Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

Now, lets talk about how to use the technology!

To use the bags is fine but you must know the size of the particular plant to decide what size bag. I suggest it is better to use the cloth and make your own that fits the plant OR the planting area. I think it would be better to use a large amount cloth for a bed rather than several or a lot of bags that would be more expensive.

The bags will work but if you think about your planting globally could reduce overall cost and work better. Think about the size bag required for a S&S then another bag or group for the plants around this S&S.

Another way to think about use would be bags to control size so the bed would sort of maintain the spacing you want and not over grow each other.

They were originally designed to root prone trees and keep the root mass in a restricted space for digging. The tree roots would touch the copper hydroxide and the tips would die then branch out within this restricted area. Then the tree could be dug without losing root mass or suffer root shock when dug, they would dig the whole bag and peal it off and pot or B&B.

They are designed to have the coating inside but we want to put the coating out so it causes the tree roots to turn away or not intrude into the hosta root space.

The spin-out name comes from the effect it has on roots in a pot, the root reaches the inside of the pot and suffers and stops growing in that direction and branches reducing the problem of roots circling inside a pot. This is not good for hosta in a pot so I would not buy spin-out coated pots to grow hosta.

If you use spin-out we would all like to know what, where, and when.

Those are the bags I bought this summer and have been planting my hostas in. There is a link at the Hosta Library. I'll paste the link here too. I can't wait to see the difference next year!
E-O have you used them yet?

Here is a link that might be useful: Root Control Bags

ok here goes - i have been using texel material for 5 years and it is performing very well. i plant in a total woods and most of the trees are quite invasive with their roots. this year i switched to the tex-r bags and to date it is outperforming the raw material. it is imperative to leave 1" of the material above ground so roots do not invade over the top of the material. the bags have also proven to be more economical because of the waste factor with the material.

the product is sold for the tree industry. they use the copper side in but in the hosta world you must use the black copper side to the outside to coterize the roots of the invading trees.
without using the texel product here the 1500 different varieties of hostas i grow would shrink away to nothing and perish.

as to the size of the bag - it is truely amazing how small a root system a very large hosta has. 95% of all that i plant goes into 5 gallon bags. the larger 5% go into 10 gallon bags. if they ever get any bigger than that i do not think that tree roots will be a problem - they might kill the tree - lol.

i have found another advantage to the bags - if you want to move something - pull out both bags and swap them. piece of cake!

I don't use them because I don't really care how big they get, if grows it stays if it doesn't I move it or it dies.

I talk about the bags because I know how it works and know many want to maximise the size and spend some big bucks to get plants, why not go the next step.

Start a thread and ask how many want their plants to be as big and beautiful as the ones in the hosta library? For everyone who answers yes should use spin-out bags or cloth.

Unless you really like digging BIG holes, or you REALLY think it's necessary to use a 10 gal bag, go for the 5 gallon bags! I've been planting hosta's from 1 gal pots into the 5 gal bags and they seem plenty roomy. My best advice is to grab a buddy to help. One set of hands to hold the plant and another to fill the bag with soil. ; )

The feedback that you're giving is great and very promising.

I called the company today that sells these bags and told him my situation and what I wanted to do.
He said that he sells alot of them to hosta gardeners who turn the bags inside out to keep the tree roots away. Just as EO said.

Below is a pic of one of my gardens and you'll see the pond behind it. Rainwater runs down my driveway, over my garden and right down into the pond.

The trees in this garden are a Silver Maple and a ??? (it has throns).
Per Ken's suggestion last spring I had 3 of the 4 Silver Maples removed.
The one that you see is staying and I'm anxious for it to give more shade.

Do you feel that the Copper Hydroxide in Spinout would harm my fish?

That is my only concern....the fish.
I have a few dozen beautiful full grown Koi in that pond that I'd hate to kill.

What'll you think?

Check out the link below.

For those of you that use these bags...do you notice less slugs?

Here is a link that might be useful: Slugs & Spin Out bags

Copper is very definitely a problem for slugs and the pot test proves that, now to spin-out bags or cloth. The slug must crawl over the spin-out coating to be effected so one would need to leave a lip above ground as a barrier, this would cause moisture to wick out of the soil. If one wanted to use spin-out as a barrier then making a ring around the plant on top of the ground would be effective but it would have to be exposed causing the slug to crawl across this ring. Accumulated debri on this ring would create a bridge but it could be use effectively as long as the surface was clear.

To pots, spin-out is sold as a paint to spray or paint on a surface so it could be applied to existing pots effectively.

The copper hydroxide is mixed with latex paint and will last a long time applied to a clean surface.

How about the pond and the fish?
Any thoughts on potential problems there using Spin Out?

I don't think it will be a problem since the copper is stable in the latex paint but I don't know, ask the manufacturer. At no point will you have a large accumulation and the pond is a very capable of creating new chemical compounds that are safe for nature.

The spin-out work came out of some university (don't remember which one) so I'm sure the question was studied and understood and the manufacturer should know what affect it will have on the environment.

