to add lime, is it too late and what is the best way to add, and should I add it to the items that are doing great without it (eggplants) I literally have been picking several good sized fruit a day out of each pot for over a week now.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Well, if they've been in for long enough to develop fruit without problems, I'd say you've averted any major disaster - especially for those plants that prefer a bit more acidity. I wouldn't chance your luck in the future though. Pine can range in ph a bit - so you probably dodged a bullet with a higher ph batch. /Shrug.

You ~can~ add lime after the fact, but its certainly not the prefered method. You'll get better dispersment if you disolve it in water first - then apply as a solution - as opposed to sprinkling on top. That being said, its a crap shoot to determine how much you'll need/how much will take/how it will affect the plants - if your plants are doing ok, you may just want to leave them be. But like I said, don't chance it in the future. Lime is the cheapest part of a 5-1-1, and the application is the least amount of work of any step in the process. Just add it.

PJ

The container garden I'm attempting to hide my walmart free buckets.

Naga's doing pretty good for me not getting them seeded until almost the first of May.

Apparently 5-1-1 is forgiving as I forgot the lime and I let the grandbabies water the containers...sometimes they drownd them, sometimes a little tinkle.