WOW! that IS amazing!

I guess that the palms in Vancouver have really adapted to a cold climate so that their seeds are even cold hardy.

I wonder if there has been some genetic change in those BC Palms that have made it into the seeds.

I should have placed my order with Joe when I had the chance. I kept forgetting though! :(

Good luck ono your palms, it looks like if they made it through that winter with little protection, they'll ace the next winter with proper protection.

I wanted to know how did you even get the seeds started I planted some trachycarpus takil seeds in a container and after 5 months nothing happened. I had it damp and in the cupboard where it is dark and cool in the winter. Maybe trachycarpus fortunei is better to grow.

Thanks BlondBoy - I was shocked to see that they still had some green, and even more shocked that they were growing. I have some larger trachy, but didn't want to risk them in the winter, so took a few of the many babies and experimented. I'm glad I did. I guess to be fair it wasn't a typical Ottawa winter, but it was definitely long and the ground was frozen solid. I don't know anything about the parentage, except that they are from Vancouver. Perhaps keeping the snow off the palms, but using the snow as a protective cover really helped. Maybe if we have a typical winter next year, it will really put the experiment to task.

Coolcap - Try soaking the seeds first for a couple of days and then removing any grey cover. These particular trachy I just planted in lightly moist dirt in a pot and kept in the house til they sprouted. Others I've tried I put in a bag of slightly moist soil and after a few months opened to find sprouts. Trachycarpus fortunei seem pretty easy to start, but seem to take 4 months. European fan palm even easier and quicker to start (2 months). Maybe there was a problem with your seeds. Keep trying, they might still emerge.

While the palm survived, I doubt it will make it another season unless well protected in your zone.

matt,

Thanks for the info and better yet the pictures. As they say, "a picture is worth a thousand words". I also bought some seeds and seedlings with Banana Joe. However, I believe his seeds and seedlings come from trees planted on Vancouver Island which has a warmer and drier climate than that of the City of Vancouver. Nonetheless, these seeds seem to be relatively hardy. Based on your experience I will plant a few of the seedlings around the yard. This way I can get them out of the house which will make my wife happy.

Coolcap, based on my experiences with trachy seeds, be patient some will sprout in a few weeks while many will take months to sprout. The key is to ensure that the seeds you plant are fresh also, bottom heat should help though I didn't use it.

Regards
Phil

PS. You got to love this heat wave we are having!

Hi virginian, I'm inclined to agree with you. But these palms seem to have an excellent start with virtually no damage (other than the leaf burn). There was no fungus rot or leaf dwarfing, and the base as well as the spears were not harmed at all by the winter. If they get lots of growth this summer, AND it isn't our normally brutal winter.. well maybe they'll survive another year. I will protect them with a lot more insulation this time.

Tropical-TO, Could be that he selected some great trees to harvest for me. The one seedling that was not well protected died, so these are not fool proof progeny. No kidding about clearing out the house - my wife has threatened me with bodily harm if I accumulate ONE MORE plant. She is thrilled that they are outside now, but always edgy about the autumn return. I keep reminding her how much O2 they provide us :) This heatwave is awesome, I have seen the bananas spring to life in the last few days. If anyone in Ottawa is interested, musa basjoo is (for the first time) readily found in nurseries. I picked up a beautiful big one for $15 at Richmond nurseries. Still no trachies or washies available here. I'll post updates on these trachy seedlings as the summer progresses.

Even in my Zone 7 garden, I would be most worried about the roots freezing in the winter. Volcano mulching should take care of the issue of root zone freeze. Damage to the leaves/fronds is less of a concern, but I think the less the better since the palm will be better able to photosynthisize when spring rolls around. Protection of small palms is cheap insurance and I agree, will make them hardier as they grow. Mild winters have been more frequent, but I always worry about the Arctic Blast that could wipe it alll out. Let's hope not this year. May the summer heat be with you and your palms.

Windmill palms don't mind wet conditions in winter as long as they are in zone 8 or above. Duration of cold and the freezing of roots is the challenge in 7b. I grow seedlings in the garden because Victoria, BC is zone 8b (American USDA chart). Vancouver is zone 8a. Victoria has one problem: summer drought. Seedlings dry out on Saltspring Island or Victoria if they are not watered in summer. I grow them in shade or partial shade.

I have free seedlings for Vancouver Island residents. Seeds also. Just give them a home on the coast were they like it.