Study bog septic systems, a bog will change dangerous chemicals and minerals into safe stable chemical compounds and your pond is similar to a bog. They are used to clean up toxic sites.

If you really want to use this slope to full advantage create bogs below the current bed finally empting into your pond. This will also use rainwater more efficiently. If you are interested I can go into detail about how. The final water that enters the pond will be very clean. Properly sized bogs septic system will produce drinking water, poop in one end and drink out of the other end. I don't recommend going that far but they are very efficient. Surprise, God has a system that works very well.

EO, I've been trying all day to get in touch with different
Gov offices to give me some info.

The bog idea is not something that I'd be interested in.
Maybe years ago, but I'm just getting too old to take care
of what I have now.

I have 2 other hosta beds that have Silver Maples in and I'm going to use the bags in those beds.
One bed has a Sweet Gum tree in and...oh my.... you just
wouldn't believe the root system of a Sweet Gum tree!
The runoff water from those two beds doesn't go in the direction of the pond.
I'm going to order the bags for those beds soon.
Or, should I wait until spring?
Probably next spring, huh?

If you use it now then mulch heavily to avoid heaving, with that now would be better, don't interupt growth or root development next spring.

Don't bother with the government, the producer of toxic materials are required to know and advise you about the effects of their product. Call or communicate with the company they will know what you need to know.

I'm not really knowledgeable about the effects of the copper on your fish. I doubt that you'd have any significant amount leach into your pond and probably never enough to poison the fish. I know people who live on lakefront property that throw copper sulfate into the water around their docks to keep to seaweed under control, but never heard of fish being killed in doing so. I've seen copper pennnies thrown into fountains and pools that have goldfish swimming around in them. And probably most of us drink the water everyday in our homes that runs through copper pipes before coming out at the faucett, or have a copper tea kettle. If you want to know for sure just how much copper a fish can tolerate, buy one spin-out bag and line the inside of a 5 gal. bucket. Fill it with water and drop in a goldfish. If he's still swimming around after a couple days, then you're good to go! :) Don

Don, that's an excellent idea, but I'll try a blue gill,
got thousands of them.

EO, I called one company...they didn't know the answer.
I'll try others.

Well, with my 40 lb sack of Sluggo, I got the slugs under
control.

With the 5 gallons of ZeroTol that I've bought this summer, I
kinda think I got a handle on the nematodes.

Now it's time to tackle the roots. lol

What could possibly be next?

I can assure you that there isn't a problem because to use them would lead to runoff entering the water table and they would not be allowed to market the product. But I understand that you want to be sure. A crusader needs a crusade, mount your horse and ride off to slay a dragon. When you return with the dragon I'll send you to find the Holy Grail.

LOL

If anyone is interested in that bog business for cleaning water, I think that the National Park Service is using something similar to deal with the wastewater issue at its Concord MA visitor center. The one that is near the North Bridge (the one where The Shot Heard Round the World etc was fired). They have gone to super-little water in the toilets & I think they made a wetland for that water to go into & be cleaned. Instead of a traditional septic system. As you can imagine they have a lot of visitor traffic & their old system failed.

Maybe an email to the Rangers up there would help with info on the topic.

This is really great information. I get a lot of people who ask about planting under a lot of different types of invasive trees so I'll be sure to pass this along.

To Sassy, too much copper can harm fish, but I doubt there is enough total in the bags to harm them. Copper is sometimes added to lakes/ponds to control snails or algae. It turns the ponds blue but at the proper levels it won't hurt fish. So I'm wondering - your pond looks very blue! Have you already added copper sulphate to the water for some other reason? If so, and your fish are fine, I wouldn't worry about it in the bags.

Hi ctopher, One year we had a lot of algae and added a very small amount of copper sulphate which did the trick.

The next year we bought a couple of
Triploid Grass Carps: aka: White Amur or White Amir from the state.

One died, the other one turned into a monster fish... we haven't had algae since.

Those fish are really ugly and for aquatic vegetation control.

In order to buy them they have to be certified as sterile (I wonder how they neuter a fish??)

The blue water that you referred to is just a gallon of
Aqua Shade poured into the pond every spring to disquise the muddy water after the spring rains.
I just like the blue color.

Below is an old pic taken right after we built the house, the other one was taken this year after we redid some deck work.
The Aqua Shade is supposed to be safe enough to drink.
I think it's just food coloring.

Now, back to hostas.... I think I'll concentrate on 2 of my other beds before I do the one closest to the pond.
Those other beds will keep me quite busy for awhile.

Everyone chime in with opinions:
What size bag should I buy for S&S, sagae & others that large? What size bag for small ones like Blue Cadet?
Would you do this in October or wait till next spring?

Sassy, I understand the advantage of using one bag for one plant but if I were going to do a bed I would consider the cloth rolls and build something like a pond liner for a whole area. Of course if the tree root found a way in it would be like a leaking pond.

Hey EO.....Would this product help with voles also? I am about at my wits end here with voles. The hostas are definately ready to come out of the pots and go into the ground but I am not going to create a buffet for the varmints and until I do get a grip on this problem I just keep repotting them into bigger pots. I would love to find a definitive method of protecting the roots and crown so I can finally begin creating gardens here rather than pot groupings. Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Art

Art, a couple of questions.

