Thanks Moni. That's a really good tip!

George

Moni
That's a plan! The only way I know to kill out Burmuda is to either Round Up it, or smother it to death.
Fall is a good time to begin planning for next spring's garden.
My motto is,"He who starts a garden in Bermuda, has a fool for a gardener." Seriously, it will be trouble from there on out. Burmuda and veggie or flower gardens just don't mix. My friend calls it 'strangle grass'.

Barbara

You better keep it under mulch 24/7! I 'killed' a small patch in front of the garden gate to where it was completely yellow and brown, not a sign of life. The next spring the blasted stuff was back with a vengeance. It was lush and looks like I had fertilized it.....so now I am just trying to keep it out of the edges of the garden and flower beds.

I do hate that grass.

I use the lasagna method to and never have to til at all.

Great suggestions, Moni.

Y'all don't even want to get me started on bermuda grass. I think it is a whole lot easier to remove bermuda grass from sandy soil than from clay (and I feel qualified to say that since I have a lot of clay and a little sand).

I do think the careful removal of bermuda grass is the key to success with any kind of garden...lasanga or not. Of course, once you remove the bermuda, you have to keep after it or it will come back.

Every year I see people here rototill and plant, ofen in the same day. Within 6-8 weeks the bermuda grass and weeds are back. Within 3 months the bermuda has completely taken back the garden. They'll do the same thing year after year after year. Is it any wonder that those people get discouraged and give up gardening? They'll tell me it is because the 'bermuda grass took over' the garden, but the real problem is that they didn't really rid the garden of the bermuda to begin with.

We're enlarging the garden a great deal for next year, and I've been working on getting rid of some of the existing bermuda grass in that area since June.

I mulch heavily like Glenda does and at least the bermuda that creeps under the fence and into the mulch is easier to remove than the grass that is springing up in dense clay.

Dawn

I have successfully killed bermuda the way I described above. Even if I don't plant veggies, I do manage to kill the Bermuda before putting in flower areas.

Look here for pictures, where Bermuda was before planing:
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and now, my present yard:

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Moni,

Your yard always looks so nice.

I have successfully removed bermuda the same way you have, but it is relentless about trying to come back in full sun areas around the veggie garden. Every year, though, I do have less and less trouble with it in the veggie garden. Still, I think if I 'ignored' the veggie garden for a month or two, the bermuda would be back in a heartbeat.

In our yard, I am winning the war by shading it out. As our little trees and shrubs turn into bigger trees and shrubs that make more shade, I find the bermuda retreating instead of advancing. In another ten years, we ought to have heavy enough shade on all four sides of the house that bermuda cannot survive. I am looking forward to that day!

Dawn

I am a true believer in digging the roots out. ALL of them! and if you really missed one, dig it out as soon as it shows it's ugly head. LOL

Moni

I do a lot the same as all of you. Last fall I had some in the area where I planned to plant some tomatoes this spring. I did it like the lawn care people who cleared it off a baseball infield here did. They sprayed with Roud up 3 times 4 days a part. Then waited a week and removed the old grass and seeded new grass. Can't remember what type. And no Bermuda this year. I did the same except I just started piling on grass clippings and mulch a week after my 3rd spraying. Not a sprig this year. But did have some I've mentioned before come up from seeds where I stored some on the ends this year. Haven't seen any new sprigs in over a month so hopefully have it under control. It is like bind weed. Don't turn your back or you are in trouble. Jay

Moni and Jay,

I believe in digging it all out too, but it is not always possible if you have very thick, heavy, dense clay or very rocky soil.

In our dense, compacted clay the only way to get out all the bermuda is with a backhoe or bulldozer, and that is not guaranteed. Even a dozer can't penetrate the clay in some parts of our yard. The guy who put in our driveway tried to do some ground leveling near our garage and told us our clay was too dense and too compacted and that he couldn't 'scrape' it down any lower to level it with his blade. (We were extremely frustrated.) The guy who put in our septic system had to call in a guy with a much bigger and stronger dozer/backhoe to dig the lagoon because his equipment couldn't handle our clay. When I told him I didn't know there was clay that a large dozer couldn't handle, he laughed and told me I was in for a rude awakening and a new learning experience. (He was right!) So, if these guys with big equipment cannot penetrate this stuff, you can imagine what it is like to try to do it by hand. It it like trying to dig up concrete by hand. You can't do it. When I say we have dense red clay, I mean that it is really dense! Before I started trying to dig in the clay here, I foolishly thought that clay was clay. I'd had black clay in Texas and I thought it was bad, but it was pretty easy (compared to what we have now) to dig out the bermuda. I am older and wiser now.

