Great ideas! I have an idea for the veggie garden. I'm going to get four metal arches (when they go on sale) and line them up two deep to make two "tunnels". I'll plant cherry tomatoes in red, yellow and orange (supposed to get 5' - 7' tall) on two arches and purple climbing beans on the other two arches...maybe beans behind the tomatoes. Underneath, the kids can run under the tunnels and the veggies aren't big enough to hurt them if they fall off the vine. I might tuck a few strawberries (with lettuce and spinach) in the beds around the arches. I have some mini-veggie seeds that I ordered from Scheepers. Baby carrots, baby cabbage, bambino eggplant, much shorter cherry tomatoes, little head lettuce and mini-romaine. The pink radishes might look cute with these too. Some three foot sunflowers might end up with these veggies...everything in miniature. This will probably be the part of the veggie garden closest to the fairy garden :) I have another metal structure (the top of an old metal gazebo) that's about 8' in diameter and 2' tall. It's got four "legs" coming off the centerpiece that curve down and used to attach to the 6' long trellis pieces my mom kept for her garden. When you set the top on the ground...it looks a lot like a four legged spider (LOL) The plan is to plant mini-pumpkins and gourds on "spidey" which one of the nephews have taken over as his project. He wants to add bush melons and zucchini between each "leg" with lots of nasturtiums and radishes...he's a big fan of companion gardening! In front of this, I have a space for a bean teepee made from bamboo poles with different kinds of beans on it. I may include a few climbing peas, just to get something growing on it earlier in the year. On either side, there's space for some purple kohlrabi and other root vegetables. Corn, potatoes, big pumpkins, vining melons, broccoli, and other root vegetables will have to go in another space with a lot more room...soon to be started. This year, they might go in my mom's garden :) She loves having the kids up to visit and she's reclaiming the back of the garden this year. I also saw a neat idea of adding stepping stones painted with numbers and flowers/veggies for a hopscotch area. That would be perfect between the fairy garden and the kids' veggie area. Any other ideas? I'm looking for all ages/boys and girls. I have a lot of nieces and nephews who come out in the summer. Many don't have gardens at home, so the more they can do out here, the more they'll enjoy gardening in the future....I hope!

I agree with the recommendation for yardlong beans; kids are fascinated by them. The variety "Chinese Red Noodle" would be especially interesting, since it has attractive, deep burgundy-purple pods. It really thrives on heat, too... which would be a plus, given your location. Another variety, "Taiwan Black", has very long pods, some of which can actually be close to 3 feet long when mature. Both are pole varieties, you can get them from Baker Creek. Another bean that would be interesting would be winged bean (Psophocarpus tetragonolobus); and since it is a tropical bean, it is especially well-suited to Florida climate. The flowers are very attractive, the 4-sided beans are unusual, and all parts of the plant are edible. You can get seed from the non-profit ECHO, which is also located in Florida. Don't know how well common beans would do there; but a mixture of green, purple, and yellow-podded varieties would be really eye-catching. Some companies even offer a mix, I think Parks had one. Good point about the limas, Happy. Don't know the age of the children, or the degree of adult supervision... but if potential toxicity is not an issue, there are two other candidates I would recommend. Both have the added advantage of being tropical: - Sword Bean (Canavalia gladiata) has rampant vines, and some of the largest pods (up to 3" wide & over a foot long) of any bean. Kitazawa Seeds carries them. Kids like big, and these are probably the largest bean seeds you can grow. - Hyacinth bean (Dolichos lablab) has very large vines, beautiful fragrant flowers, and unusual clusters of flat pods. Kitazawa & Baker Creek both carry several varieties. Most of my recommendations have one thing in common - they are pole varieties. I agree with George, kids are really drawn to climbing beans. Some of these (such as sword bean, hyacinth bean, & the more rampant pole limas) will climb very high. You might consider raising a 10-foot pole with strings attached, then tying off the hanging strings to stakes at the bottom to form a tee-pee. This could be an impressive sight when filled with vines. Having said all this... have you contacted the Florida Master Gardeners? They would probably be happy to help, and could recommend the best varieties (and planting times) for your area. They might also be able to direct you to local sources, and perhaps even provide you with free seed.