Do you will you have tree roots competitation that you would like to deal with when planting?

How much trouble are you willing to go to fight the voles?

EO.....I am looking at an area around an oak right now.....A very big oak but I don't think the roots are going to be a huge problem. All of the trees in my yard except one big Linden? I think is what it is and some pines. My main thought here is that the bags may keep out the voles. I have tried the poison in the front yard and it worked well but they keep coming back. I won't use the poison in back because that is my dogs play area. I am willing to do a lot within reason. I have probably 400 named hostas and another 200 seedlings that I would love to get in the ground. And lets not forget the 200 or so daylillies too. What are you thinking? So as not to hijack this thread I am going to start another thread. Thanks for the help!
Art

EO, I just don't think doing a pond-like bed using the roll of cloth would be easier for me.
No, that just wouldn't work.
I have it all planned out....I get my hubby to drag out his "toy" and put him to work making me a bunch of really
large holes.
I would really like some opinions on what size bags to buy and when should I get started...next month or next spring?

Below is a pic that I posted last spring of my hubby digging
me some holes for my latest bed. I highly recommend an auger!

Sassy, given how quickly medium sized hosta roots have filled up my 3 and 5 gallon pots, I'd go with 10 gallon bags for large hosta. I just moved a 3yr. old Azure Snow from a 5 gallon pot to a 10. Are you using pro-mix or garden soil?

If your new bed is under a maple, I'd go with the lined bed if you can manage it. Those maple roots suck up all the moisture around the pots. Yep, that's what I'd do.

"Below is a pic that I posted last spring of my hubby digging me some holes for my latest bed. I highly recommend an auger!"
Sassy

I want to marry your husband.

It is easier to go to big than go back and put in a bigger one!

OK, I found out the info that I wanted.
I spoke to the makers of the Spin Out bags...Sepro Co.

They said that it will be perfectly safe for my fish
to plant these bags near my pond.

The spin out is in a latex (rubber base) and although some may leach out into my pond, it will be "parts per trillion".

They also said it's EPA use ok. Gloves or masks are not
even required when handling the bags.

So, I'm ready to get going on this project.

Right now I'm waiting for 3 suppliers to call me back with prices.

I plan to order 5 & 10gal bags, but I'm wondering if I maybe should order a few 16 gal bags for the monster ones like S&S?

For those of you who are curious about these bags....one
company asked if I'd like a few sample bags sent to me free.

Here's who I spoke to;
'Diana'
A.M. Leonard Inc.
1-800-543-8955
www.amieo.com

I had emailed a company that sells these bags and
asked if they sell bags larger than 10 gallon size.
Below is an email that I received from that company answering my question.
His answer was interesting.

2/53
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2007 06:41:20 -0500
From: "Green Screen"
To:
Subject: Re: Request for information All headers

Hi Carol, I do not carry anything larger at this time. I can get them from
Texel with a stock order but they would come in a case quantity (100 - 200
depending on size). I have over 750 of my 1500 hostas growing in bags here
and none of them have required over a 10 gallon bag. Less than one percent
even require the 10 gal size. I even have 2 massive Sub and Substances
growing in the 5 gallon bags! Thanks for your interest. Please let me know
is I can be of any more help.
Ken Harris
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 2:37 AM
Subject: Request for information

For those interested in these spin out bags...
I've been doing my research for the best prices and
below is an email tht I received with the prices
from a place called Hort Specialties Inc.
If interested call, Jay Adcock. He's great to deal with.
I just finished placing my order.
Now, I have to go out and find a place that will deliver me
a truck load of good dirt.

Jay Adcock will be sending me some articles that he said are really good. When he finds them I'll pass them onto
you guys.

5/72
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 07:15:11 -0500
From: "Jay Adcock"
To: "nursecarol"
Subject: Re: bags for hostas All headers

Good morning Carol, see below bag pricing.
7 gal 1.76 ea.

10 gal 2.38 ea

15 gal 2.69 ea.

5 gal 1.37 ea.

3 gal 1.03 ea.

Let me know. I guess shipping to be about $20-$25.. Thanks for the
Inerest.

Hort Specialties Inc.
Jay Adcock
11556 Serenity Lane
Pinckney MI 48169
734-878-1814 p/f
734-395-2869 cell
www.horticulturespecialties.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "nursecarol"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 12:51 PM
Subject: bags for hostas

>
> Hi Jay,
>
> Yeah, please send me those articles that you have on the bags.
> I'll be calling you tomorrow morning.
>
> Thanks,
> Carol

I completed a project with the bags in my front yard a couple of weeks ago. I used mostly 3 and 5 gallon bags and some 10 gallon ones. I purchased them from Macenzie Nursery for around the same price as above - shipping was minimal and they were easy to deal with. I'll post some pics later.

Here is a link that might be useful: Macenzie Nursery

Does anybody know a supplier of the spinout bags in Canada?