If we'd known how bad the dense red clay was here, we would have had a big dozer scrape off the top 6 or 8" of ground first even though it would have meant losing a lot of trees. At least then we would have been starting bermuda grass free.

We bought this land and built this place intending to live here forever, and so we shall. And, no matter how long forever is, I guess I'll still be fighting to dig up the bermuda from the dense red clay.

Dawn

Clay problems huh. I have good garden soil because it has been improved over many years. Other places in the yard it is very rocky and if you dig down 3 1/2 feet you hit solid limestone. Ask me how I know? By the time we paid for a new septic system, you might say we had a septic system with an attached house. LOL

Carol,

I have good soil in the areas where I've improved it for a decade, but the rest of it is horrid. Unfortunately, the evil, horrid rock-hard clay is just outside the garden fence and bermuda and Johnson grass lurk in it. If I could break up that clay, I'd make the garden larger but since that clay is so impossible to dig, the 'enlarged' garden will be in a different area where the clay has a bit of sand in it. I think it will be possible to dig and maybe even rototill that sand-infused clay.

I don't envy you the solid limestone. My younger brother has solid limestone underneath caliche clay/rock. It is hard for him to remove bermuda and grow his garden too. He pretty much finally gave up after fighting the bermuda and rocks for about 15 years.

I can't imagine having to put in a septic system on top of 3' of rock.

Some of the real old-timers who are now in their 80s and 90s tell me that my clay is so awful because it used to have several feet of good topsoil on it, but all that eroded away over the years. Well, thanks a lot for telling me guys.....I feel so much better now. LOL Even before they told me that, I suspected it. In some very low-lying areas like the creekbed, you can see a bit of the topsoil. Up on higher land in the civilized area where the house, etc., is though, all we have is the former clay subsoil that is now the surface soil.
When people talk about just digging out bermuda, I think to myself that it must be nice...but not possible here.

Dawn

So far the garden area that I put roundup on doesn't have much bermuda coming back, but I am still having a crab grass problem in some areas. That was probably from seed already in the ground, I think.

Yes, a septic was expensive to say the least. We had one backhoe breaking rock and another dipping it out. We did manage to get in a 1,000 gallon low boy but the top is at ground level and that is the best we could do. It is behind the bunkhouse so not too obvious.

Carol,
I understand your rock situation. In NM you either had sand or you had shallow soil with solid rock underneath it. In spots just a few inches of topsoil. I remember when a neighboring rancher died and he had specified he wanted to be buried on a angle at the base of a hill entering the valley that led to his headquarters. My Dad and other neighbors spent a whole day with jack hammers, drills and dynamite digging the grave. I'm not sure it was 6 foot deep with they called it good. As one said after they roll the rocks on top nothing will ever more them unless it is a power from above.
Dawn I don't usually dig it out if I'm spraying it. I just spray with Round up 3 times four days apart of close to it. But like the sprouts at the end that had just came up I just dug them out. I didn't want to spray Round up that close to the plants. But if I had your soil I probably would just spray. I've heard those who cuss sand. I just think you don't have a clue how fortunate you are. Jay

Jay,

"I just think you don't have a clue how fortunate you are." Because you are my friend, I am going to assume you are teasing me and I am not going to try to convince you how awful the clay is.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the street. I think it would be terrific to have your sandy soil, and you think I am fortunate to have clay. We're both probably wrong.

I don't use Round-up much at all because I try to do things as organically as possible and I only use chemicals as an absolute last resort. I might use Round-up once every three or four years.

Any time you'd like some of this clay that I am so fortunate to have, just come on down and pick up a truck load. You'd better bring a big dozer or dynamite though.

Dawn, the Claycrete Queen

Dawn, I read Jay's comment a couple of time and finally decided that he meant that when others complain about having sand they just don't know how lucky they are that they have it. It will be interesting to see what he really meant. LOL

Carol, Oops. I didn't read it that way and I read it over and over again trying to make sense of it. If I interpreted it incorrectly, I'll apologize to Jay.

I always wanted to be the queen of something. I just didn't want to be the queen of dysfunctional clay soil. (And I use the term soil rather loosely.)