Mary, With regard to the questions in your latest post ... 1) Yes, I think 4 - 5 foot tall T-bar fence posts are perfect for setting up a Florida Weave for those determinates that may grow to 5 or 6 feet tall. If your plants grow taller and need more support, you can always wire extensions on top of your posts and stakes. You do so by cutting a short extension ... say a two or three foot long piece of wooden stake ... and use galvanized tie wire and a pair of side cutting pliars, lap the extensions along the top of the fence posts (or stakes) and twist on three tight loop ties to secure the extension. 2) My source of 6-foot hardwood stakes is Fisher Bros. Lumber Company in Chandler, Indiana. They mill them rough cut and sell them for 75 cents each, cash and carry. Last year they were 50 cents each. Everything is going up! Mine last several years and I only buy more when the bottom foot or so rots off or they otherwise get broken. I also cut bamboo poles from a thicket along the creek north of our neighborhood. 3. Yes, I have or am growing the varieties I mentioned. My dad grew Rutgers and Marglobes with I was a kid. I've grow Rutgers several times in the past, and am growing it again this year. This is the first year I've grown Bradley and like it so far, it's sturdy, bushy, and healthy as heck but it hasn't set any fruit yet ... so time will tell. I'm growing Mozark for the first time and it's really loaded up with green tomatoes the past week or so. It's a discontinued variety, but I was able to get some seeds from the University of Missouri. Another tomato in my garden this year that I think may be a determinate is Merced. It just started loading up with little green tomatoes this week. I also have several different dwarves, but I'm growing most of those in containers. You didn't ask, but I think Early Girl Improved (the one currently on the market) is indeterminate. Not sure, but the last two years I grew it (2005, 2006) that was the information it came with and the way the plants grew. One of my tomato growing buddies on the east side of town tells me the old version of Early Girl he used to grow was determinate, but I don't have first hand confirmation of that.

New England gardeners are not alone in being plagued by large, hungry creatures with antlers; but it's still a very serious problem in many areas. When the question was presented to the New England Gardening Forum, some Garden Web members responded with their own experiences, for example; ......................................................................................................................................................... From Suenh in New Hampshire: "Nothing stops a moose. Nothing! Deer can be kept out with an assortment of tricks. But you need to rotate the tricks or they figure it out. The only permanent solution is an electric fence." ......................................................................................................................................................... From Chelone in Maine: "To me, deer are little more than rats with long legs and pretty eyes. I realize this is not a "politically correct" opinion. Know this, though; we are overrun with deer because their natural predators have been largely eliminated AND we plant umpteen plants/shrubs that attract them. I would like to see more people grant access to hunters, bow hunters, in particular. I personally LOVE venison. Any hunter who brings down a deer on my land will be held in very high esteem if he gives me a piece of venison in return for hunting rights... Mmmm...! Fire up the grill!" ......................................................................................................................................................... also from Chelone, in a less hungry mood: "We share our home with two, very active field dogs. I believe their presence has kept the marauders at bay, several neighbors report extensive damage, but I've only noted nibbles on a Nikko Blue hydrangea on the "outskirts" of our yard, and that was a few years ago (tough winter for deer!). While I am no fan of dogs (prefer cats) I have to say they seem to get the job done. I "sicced" them on 4-6 deer a year ago that were browsing in the wooded area of our yard (pre-dawn, 4:30-ish). Worked like a charm!" ......................................................................................................................................................... From Sara_the_Brit in Connecticut: "I use several different things for different areas of the garden. My town is overrun with deer (SW CT) and have caused so much damage many people have given up gardening altogether. 1. My main gardening area is fenced off. I have a 5 foot high wire fence. Technically, deer can jump 8 feet, but they're lazy around here, and will simply go next door if it looks vaguely troublesome. 5 feet have been fine for 4 years. 