You may have two palms mixed up. Sabal Miner is a slow shrub type palm that may be able to withstand -10 but it would need protection. Sabal Palmetto is a close realative that is also slow growing but is not as cold hardy. It would not make it up here without a grenhouse or SERIOUS protection. By that I mean something heated. The most it could take (for breif periods) is about 18 degrees. The most cold hardy is Needle Palm. You can do a google search ot get details but it is easily the most cold hardy. I have two in the ground. This winter will be my first attempt at overwinterin them.

The problem with Sabals is that most are very..very..very slow growing (even in Florida!). The cold hardiest, S. minor, is the sloooooowest growing plant I have ever seen. S. louisiana is supposed to be faster growing (along with S. birmingham) but still relatively slow and I do think that zone 5 will be too cold for them in the long run. (Forget about Sabal palmetto, it's not hardy enough for zone 5 in the long run.) My favorite sabal is Sabal texana (very robust--and I think fast--for a Sabal), but again, I think it will have a problem in a zone 5. Your best bet (if you're compelled to try an outdoor palm with a trunk) is Trachycarpus. If you had a protected microclimate by the side of your house, mulched, etc., you might be able to do something with T. fortunei, T. wagnerianus, or T. martianus. You can also get them to be quite sizeable in a container if you can protect in a sheltered spot over winter. Good luck!:)

There is some hardiness variation in Sabal palmetto. After 27 years of observing one particular specimen in Florence, Alabama I would say it is hardy into the single digits with minimal leaf burn. Defoliation of 25% or more occurs below 0 F with 75% defoliation at -8 F. However, this was for a plant under 6 feet tall.
Sabal "Birmingham" can be trunk hardy to -3 F but there has been some reported variations in hardiness.

T. martianus is a beatiful palm.. They have one at the UC Berkeley botanical gardens.. IMO much better looking than fortunei..

Steve, where in Florence is the plant? I am in Florence everyday at UNA, I dont believe I have seen it before.

Problem is, there is a BIG differance between Florence Alabama and a Zone 5.
Usually when I watch the D-IAA Championships in football, it is a little cold there, while it is teens here in Zone 5.
No way ANY Sabal lives in Zone 5 even with protection.

Orchiddude,
It's at the entrance of Polynesian Village Apartments.

Here is a picture of it taken last year. Three different years of temperatures below zero when it was small stunted it's growth. It has never received any fertilizer, water, or cold protection.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sabl palmetto in Florence, Alabama

Thanks all the info guys!! How do I create a protected microclimate?

The TyTy nersury has the windmill palm rated cold hardy to zone 6. Is this true? If it is true then I should be able to strech that into my zone. I'm in zone 5 but I'm very close to the border of zone 6.

tytyga.com/palms-new/pg09-northernwindmill.html

Let's just say the TyTy website is being... ah... creative with the truth. In reality, windmill palms (Trachycarpus fortunei) are marginal, at best, in zone 7. They can be grown in the warmer parts of zone 6 in a VERY sheltered location and/or with extensive protection. Zone 7b is probably the coldest zone where they can be considered long-term hardy without protection, and even there a hard freeze will probably wipe them out every 25 years or so.

That said, I know of several people in the Washington, DC suburbs (zone 7a/b) who have been growing windmill palms for several years without protection. I have a few small ones myself that have been doing well. However, we fully expect that a winter like (I think) 1993-1994, when we had temperatures well below zero and extended periods below freezing, will wipe out our palms. In our area these winters come about every 15 years or so.

An interesting site is this one where a guy in zone 7 has been growing palms. He had planted sabal palmettos, one of them weathered -6F at one year old and then transplantation at -3F three years later. Two others took -3F but it stunted all of their growth patterns and they're all the size of about a 5 year palmetto at 20 years old. If there's any question as to how hardy these palmetto's can be, then it has all be proven right here. He has a large 20 year old palmetto growing in zone 7 and wraps it only in christmas lights. They get to the single digits in farenheit every year and sometimes below zero.

heres the site

http://ourworld.cs.com/hbrahea333/sabalmistakes1.html

Thanks for the info! Wow... in my area those winters come about every year :-/

I think I might need plant a couple needle palms and look for some trunk palms that do well in containers.