Cheers

Here is a link that might be useful: Site on palms in British Columbia

Denis

you might know how I feel in the northeast zone 6- with two hardened off trachies (1 Fortunei 1 Waggie) They are in an great micro climate- and I protect them with plastic mini greenhouses, mulch and if needed heat. Last winter was a zone 7- lets hope for milder this winter!

The key is protection when it gets very cold and then wet. In my area I have gotten away with Wilt-Pruf and fungicide if any damage has occured. in Zone 6 and colder more protection will be needed most years.

Matt,

How are you palms doing so far this year?

T.O.,
The palms are doing ok, but growing slowly. I suspect what had saved them in the winter may be hindering their growth in the summer - dryness. They are situated next to the house under the roof overhang on the south side, hence the ground remains hot and dry most of the time, even after a rainfall. They are just seedlings, so I can't expect rapid growth - but they should probably be growing a bit faster. I have since planted a few other larger seedlings in the garden and will leave them there all winter, with protection. I will snap some photos and upload them here to show the progress. Thanks for asking. How are yours making out? Matt.

Matt, I assume that you are providing water for those seedlings under the roof overhang? :) If not, get that @!#&@#$@$ watering can out! LOL ;)

But seriously, we know that there are some places were "some" trachies defy logic when the survive low temps that neither you or I ever see.

It makes me wonder, if, with "certain" individual plants, there's some genetic "difference" (even is slight) that causes the extra hardiness. In that, I wonder if by some chance you have stumbled upon one/some of these "mutants".

If so, YOU may become Canada's supplier of ...... hmmmmm.... what should we call them...... Trachy Torontonian! Or Trachy Ottawanian. LOL yeah, that's it!

I missed my opportunity to order seedlings from Joe. I should have done it, but I was concerned about not having enough space..... and I don't! LOL but it would sure be fun to experiement.

Either way, keep us posted, especially with the winter coming. Hey, maybe a webcam would be nice...right over the little guys so we can all keep an eye on them over the coming winter. ;) :D

I would urge caution for a "super hardiness" variety as we have all been having milder winters, thus I would reserve jumping to conclusions on this. I hope through cultivation over the years more hardy cultivars will reveal themselves to us. All this talk of winter has me nervous eventhough it is over 100F outside.

I would need to see proof of a trachycarpus culitvar able to to survive in a zone 6-7 winter without protection-suffering little or no damage. Even if climate change is real, or if our winters remain mild for decades to come- there is up to now no Trachycarpus able to live in a zone 5-6 winter, let alone zone 7 without damage. And if such a plant is around- take me your leader.

I personally know of several large Trachycarpus in Zone 7 that have gotten through many cold winters with no problems. Zone 6 is another matter and without question Zone 5 is improbable in a real winter, not a mild one.

Here's a quick story of my T.Fortunei's(TF). I have a Papa TF which was in a 3Gal pot which now has been repotted and staying that way until next year. Hopefully by then I will have found the perfect spot in my garden and that it has grown a bit larger. I also have mama TFs, they are seedlings that I received from Joe, and they are doing well and planted in pots and sporadically in the garden. Finally I have(had) baby TFs they were seeds from Joe sowed in January and were doing well until I decided to place them outside in June in full sun. Needless to say they are not doing well. In fact, I think that they are dead. Live and learn I guess.

To be continued.

Has amyone heard of when the new USDA zone maps will be released? I use the one at the Arbor site-

Also- is sabal Louisiana more hardy then trachycarpus takil?
The sabal 'McCurtain' and 'Takil' I recieved from Plant Delights are naturally growing very quickly in this humid (dew point here in central CT today 77) and 100 degree temps- as all my perennials, Yucca, and other palms. The trachy Wag and Fortunei are really popping as well.

Dragontek: I would have to say the Sabal Louisiana is hardier by a decent margin to the Trachycarpus Takil. Of any of the Trachycarpus, the so called Takil variety has the best chance of making it. The Trachycarpus "Bulgarians" are not as hardy as the Takils and you can see a difference when they put on trunk, the Takils are much thicker with more coarse and thicker "hairs" too.

BlondBoy,

I do indeed water the seedlings, but it is still a dry environment. If I dig down a few cms, it is very dry. Occassionally I leave the hose on for a while to soak the ground. These trachies survived the winter because of some combination of snowcover, my odd protective measure, situation (south side, dry), and alignment of stars. I do know that with NO protection, they would have died (as the one I left unprotected did die, albeit in a different location).