2. Outside the 'zone', I use Bobbex spray at least twice a week in summer (more if there is lots of new growth). This is based on rotting eggs etc. Neighbors tend to use this, or Deer-Off which has a similar base. 3. I've used Irish Spring soap around some plantings, which works for a very short while. 4. In winter, like many neighbours, we have the shrubs professionally sprayed with repellent which is wax-based so it lasts all winter. It isn't cheap, but is less than replacing shrubs. 5. I grow hostas only in containers on my deck. Hostas are like chocolate to deer. 6. I use lightweight deer netting over my foundation plants. I have found that if hungry, they will push the netting into the plant and nibble whatever sticks out, so draping the netting around posts may be more effective. 7. Around here they don't seem to like andromeda/pieris, so many people are replacing their rhododendrons and other naked twigs around their houses with it. There are lots of other things, but as has been said, they each work for about 3 weeks, then you have to change them. We've even thrown small rocks at the deer, and they don't move. They just check the rock to see if it's edible." ......................................................................................................................................................... From cosmos in Massachusetts "I think my dog and cats keep many animals away from my yard and gardens. I have never had a problem with any animal although I have woods in back of me and a pond. I did see turkeys a few weeks ago and there are deer in the neighborhood but not in my yard." ...……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. A few years after this FAQ was written, cloud_9 started a thread on the New England Gardening Forum entitled Deer Deterrence Tips. Many Garden Web members responded with their experiences, as listed below. Posted by cloud_9 z6 CT Perhaps SOME are lucky enough to have an 8 foot fence all round their property. That is deer prevention. For the rest of us, some sort of deterrence is in order. Nothing is foolproof, but here are a few tips to help you fight the good fight. You can try planting those plants that have a reputation of being poisonous or unappealing to deer. There are many lists available, but deer will browse most plants at some point or other; especially hungry deer early in the season and those cantankerous ones that just want to thumb their noses at you (no mean task when you come equipped with hooves). And maybe you LIKE hostas and other deer candy. The sneaky deer in my neighborhood were quite capable of ignoring the daylily foliage and then nimbly snipping off the flowers. How many of us grow daylilies for their foliage? I have also had deer blithely eat rose bushes with thorns so long and numerous as to make Morticia Addams swoon. Obviously these are formidable enemy. Deer are creatures of habit. It is best if you start off early in the season convincing them that your neighbors offerings are much more appealing than yours. The first thing to do is provide some sort of smell/taste disincentive. Perhaps others will weigh in with recommendations for other brands of deer spray/deterrents, but I really liked Bobbex. (Newtown, CT company!) It is an all-natural product that doesn't wash off in the rain like some (most) of the others and has the added advantage of being a foliar feeder and anti-desiccant. You can buy it in premixed spray bottles, but save money over the long haul and get the concentrate. They also make a small critter spray called Bobbex-R That might be worth a try too. After that endorsement I feel a little goofy admitting that for the past couple of years I have been making my own deer spray (I need LOTS). I have had good results as long as I remember to spray consistently and after it rains. Here is the recipe: Homemade Deer Spray 
INGREDIENTS 1 gallon of water 
1 cup of milk (but I have seen recipes that call for 1/2 cup) 1 egg 1 Tsp vegetable oil 1 or 2 cloves of garlic 
1 Tsp dish soap I have a giant container of chili powder from Costco that is getting old that I am going to try adding to the mix this year. I will let you know how it works for me. In other words, feel free to get creative DIRECTIONS: Put the milk, egg, oil and garlic in a blender and really blend well pour through cheesecloth or a fine-screened strainer into a 1 gallon sprayer or a gallon milk jug and add the water. If you don't blend well or strain the mix you run the risk of egg blobs or garlic bits clogging your sprayer. Then you will have to chase the deer away with your #@%$&ing!!!. Add the dish soap (try to use an organic or at least an uncomplicated soap like the original ivory (do they still make that?) and SWIRL rather than shake to mix Mr. Bond. You don't want lots of suds. If you have a small sprayer or don't need the whole gallon use a milk jug to mix. Then