I will throw down this parting shot. How bad is my clay? I actually seriously considered giving up gardening. Can you believe it? Clearly I decided against that.

Dawn

Dawn

I'm just curious. Asking 2 questions of you. First, does your clay have earth worms? The so-called 'good soil' in my bowl garden has none. Drowns em all. Maybe next year as I raise the level in my garden by building the 'lasagna' higher, I may be able to start a 'reproducing population'.

Next, I've read that lime and gypsom are soil conditioners. Why would that be? Even though I feel my soil has a good tilth, I've always tried to add more amendments in the form of compost, etc, as fast as I can make it, buy it or acquire it.

But maybe I should add lime and gypsom as well??? Would be a pretty cheap and easy amendment compared to some.

It seems to me that you have been doing the best and only thing you can to improve your clay by adding more amendments in the form of spoiled hay, leaves, grass clippings, manure, etc. And apparently each successive year it shows improvement.

Also, just wondering, do you plant deep rooted cover crops in the winter that break up heavy soil? I would like to do that. Do you have some recommendations as to which could be planted here in Okie?

Thanks,
Question box Barb

Barb,

It depends on the density of the clay, but in general the earthworm answer is no as far as the unimproved clay goes. I think it is too dense for them to tunnel through.

In the areas where I have done tons of soil improvement for ten year, there are some worms, even in areas that are not raised beds. In the raised beds there are lots of earthworms...so much so that I hate digging there for fear I'll hurt one.

In the areas where I've done no soil improvement, no worms that I've ever seen. As any area improves the worms return, but a really big rain (like the 12" in one day in April or the 9.25" that fell in about 4 hours in April 2006) hurts them a lot. I am not sure if they die or just move to higher, drier ground.

Lime and gypsum are soil conditioners most often recomended in commercial agriculture where fertilizer salts accumulate at a high rate. Whether they work for any one person's soil or not varies highly depending on the kind of clay it is, the mineral levels in it, its salt content, etc. Even when gypsum works, its affects are short-lived and they have more to do with improving flocculation of soil particles than anything else. Id rather improve my soils flocculation by adding organic matter.

I am not sure what effect gypsum would have on the biological activity in the soil so I won't use it. I have worked really, really, really hard with oodles of soil amendment to bring the pH down to about 6.8 to 7.2 (from 8.0 to 8.4) in the veggie garden and to make my soil biologically healthy. So, I avoid gypsum like the plague because I fear it will cause more problems than it will solve. You can google and find arguments both for and against adding gysum to clay. I've never tried lime (except pickling lime in pickles, LOL) but assume it would have the same affect as gypsum.

I have worked so very hard to amend the clay, but have lost a lot of plants because heat eats compost. Both my blackberries and daylilies died because the compost in their soil depleated more quickly than I could replace it. I would have dug them and moved them and saved them, but all the improved soil was already occupied. Well, and it was a severe drought and the claycrete was too hard to dig, although dynamite might have worked.

As the soil improves, I move on and start on a new spot. However, it isn't like you amend the soil and you're done. Because heat eats compost (makes it decompose very quickly in the soil), you have to continually and perpetually add more. So, when I have an area really improved, I add more space and start improving it, but I still have to keep amending the already-improved area as well.

I have tried an experiment with one raised bed the last three years. It was well amended when I built the garden in 1999-2000. Every year it had the mulch rototilled into it in winter and some compost tilled in as well. I wondered if all that work was really necessary (I thought it was, but wondered what would happen if I didn't do it).

So, for three years, I raked off the mulch at the end of the growing season and didn't add anything to that bed. When I planted in spring, it got a granular organic fertlizer (Plant-Tone). It also got whatever mulch decomposed into it over the course of the growing season. After not amending for three years it has reverted back to hard clay....not as hard as soil that's never been amended, but still very bad clay. So, the experiment backed up what I knew in my heart....perpetual amending is a must....and this bed with get a triple dose of compost and leaf mold this fall and winter.

I do not plant deep rooted cover crops because they'd rot in a rainy year. Instead, I work in compost, manure and chopped leaves all winter long. I try to add stuff to each bed and rototill it in with my mini-tiller at least 3 times in the fall/winter.

Someone with better-drained soil probably could plant deep-rooted cover crops. To learn more about them, go to the Peaceful Valley Farm Supply website. They have oodles of cover crop info. Or, google John Jeavons. He preaches cover cropping.