Now don't get me all excited about a variant strain that can thrive in a zone 4a climate.. or I'll spend my whole day day-dreaming about my very own palm tree nursery. Even suggesting such a thing would send my wife over the edge. In any case, at their growth rate I would be a very old man before I ever got seeds out of these palms, if they ever did produce seeds.

These are definitely tough palms though. As seedlings, they should have been vulnerable. Simply surviving an Ottawa winter, milder than normal or not, is incredible. Whether last year was a zone 4a or 5a is little comfort to the poor seedlings. The winter started in November and prevailed until April, as witnessed by the frozen ground in April when I tried to uncover them. My simple protective cover did ensure they were dry and somewhat insulated. There would have been little to no heat from the house though, as there is no basement next to the plants.

Virginian: I think BlondeBoy was just kidding around about a super-strain. A little california dreaming. This was just a small experiment that I ran, expecting complete failure of course, but producing success. Something I did in this experiment is a key factor in helping palms survive freezing conditions. Now if only I could survive these swealtering temps! It was 36C (97F) here yesterday.

I did promise to upload a few pics, and will as soon as possible. A web cam would probably produce the most boring show on earth, as these palms grow slower than toe-nails. But I will definitely update progress and illustrate the winter protection method when that terrible day comes. Cheers.

Below is an interesting site that lists all of the lowest survival temperatures of many palm species. I'm not sure how valid the info is but it does list most of the Sabal and Trachycarpus species.

Here is a link that might be useful: Find here the lowest survival temperatures:

Thanks for the Info Virginian -I wonder how my trachy wag will do this winter- it has been hardened off for many years- staying in a pot till it was covered with snow and temps dropping to 20 without damage- in fact it was in the ground here (as A much smaller plant-winter 97-98, and did very well- however that was a zone 8 winter here. The other Fortunei has also been in a pot and endured cold and snow.
The Takils seem to be very tough plants.

As for the Sabal L- I am going to harden it off this winter, and plant it in the spring.

Also re: T. Takil

back in the lates 1990's A nursery in Santa Rosa (Neon Palm) shipped a deep rooted Trachy Takil- well the dumb gardener thought it was a weed !-Was I pi****- in any case I agree with you Virginian- it did have tougher fibers and leaves then any other trachy.

As promised, here are a few pictures to update progress of the seedlings. The first picture shows the three seedlings and their growth. For reference see the previous pictures in the posting. It also shows the site of the three seedlings today and last winter (under the window).

Oh, and didn't mention... the earth is quite sandy (a sandy loam). This may have implications for drainage.

Matt,

Nice pics, I like your phoenix Dactylifera (from seed). Where in Ontario are you?

Thanks
Phil

Your plants are beautiful Trachy Matt. Did you overwinter the basjoo banana in the ground?? Also, the trachycarpus looks like it wants to be moved it into a somewhat bigger pot (unless you want to maintain it at its current size). Keep up the good work!

Thanks Phil.
I am in Ottawa. It's a Canada zone 5 or USDA zone 4a.

The phoenix is quite old now (about 10 years?). It has suffered some major setbacks along the way, like a dog chewing it to the ground. It handles cold temperatures very well, as low as -8C. The phoenix and the trachy are the best all around palms I have for northern climates, because they can easily handle the long stagnant conditions in the house over winter, cold nights in the spring and fall outside, and sudden exposure to sun in the spring when I put them outside. The phoenix does grow pretty slow though.

The big trachy I have has grown rapidly. When I planted it (3 years ago), the trunk was non existent, and now is about 7 inches around. It grows well overwinter in the house or outside in the summer, never suffering drought, sunburn, lack of light, or dry air. It does occasionally get mites in the winter, but I clean off the leaves weekly. I do take it outside in the winter if temperatures pop above freezing, if only for a few hours. But that is rare.

The Dracaena has also grown into a tree, thanks to fertilizer the first year. It has a good 3 inch round bare trunk at the base and should have a full 8 inches of clear trunk by Fall. I have found that the dracaena with all green leaves tolerate cold pretty well, but the ones that have a reddish mid rib in the leaves (faint) are more sensitive. They handle the house environment pretty well, but leaves that emerge over winter are a bit stunted in length.

I think hardening off can make a big difference before planting. This year and last year I purchased several greenhouse grown Trachycarpus in February and put them outside in a sheltered south facing wall while still in their pots. I left them there day and night with no protection with temps going below 15F on many nights. They took very little damage, maybe a little tip burn, but looked great in early April when I did finally plant them. They Trachys I did this too last year literally exploded when it warmed up and have put on about 8 inches of trunk this year. The leaf fans are about double or more in size too.