you can stick the well-labeled remainder in the fridge for a week or two. (E Mom, this milk tastes BAD!) Try not to spray at high noon in full sun; cloudy days are ideal. Whichever way you go, I strongly urge you to get a 1 or 2 gallon pump sprayer. They are relatively inexpensive and will stop your cramped-up hands from looking like Fred Sanford's when he was trying to get out of work. (Ooops, aging myself!) I got my 1-gallon for $16. You can find them for less. You want to start off early in the season as soon as new growth starts and reapply as new growth appears. Continue throughout the season every few of weeks or so, especially after rain (or as directed on commercial spray). Some will need to spray and or wrap in the winter also. Perhaps someone else can weigh in on that front. The second method of deterrence, and in my view, the most important: to develop a reputation. Remember as a kid the yard you never wanted your ball to go into because the person who lived there was crazy? Yea, you want to be that person. The best way is by shouting and flailing your arms at the deer as they munch away on your Mother's Day present. You'll have to try hard to convince them because deer are by their nature's cynical creatures. At first they will stare at you like, "You are kidding, right?" Sometimes wearing imaginative costumes such as a bathrobe and slippers or carrying props such as your morning coffee that you must try very hard not to slosh as you run in the afore mentioned bedroom slippers is an effective strategy. Soon the deer will only look sideways at your property and warn away their friends. This reputation can also work to keep problem neighbors from getting in your face and you will certainly find far less balls in your flowerbeds (and have to pass out less Halloween candy). If you want to have a vegetable garden, you will probably want to fence it. Deer can leap like the dickens, so the recommendations that deer fence should be 8 feet tall is not exaggerated. Mine was 6 feet tall. You take your chances where you may. You could have taller posts and use a wire strung along the top to reduce the fencing cost. Lots of punji sticks in the form of tomato stakes could help. As long as you are making the effort to fence your garden, make it easy on yourself and deter the smaller critters at the same time by putting a smaller screened (think chipmunk) wire mesh at the bottom of your fence that is bent out along the ground in an "L" to prevent burrowing (think woodchucks and wascally wabbits). If you grow raccoon chow you will almost certainly need an electrical fence wire. I saw the strangest thing the other day. There was a single deer in my yard and I called the kids to see it before I started to "enhance my reputation". Just as they arrived at the window, a big crow swooped down and chased that deer away! I knew I liked crows! So, if you don't have your own trained attack crows for hire, good luck with those deer. On a final note: a aren't they cuuute??? :-P Deb Follow-Up Postings: RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by tree_oracle z6b MA Garlic & chili powder sound like an Every Living Thing Deterrence. RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by ctlady z5 CT I've had success by putting a few habanero peppers into the blender with water, then straining the resulting slop and using it with a pump sprayer. Only takes a few... I kept the strained liquid in a jar in the fridge though I don't know if I really needed to. Doubt too much mold would dare to grow in it. I was assured by a horticulturist that this would not deter (or harm) the bees and butterflies -- that they wouldn't mind the stuff (as long as they could have a frozen margarita too, I guess?) And indeed, it didn't seem to, but did stop the summer browsing the one summer we had some. Don't know if it will work against more serious invasions... And yes, unfortunately they ARE cute! Here are two fawns checking out my blackberries a year or two ago... (photo unavailable) RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by greenbug zone 6_CT Thanks guys!! I have tried my hand at a similar recipe but ended up clogging the sprayer bottle. What kind of strainer do you use? My home made mix inadvertently has some settled solids and makes it really difficult. Once I tried using only soap and water but the foam still somehow made the sprayer bottle useless after a few squirts. I just bought a 2 gallon pump sprayer from Walmart for $ 8.82 or something with the intent of using for the Round up but on second thoughts, I will try to use it for the deer deterrent spray. Anna/greenbug RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by mad_gallica Z5 Eastern NY A really 'standard' strainer is a paper coffee filter. I'm still trying to figure out how to convince the deer that my cats are dangerous. They have claws, and teeth, and are very good at