Oiltown - very good information about the Sabal palms. That 20 year Sabal is a very nice palm! I'm starting to see that it's going to be quite a stretch to expect a palm to do well up here in zone 5.

Anyone know if there is anything similar to a palm that might be more cold hardy?

Try a yucca. Go to rarepalmseeds.com and look at the many different variations. The yucca rostrata, faxoniana, thompsoniana, and brevifolia are the best bet for a trunking yucca. There is a guy on another forum i visit that has grown a couple of those in Idaho(zone 5) with no protection for awhile. The biggest problem you would have is protecting them from rot. Cover them and keep them dry. They will take considerable cold as long as they're dry.

Try Musa Basjoo bananas, cold hardy to -20. You just cut them down before a frost, mulch them, and they should come back the next year like aperenial. Very large and Fast growing. You could get 8-10 feet in one summer.

If you're looking for a trunking palm, your best bet is a windmill palm, which are supposed to be able to reliably recover from temperatures in the negative single digits, although you may lose all foliage. I planted one last fall at the end of September in zone 6, and it lost probably 6O% of its foliage when we hit an unexpected 4F early one morning. This year it recovered even though it probably wasn't established nearly as much as it should've been. As for palm-like plants, Andy is right. Musa Basjoo is a great choice and is fun to grow. Yucca are also a good choice. This year I'm trying Yucca Recurvifolia, which is very tropical looking, trunking and relatively fast growing, but is only cold hardy rated to 6b, and is probably marginal here in Southeast Michigan by the water. Your location in Michigan can make all the difference. Finally, don't be so reserved about the Needle Palm. They supposedly grow to 10 feet tall, although probably even up to 6 feet or taller here in Michigan, and look more tropical up close than you might think. I seen a couple of mature Needles in Virginia Beach, and I think they're more attractive than sabals, because they hold their palmate leaf shape better.

oiltown: I have some yucca growing but they don't trunk. I'm definitly going to be picking up a rostrata! I tried to search for info abotu the other trunking yuccas but the hardiness info was all over the place (e.g. some say 7b and other say 6) - do any of you have any first hand knowledge of trunking yucca?

Andy: Bananas are very cool plants... I'm growing a variety of them in containers. I tried wintering my basjoos outside last winter but I lost all of them. I mulched them well but I think they just got too much moisture and rotted. I plan on trying it again next winter but this time I'm going to cover the whole mulch pile with plastic to keep all the moisture out.

palmpunk: I'll probably still try a windmill palm... just to satisfy my own curiosity. I might end up having to work hard to get it through a zone 5 winter but it's worth a shot. I looked at pics of the Recurvifolia but I didn't see any with a trunk - does this have a trunk? I have plenty of mature (30 years old) adams needle yucca to share if you'd like? I've also decided that I'll be adding the needle palm to my lanscaping next spring. Are these completely hardy in zone 5 or do they need to be protected?

Thank all of you for the help!
SF

Slfairless-What part of Michigan, more specifically what city do you live in? I live in the Downriver area south of Detroit. Yes, Recurvifolia does trunk, and grows to about 6 feet, but the trunk isn't really visible, because it's covered with dead leaves and covered up by suckers when they get that big. I seen several in Virginia Beach, a great place to visit if you're looking for hardy tropical plants. Mine are about 3 feet tall and wide, but don't have a trunk yet, nor do they have suckers. As far as needle palm hardiness, I'm not sure if they're completely hardy in zone 5, but from what I understand, they're fully hardy in zone 6, down to at least -10. However, I have heard it's possible for them to get bud rot in wet winters, like we have here in Michigan. This shouldn't be too much of a concern, because needle palms usually have several small plants to one specimen, as they are clumpers.