Hi njoasis;
Thanks for the encouragement. This has been a great summer for the plants with lots of rain and warm temps.

This is actually the first year for my basjoos. They were never available here before. As you can imagine I was pretty excited when I found them at the local nursery. I got 2 because I was afraid trying to overwinter them outside would be terminal. This way I will "sacrifice" one to an experiment outside, and protect the other one inside. I will have to use extreme protection to get it through the winter. Most normal winters see a minimum temperature of -35C (-30F).

I think you are bang on with the trachy. I too think it would benefit from a much larger pot. In fact most of my other palms, etc.. are in bigger pots. I should get on that ASAP while I still have great growing weather.

Matt:

Just as an aside. I too have kept our new palms (Trachys, Needles and Washintonias (young plants)) in pots rather than planting. I was going to, but we're feeling the itch to move out west and will most likely do so when the time is right. So I figured, keep the palms in pots.

The reason I'm posting is to give you encouragement.

Not last winter, but the winter before, we went to Niagara Falls, ON to a public greenhouse there. I was surprised and happy to see a 15' Trachy F. there in a "pot".

The pot was square and about 3'x3' or so. Probably 1.5 to 2' deep (not sure).

Point is, this Trachy was doing just fine in this pot, albeit heavy I'm sure.

Thanks BlondBoy. The big trachy has done very well, probably the fastest grower of all my palms and the only one willing to develop a real trunk. It does get to be a chore hauling all these big pots indoors in the Fall and outside in the Spring, but that's life in Ottawa. I would be quite happy though if I could find a reliable method of protection for the winter, while still permitting the palms to grow unrestrained outside in the ground.

I tried building a small greenhouse last year for a few experimental plants, but it was ripped and crushed by the winter winds and snow, so wasn't practical. It's also very hard to keep the temperature above freezing. That was why I decided to "hibernate" the trachy seedlings, and just insulate them from the bitter cold. It seemed to work, although prevented any growth for 6 months. Next time I try a greenhouse I will have to fortify it.

Now that I look at the May 28 pictures and the August 2 pictures, the seedlings have done pretty well in just 2 months. I know they will keep growng until November. I have to find a way to minimize any damage though, so they get a quick start in April and start growing again fast.

Thanks for the encouragement. I would envy you if you moved out to the west coast. I remember the incredible plants in Victoria and Vancouver; big old Trachys, huge Bananas, Eucalyptus, Cypruss, etc... I'm sure with your talents you could get phoenix and washingtonia to grow too. Cheers, Matt.

Hi everyone, Trachy_Matt, where do you live in Ottawa, I live out by herongate mall, and I am trying a trachycarpus fortunei, musa basjoo, yucca rostrata, sabal minor, and livistonia chenises?. So far so good,....I love your results that you are having do you knwo if Banana Joe, will take money orders?, just incase my palm doesn't make it, because I know that if you can get seedling to grow here, then I can to, and if it will grow from a seed, over a period of time the will continue to grow here with little or no protection.

Adam

I live near Manotick. As far as I know, banana Joe still takes orders, although I havent seen him on a forum in a while. He gave me great seeds. plants I grew from his seeds have grown fast and are getting big. Sadly... I have to report my experiment took a disasterous turn this year. I tried a new method of protection that was a dismal failure. I got a big bail of straw and on each plant I piled the straw up, then covered with a laundry basket and finally a blanket. The problem may have been because the fall/ early winter was too warm. In December I uncovered the plants because it was so warm, only to find there were NO TRACHYs left. Seems an animal (squirrel or mouse) got in a ate them completely. No trace of them was left. So in the end, winter didn`t get them, my protection did (nice little home for the animals). I will go back to an older method next year - cover the plants with a blanket first (so animals cant get in to them, then straw). In Ottawa, always wait til the ground is frozen first. I have a musa basjoo too, and it is covered much the same, but with plastic overtop. Will not know how that does until spring. In the house basjoo does poorly. Musa zebrina (ritchies feed seed) does very well. I will take some photos of the plants inside and post them soon. At the moment I am in Japan. The trachys here are stunning, as are the other cold harty palms and yuccas. I will take some photos. I was hoping to gather some seeds here, but so far I have found none. If I get some I will bring them home and give you some.

Cheers for now. Matt.