killing small stuffed animals and marbles. RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by cloud_9 z6 CT The strainer I use is my small hand-held wire mesh kitchen strainer. It seems to have a fine enough mesh to screen out anything that would clog my sprayer - mostly small garlic pieces that the highest setting on my blender hasn't liquified - not much. RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by diggingthedirt CapeCod Z7? Wow, Deb, I hope you published or are planning to publish this somewhere besides the forum. It's a very good read; and it deserves wider circulation. Rusty Spade, maybe? RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by claire z6b Coastal MA I can also add this thread to the How do I keep deer and moose from eating up my garden? FAQ. I've been watching the thread - I can't add it right now, but soon. That FAQ was also taken directly from a GW thread with credit to everyone who posted. Claire RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by crabgrass_central 5-6 I tried all kinds of natural and chemical deterrents last year, and the deer (and my resident Bunny FooFoo) simply considered them all to be condiments. So I bought a "scarecrow" which is a motion-activated sprinkler to post near one of my beds. So this year we'll see who hates it more, the deer or the silly gardener who keeps forgetting and walking past it. RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by annie_nh z4/5 NH I run a wire around the four stakes posted in each corner of my vegetable garden. .I cut up bars of soap(Ivory or English Spring) into about 4 cubes per bar, tie them up in old panty hose and then tie each bundle to the wire spaced about 4 feet apart. I have done this for the past 2 years and not once has any deer bothered my vegetable garden even though I see deer frequently in my field that surrounds the garden . RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by dporcella z5MA two seasons ago, we tried the irish spring to great comic effect... in light,warm rain, a bear came along, picked up the soap and rolled around the garden. she used a young Kolkwitzia (beauty bush) as a giant back scratching loofah, too. the bush made a "beautiful" comeback, but not the irish spring;) last season, the bear developed a hankering for hollytone. made off with a giant bag. wonder what she'll be jonesing for this year? RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by runktrun z7a MA Deb, Lol..great info as well as comic relief I agree with Nan we should post this on Rusty Spade. Ironically I just purchased a new bottle of Bobbex that regardless of competing odors from chemical products on the surrounding shelves the smell of Bobbex (still tightly bottled) caused me to gag. Does your recipe start to smell as foul as Bobbex after a day or two? I also have an abundance of pet hair, what are your thoughts about spreading the hair on the newly sprayed plants? I have tried the Bobbex-R in the past to deter rabbits and as I recall when comparing the two products (Bobbex and Bobbex-R)the main difference was the addition of caster oil in Bobbex-R. Thanks for the great recipe. RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by cloud_9 z6 CT kt - The Bobbex smell disappears for the most part (to evolutionarily atrophied human noses) as soon as it dries, but I can tell you from personnel experience that you want to be standing upwind while spraying and just take your chances with the deer nibbling on your bare legs! The homemade spray never smalls. Mindy, if I am recalling correctly, posted a tip last year passed on by a hostaholic friend to place a clump of hair down in the crown of hostas (to remain unobtrusive). That tip was for human hair, but I bet pet hair would work also. Of course you asked about pet hair spread on newly sprayed plants. I would recommend just planting lamb's ear if you have a craving for fuzzy plants. Or petting your moss. RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by diggingthedirt CapeCod Z7? dporcella - thanks for posting; thinking of a bear in the garden makes me feel MUCH better about my rabbit problems. Even one happily lolling with a bar of soap scares me enough to be grateful that all I have to worry about is losing my lettuce or some hosta to a (comparatively) cute little bunny. RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by hostabuff z6 (ne MA) I just bought Bobbex today - however I'm a little skeptical about how effective it would be before the foliage leafs out. I have bragged one time too many about how I NEVER see deer because I live in much too heavily a populated area - well guess who came to visit with three friends last week - first wildlife I have seen in my yard in 10 years. I wanted to mark the perimeters with some type of deer deterrent before some tasty hosta become visible. Do you think they can smell them under the ground? When