I have a few thoughts... I've tried cane pruning on a couple vines, and I couldn't tell any difference in the fruit quality or the yield so I abandoned the idea. I find spur pruning to be quicker and a lot simpler. In my opinion, either method is fine unless you are dealing with one of those few varieties that do no produce fruit on the first few buds. Dis-regarding those varieties, just go with what you know and what works for you. The only other reason I can see that cane pruning would be better is that buds with high light exposure usually produce more fruit. With cane pruning you can choose the canes that got the most light whereas with spur pruning your choices are very limited. We have plenty of sunshine here, so I don't see it as an issue, but in Oregon (not as much sunshine) it may be more important. I'm guessing the distinction between table and wine grapes is because, with wine grapes, you don't want high yield (many clusters are often dropped at veraison) so being a little less fruitful is no problem. I've visited several commercial vineyards here in Idaho. We have both table and wine grape vineyards in the area, and all that I have visited are spur pruning and producing very high quality fruit. I know that what is best for commercial growers is not always what is best for "backyard" growers, but in this case, it does show that spur pruning is commercially viable (at least in the Snake River Valley). Fruitnut, I think it was you who, a couple of years ago, advised me to visit the U of I research facility. I'm really glad you did, I got some vines (cuttings) from them and learned a lot about viticulture and fruit growing in general. Thanks for the suggestion.

Cath, we have a lot of the same plants, but evidently mice and boars don't gobble up all your crocuses. I am so glad that hellebores and narcissus are poisonous and get left alone! It all sounds lovely--lots of little plants that you can pay close attention to. You remind me that for some reason I've never planted snowdrops. There's a nandina with pale berries? I'll have to keep an eye out for it. And I need to start getting pickier about my hellebores. Most of my orientalis ones are seedlings from friends' gardens, some very pretty, but a few have flowers that could honestly be described as insignificant. H. foetidus and, I think it's H. viridiflora, are native locally; it's a clan that does well here. Suzy, You're right. I'm pretty well acquainted with my winter rhythms: every year I collapse around our Thanksgiving (it falls in the fourth week of November) and come back to life around the end of January/beginning of February. You could say that my illness and the bad weather will help tide me over the dreariest time of the year, since by the time both are past we should be arrived at the period when I regularly perk up anyway. Meanwhile I intend to stay warm and, perhaps, continue my review of Latin. 'Treasure Trove' is satisfactory once it gets going. Last year when it flowered it was a sheet, a wall, of pale apricot-tinted bloom, and the foliage and new growth are handsome. I don't know how hardy it is; its appearance suggests Tea not too far back in its ancestry. I wish we had more trees to grow massive climbers up. I definitely approve of your intention of growing lots of them on your new property. About garden design vs. plant collecting: Graham Thomas said that gardeners tended to be predominantly one or the other, along a continuum of course. For my part I think I'm equal parts collector and landscape gardener, and a lot of my garden planning is dedicated to finding the right plant that the garden needs for a particular situation, and finding the right situation for the plant I want to grow. You CAN have it both ways. YOU can have it both ways, if that's what you want. As you say, you already know what you need to do; it's just a matter of deciding what you truly desire. Henry Mitchell (my favorite garden writer and a wise man) said that gardeners generally start out just wanting a lot of flowers, and then over time start learning to plan along more architectural (for want of a better word) lines, just because they find they like the results better. I totally agree with him. Obviously I'm a collector, and I'll add that I'm allergic to masses of cloned plants; I'm for variety, once and always. But there's nothing in the garden that moves me more than a glimpse of the ignoble shed in one corner, with ill-tended grass and three happily grouped adolescent Italian cypresses: that combination of volume, form, height, and emptiness causes a thrill in my stomach every time my eyes light on it. Shade gardening is probably easier in Italy than it is in England, as we get so much more sun than you do. Roses actually like part shade here. The difficulty of the shade garden is that much of the soil is extremely thin, as it's an old slide area, and where it didn't slide it was because of underlying rock. The garden needs a lot of organic matter, and adding soil doesn't hurt either. These may not be problems on the property you're moving onto. Your plants are going to somewhat different than the ones I grow: perhaps box will do better for you than for me; perhaps bay laurel will be too tender for your garden while osmanthus or holly are a sure bet. But I agree about evergreen shrubs. To quote Henry Mitchell on the Hick's yew: "Like all yews, it confers a remarkable air of solidity, cheerfulness, [and] sobriety..."; and similar claims can be made for many other evergreens. Best wishes for your new garden! Thanks, Pam, and you are so right. Paula, continue ever hopeful. I hope my garden will come together one day and begin to approach what I have in mind; so much of the that mental image seems a remote dream. But I keep on planning and digging and planting. Visitors are welcome, by the way, if you get round to this part of the world. Suzy, I would be interested to see what you make of my activities. Melissa

It is a groundcover in that it is low growing and has a spreading, creeping growth habit. But not always a very dense or full coverage. Very closely related to our native Oregon grape, Mahonia nervosa, which gets about twice the height but with a similar spreading/suckering habit. Both are very tolerant of dry, shady conditions and like many dry shade plants, can grow rather quickly and robustly if given rich soil and plenty of water. Yellow spring flowers followed by purple berries (the "grape" part of the name) that are edible but very bitter tasting - best cooked with a LOT of sugar as a jam :-) Can develop leaf spot, rust and burn if in too much sun. Foliage often turns a burnished color in cold weather.

I am a new member of GW, and have never posted before, but I felt the need to jump in here, as I have both of the Mahonia plants in this discussion. Mahonia aquifolium and M bealei have different zone requirements, altho culture is otherwise the same. Also, M. bealei is somewhat a larger plant, I think. I live in zone 4b and bought a M Bealei that was not marked for hardiness. I have had it for 3 winters, going into the fourth. I have it in a VERY protected place. The rabbits love it, they manage to eat a lot of it every winter, no matter how well I cage it. It would probably be a lot larger otherwise! It is very slow growing for me, but rabbits aside, It probably isn't a bit happy in my zone. I'm actually amazed that it is alive.