Dawn

Here is a link that might be useful: Gypsum and Sulfur for Soil Improvement

Dawn you can clearly see why I'm not a politician. Then again maybe I should be as I seem to be able to confuse people enough they don't have a clue what I meant. LOL. First let me say. I'm glad I have the sand. And one reason I bought where I did. I would like to buy a bigger acreage in the country. But want it in the sand. Yes I know how fortunate I am. From helping my sister and BIL with their garden. They have now went to tanks and containers. I meant that as a reply to those around here who complain about the sand. Yes there is some good tight ground around here. And my sister has some. The problem is being tighter it take more water. I get a one inch rain that falls moderately it all soaks in. They get the same rain 50% puddles or runs off. And a lot easier to over water. Here in the sand you have to work at it too over water. Not so at their place. No I'll keep my sand. You can come and get a little but please don't bring your clay in exchange. Some canned goods will be ok. LOL And you don't owe me any apology. I should of made it plainer. Never even thought about how it would be interpreted. I took pictures and sliced and diced my Marizol Korney's today. I will get them posted soon. You will have to read my impression. Of course this isn't Marizol Purple so that maybe part of the difference. And then like Camo and I have found comparing results. His tight land like yours tends to give them a different flavor compared to my well drained sand. He couldn't understand what I liked about KB so much. Then quit watering it and it really moved up his list. And I've found a few that seems to taste better with more water. So a little give and take. And you said it was a wet year when you grew MP. But speaking of KB. I counted around 27 this morning without digging. If I remember right you said you never get good production out of them. Usaually a later one but very as good as any. Picked another last night. And it is the proper color. The other one is the one the worms ate on. It matured early. So probably the reason for the color difference. Didn't affect the flavor any though. Should have pictures and a taste test soon. The first was an 8-8.5. Very good. Reminds me why I grow it. But know as soon as the cooler weather arrives the flavor will drop. They are the worst I've ever seen for that. Jay

Dawn
Please understand that I,(of all people) am not trying to give you, (of all people) 'advice, lol! What I'm doing is trying to learn, and we do this by chatting back and forth on our garden and soil issues. The questions I asked mainly pertained to my own garden needs and problems.

Ok, I figured that was the case with garden worms in your clay. For one reason, there has to be something for them to munch on besides clay.

In the low part of my garden there aren't any worms, and never have been, because they drown due to standing wet water during the rainy seasons. We've all seen worms going to the surface in really wet weather trying to escape drowning.

About gypsom and lime, etc, I haven't added any. In fact, I've been afraid to add anything that would upset the natural balance. What soil needs more than anything is humus by adding compost, spoiled hay, grass clippings etc.

I've been aware as you have the way heat and soil 'eats' compost. This brings me to the question of the practice of building hugulkultur beds, where the compost ISN'T eaten, but rather a layer, (as in a soft forest floor), where a spongy microbe rich barrier separates the sub-standard soil and the new compost and humus enriched topsoil on the surface. This apparently is the basis of a no-til garden.

I started the rudiments of a lasagna garden based on the same theory, which seems like nature's way.

Then, I became aware of the hugulkultur method and began working, (albeit slowly) on developing a long 2ft high hugulkultur raised bed, mainly for my spring crops, close by diciduous trees that haven't leafed out yet.

This would also serve as a berm to hold back floods coming from downhill into my garden as well. Plus, it would give me some extra planting room, as well as giving me a jump start during rainy springs whereas before, I had to wait FOREVER it seemed to start garden without drowning everything.

Anyway, back to basics. Would the lasagna or hugulkultur no-till method prevent soil from 'eating' compost by creating a barrier?

Long way around to ask a simple question, sorry, lol!

Barbara

Jay,

Glad that's settled. I was afraid you were telling me to appreciate my clay and I was thinking that you were losing your mind. LOL

I hate clay with a passion, but the sandy soil here is so prone to nematodes that it isn't even an option for a serious gardener. I am sure if I keep working at the clay and amending it then maybe one day I'll have something that passes as soil.

For me, KB produces just like Brandywine, which is to say it barely produces at all. I know I've tried it three different years. Maybe all three years were bad years? I don't remember.