I visited the store, I planned to purchase some coyote urine to pour around the perimeter of my yard - shows how little I know...ha RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by katie_gardener Deb ~ What a great post -- I agree with the others! You ought to continue writing, collect your posts and publish! :) ~ K RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by cloud_9 z6 CT Thanks for all the encouragement! I was sick, so indulged in some ubercomputerzombieness. :D RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by molie z6 CT I used to work at a large CT garden center & questions about deer vs. landscaping continued season after season after season. Sadly, there is no permanent solution because of man's encroachment into the deer's habitat. More developement (in woodlands/fields) mean more landscaping and.. hey!.. deer are not stupid. They love the stuff that people plant in their yards much more than the stuff they find in the forests. It's almost like the tastebuds of the deer population have evolved due to the variety of "buffets" homeowners offer them. Molie RE: Deer Deterrence Tips Posted by treeskate 6a Someone had posted in 'inexpensive place to buy deer repellent bushes/trees?' and a poster responded with the recommendation of using Milorganite.....raquet ball sized amount in old panty hoes, tie it to tree brances along perimeter. So I went to my local nursery and was told almost everyone buys this fertilizer specifically for deer repellent. How come I am just hearing about it now! So for $13 I got a bag and will give it a try. I'm sure I must have old knee highs or panty house stuffed in my dresser drawer, lol. But he also said, like all products, you do need to rotate repellents. You can spread it on the ground but obviously it will need replacing sooner. The deer did the worst damage this past year than any time in the last 12 years! Nips everywhere...boo hoo. But I plant only shrubs. The bunny explosion last year took out all my annuals in an enclosed garden section, so time to get chicken wire to augment my 2-1/2' fencing. Anyway, thought I would pass along the deer repellent item and if anyone has tried it, can you post your experience? ...……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. Deer being a perennial problem in some New England gardens, the issue keeps coming up. In 2011, terrene mentioned a new idea in a thread sort of related to the problem. I've excerpted her comments and some of mine. RE: Birds and other mobile features in the garden 2011 #6 Posted by terrene 5b MA (My Page) on Sat, Oct 15, 11 at 8:00 So, I finally catch on camera, the culprits who have been eating the Swiss chard, Impatiens capensis, and Aster laevis. They also ate my morning glories down twice, but then I got smart and laid down 4 foot wire fencing flat on the ground along the back and sides of the trellis. This worked great! They don't like walking on it, and the Morning glories made something of a comeback. I think this is a Mama and her 3 youngsters. (photo posted on the thread) RE: Birds and other mobile features in the garden 2011 #6 Posted by claire z6b Coastal MA (My Page) on Sat, Oct 15, 11 at 10:33 That's an interesting idea, terrene, of laying the four foot wire fencing flat on the ground. I suppose it wouldn't work if the deer were desperate, but might just deter them in normal times. I wonder if it would help to lay the fencing down in combination with an upright fence. Maybe the deer wouldn't be willing to jump up over the fence if they had to take off while standing on the wire on the ground. Claire RE: Birds and other mobile features in the garden 2011 #6 Posted by terrene 5b MA (My Page) on Sat, Oct 15, 11 at 11:00 ………………… Claire, the previous owner of this house and I were having lunch and she mentioned that her brother-in-law uses cattle guard for their driveway. They have the entire yard fenced off, and cattle grid laid down across the driveway. Livestock won't walk across it. The deer really don't like walking on the fencing. Mine is old rusty fencing that is kinda uneven. It is very wobbly and unsteady, they can't get their footing. Even my cat doesn't like walking on it (and I have to watch not to trip over it!). ...……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. ………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….. GENERAL INFORMATION There's a lot of information on the Internet, and a web search using the term "Deer damage prevention" will get you to a number of good sites. CATEGORIES OF PREVENTION Available methods mostly fall into the following categories: *Physical Barriers (such as fences, including electric fences and netting) *Scare tactics (noise, water sprays, gunshots, etc.) *Repellents (smelly soap, Bobbex, wax coatings, hair, urine) *Execution (shoot them, eat them, and/or hang the head on your wall) *Remove attractions (only grow plants they don't like)