Small world... I'm in Holly, which is north of pontiac and south of flint. I think next summer is going to be quite interesting with all the new plants I'm planning on trying out :)

I have another random question for you; my whole life I've known I'm in zone 5. Everything I've ever seens tells me I live in zone 5... except the national arbor day foundation website. What gives?

Here is a link that might be useful: Arborday Zone Map

I would think Holly is zone 5B, I'll bet in the winter you are typically about 5 degrees cooler than the city

The Arborday zone map is probably the most current, and therefore is taking the recent unusually warm winters of the past 15 years into account, whether they're due to global warming (the most probable explanation), or a natural warming cycle that the planet goes through. I agree with Andy, you most likely are in zone 5, as the further inland you go away from the water and the further north you go, the colder winters can be. In the Cadillac area up north, I believe they are a zone 4.

Yes Michigan is cold but it's a big state. The diffirence between Detroit and Cadillac is like the diffirence between Fort Lauderdale and Daytona Beach.

I live in Holly but work down in Warren (Tech Center) and I notice a huge difference between the two areas. Every spring I still have a foot of snow in my yard and I head down to work to see green grass and leaves growing on trees. It's crazy how big the difference can be over such a short area.

Is there a different zone map for trees? I wonder if the national arbor day is showing a zone map specific for trees because I am definitely zone 5.

That map probably isn't detailed enough. The USDA map is much more detailed, but isn't as current. Isn't it strange how much of a difference in climate Michigan has? We have a place in Houghton Lake, and daytime highs are almost always 10 degrees different than down here between Detoit and Monroe. Last week they got frost up there, while down here, we still haven't gone below 50 for nighttime lows.

Yes, it is pretty crazy but if you think about, lay Michigan on the east cost and it would probably cover Alabama up to NY. The part that really kills me about Michigan weather is the 75 one day and 20 the next type stuff.

PalmPunk-
Where in Houghton Lake is your place? My aunt has a place right between Higgins and Houghton lake on Lansing Road.

Another Michigan/Great Lakes tid bit. There's more US shorline on the great lakes than the Atlantic.

I havent had the chance to read everything here as of yet, but according to the USDA zone map, I am in 6b and live in Sterling Hts. Mi. The little bit of s/e Michigan that has the "extra" 5 degrees.

It's the Urban Island... all that concrete. I'm out on Holly on 4 acres where there are still a bunch of trees to absorb the 'extra' 5 degrees.

Pyratejim-
I/m the same way, I'm in Livonia but I'm only about 3 miles due west of Detroit Proper. All of those city lights and heated buildings keep me in a solid 6b.

Andy-We're located on the North Bay on Houghton Lake Drive.

Hi everyone, I live in a USDA 5a, (canada z4a) and I have overwintered, sabal minors, musa basjoo , and livistona chinesis, with only a bag of leaves. All the small ones I have been over wintered, the big one were added to the collection since I had great success, next year will look ever better. Here is the link........... http://community.webshots.com/user/Ottawa_hardy_tropicals?vhost=community

These are very interesting observations on cold hardyness.One thing I have found out is time the palm has to endure these temperatures is a factor. I believe this is one reason there are different reports of how low of temperatures a palm can take.

Holly, Mi.! My friend owns the Holly Hotel. Ever been?Excellent food.

I would say Sabal Palmetto is hardy to much lower than 18 degrees, especially once established. We have lots of mature trees growing here, many without any protection. We had a low here in Enterprise of -1 degree back in 1985. There were a couple of other single-digit lows the next few nights, I think.

hi everyone,....sabal can survive with very little protection,needle palms, and livistona chinesis, as well...... check out www.webshots.com type in ottawa_hardy_tropicals. Its worth a check. Oh I am also a beginner gardener., any questions email me at bananaboy_excon@hotmail.com

Nice pics ottawa basjoo...How long have your Sabal Minors been in the ground?? do you just mulch with leaves and nothing else? I see the snow has nearly covered the whole Sabal..do you plan on brushing the snow off when it starts to melt or do they seem to not be affected by the onslaught of a pile of melting and re-freezing snow? I will be putting in some Minors,needles and a couple windmills whenever spring returns.