I'd love to quit watering in order to get better flavor, but in our heat and with our soil, if you stop watering, they die. I will get decent flavor from most, superb flavor from others in any given year. My best tomatoe weather is rain through late May or early June and then just a little rain (but some rain!) after that. The low rainfall makes for better flavor. However, when there's no rainfall and I have to water, I find myself balancing on a tightrope between watering enough to keep the plants alive and producing and,yet, not watering so much that flavor is negatively impacted. The watering issue is where I don't understand the Earthbox/Earthtainer growers. They claim they get good tomato flavor, but I'm not buying it. Since their soil is always wet, the flavor cannot be as good as what you or I get in a good year. I did notice that Raybo is trialing a lot of soil mixes this fall to see if one or the other will give better flavor, so I think he finally is conceding that tomato plants in SWCs are somewhat watered down in flavor.

In what has to be one of the most perverse actions on the face of the earth, if it ever stops raining I am going to try to move some clay (if I can dig it, and having it wet will help) to part of my band of sandy soil and add it to the sand to help the sand hold water better. I wish we had a bigger band of sand but "ya gets what ya gets" and clay is what we got.

Barbara, Oh, I didn't take it as advice...just as curiosity. There are several reasons I haven't used sulphur or lime or gypsum and they have to do with long-term soil health.

Hugelkultur beds would be preferable to rototilling down into the soil except that, if your soil is dense like mine, the roots stop when they grow down deep enough to hit the dense clay. So, unless your bed is high/tall, you're likely to have shallowly rooted plants. That's one issue.

When I made a hugelkultur bed, it started out high/tall but shrank down fairly rapidly except for the rotted logs/sticks on the bottom. I like to make hugelkultur beds to restore drainage gullies where erosion has occurred. I've been doing that for sevearal years in part of our pasture that has serious erosion issues. I don't plant those beds though. I build them and let native plants spring up there as they may since the whole point is to rehab that area. That whole heat eats compost thing makes the hugelkultur beds degrade more quickly here than they do in a less extreme climate. As long as you're willing to keep layering on tons of material from the top down, though, I'd think it would work.

Remember that in order for compost to be eaten by heat, it needs air. That's why humus/compost/organic matter in soil breaks down more slowly if the soil is not routinely turned over with a plow, tiller, shovel, etc. Soil that isn't turned over has a lower oxygen level so decomposition is more slow. With a hugelkultur bed, since it sits above grade and has chunky logs on the bottom, I'd guess it will decompose a bit more quickly than organic matter below grade level because it has more air flow. I just don't know how much more quickly that would occur.

In our woodland, we have 6-10" of the soft, springy, cushion of humus, compost, twigs, leaf mold, etc. on top of red clay. Locals who know tell me these trees along our creek have been growing about 60 years, so 60 years of natural decomposition of woody material have given the forest that 6-10" layer of fabulous soil surface. You can duplicate that over a few years with a hugelkulture bed and I think you'll get slower decomposition but don't know exactly how much more slowly. Mulching will help a lot, both with erosion prevention and it should help 'seal' (not tightly, but still....) the hugulkulture bed and slow down air movement. Still, compost happens whether it is happening below or above ground.

Dawn

Dawn remember I would never question the "Queen of the Oklahoma Gardening Forum" a "Master Gardener" as marvel at her knowledge. And for sure never tell her how to garden or what she should appreciate!!!! I've learned a few things in my 56 years and one is be careful when questioning a lady. Ha Now with that said I'm glad we can have fun here and no one gets too upset when I don't translate what I mean into words clearly.
I found an old post you made maybe 3 years ago a few weeks ago about hyped tomatoes that didn't cut it in your garden. Almost looked like mirror of my experiences with just a few exceptions. And one of those is KB. Not sure what the difference is there and may not ever know. I have been looking back at notes this year and like most in the past the plants planted after May 20th through June will end up out producing those planted early and direct sown. I need to try a high tunnel next year. No I'm not hard headed just would like to get earlier and better production from late June on. Now it is late August before I see much consistent production. My first few this year was around July 1st but nothing steady. Hard to beat Mother Nature. Jay

Jay
Have to agree with you on nice sandy soil. I lived/visited in Great Plains TX one summer, and the gardening was out of this world! The root systems of plants are really able to spread out and grab every bit of nourishment and water. Luckily we had a good well and plenty of water.
Dawn knows I was 'fishing' for input on the Hugulkultur, permaculture type of gardening and wanted her input. And as usual, she's a storehouse of experience and practical information.

Dawn, what you said makes sense, as usual. I feel for the type of soil I have here, it would be perfect, especially since I need to get my growing areas well above grade. With my type sandy loam, when the roots reached into and past the rotting log section, they would still be into good topsoil, (but not waterlogged).

I'm still working on the plan, but hey, due to the great advice here, my garden is for the first time taking on the shape of a real working garden with far fewer problems than before. Not saying that I haven't made a lot of mistakes, but at least I have made progress and don't feel like throwing my hands up in dispair.

If I had the ways and means, I'd be out with a front end loader digging up tons of that soft forest floor and relocating it into my garden. Unfortunately, that's a mere pipe dream, and the soil, bed's, etc are having to be built up slowly aka Dawn's, one season at a time. One layer at a time, but it's still progress. Ya learn something new around here everyday. :)

Barb

That's OK Jay, I'll translate. You might be good at politics, they rarely say what they really mean. I'm messin' with ya.

Actually I guess maybe I am good at translation. When people asked me what I did at Tinker, I always said, "I tell the programmers what the customer really wants instead of what he says he wants." I did some programming, but my training was in Contracting. It was nice to "speak both languages" so to speak.

I knew that you knew that Dawn hated her clay, and I also knew that you liked your sandy soil, so I was pretty sure that was what you intended to convey. LOL

Jay,

You make me laugh. Tim would probably say I am the queen of mud because when it rains all I do is track in red mud all over the floors. At least you can follow the red mud residue (which is clay!) and find me.

If I lived in your climate with the later cold nights in spring and the earlier cold nights in fall, I'd consider a high tunnel to be absolutely essential. You probably could plant in late March and keep your plants going into November at least, and maybe December. What's the downside to that?

It is and always will be hard to beat Mother Nature because she bats last, but a high tunnel would give you a good chance of evening up the score.

Barbara,

One thing many of the Permaculture books often say, and it cracks me up every time, is to just strip the sod and turn it over and let it decompose and become part of the soil. Apparently the folks who write these books have never tried this with bermuda grass. So, even great advice isn't 'great' for everyone in every area.

Carol, I really thought Jay was jabbing at me to make me mad. Hee hee. I could never be mad at Jay. He's too good of a guy. I don't get mad often and when I do, it generally doesn't last very long.

We really have too much fun here. It has rained (if you call misty crap with a little lighter stuff mixed in "rain") for almost 24 hours and I would have been so bored without this forum that I would have had to resort to housework or to watching college football. (Actually, I did "some" housework and I watched "some" college football but I like both of them in manageable doses.) If this rain keeps up a while longer, it may amount to an inch or more.

Dawn

I'm enjoying this thread & wish I had info to offer, but am too much of a beginner. I'm concerned also by my lack of earthworms.

Friends near stillwater who are successful with their garden thanks to slightly raised bed and lots of soil improvement...have clay soil and swear by their practice of mixing in bags of cottonseed hulls.

Betty,

I mix in everything I can afford to buy and everything I can scrounge up, but I started with virtually 100% clay(you can make crude pottery out of it), so it takes a fortune to amend an area and you have to keep amending every year. There are all kinds of clay and many have a higher sand or silt content than mine, which means those types of clay don't require as much amending.

Composted cottonseed hulls are great, but the ones I find here are not from organically raised cotton, so I won't use them because non-organic cotton is treated with tons of chemicals. Some folks don't mind the chemically treated cottonseed hulls, but many of us who garden organically don't use soil amendments that contain chemical residues, and this is especially true in areas where we grow food crops. If I had a source of cottonseed hulls from cotton grown organically, I'd use them too. They're great, but they really aren't any better than any other organic matter. All organic matter is good as long as it isn't diseased or covered in chemical residues.

My favorite soil amendment is chopped/shredded autumn leaves because they contain all the trace elements plants need for growth...and they contain them in the same ratios the plants need.

Dawn

I like to buy compost by the truck load but this year I couldn't do that so I bought a few bags of cottonseed compost when I was putting in some new flower beds. My neighbors asked DH what I was putting in my flower beds. It stunk so badly and you could smell it for days and you didn't have to be close. It didn't seem to hurt the flowers but it smelled awful. I was glad I hadn't bought it for food beds.

We are kind of re-thinking our vehicles because I am the one that needs a truck for all the things I need to carry for the garden. I have had to clean the carpets in the SUV more than once because of a leeking manure bag.