My pathetic hostas (help, please)

9 years ago

Hello Hosta Authorities,

I am in need of some help. I'm a seasoned gardener but I can't seem to figure out what is up with this hosta bed. I have decent hostas elsewhere in the yard, but in this spot they are just struggling and they are smaller than they were last year. The bed is in its 3rd year. All the plants were moved here from a similar bed nearby, which is doing just fine.

The bed is tucked up under the eaves of the house, so the back row doesn't get natural rain. But I water it by hand. I also used some liquid fertilizer (Bill's Perfect) and added a fresh layer of soil pep in an effort to get things moving along.

The soil is OK, amended, alkaline silt loam. Not the worst but not awesome either.

One thing that is interesting is that other plants with similar cultural requirements (huechera, ferns) are doing just fine.

Here are the pics.

The overall bed. It's on the north side of the house and gets evening sun.

From the other direction:

Fragrant Bouquet.

Elegans. It's less than 1 foot across. I know how huge these should be and I've had them before. Poor little thing!

Hosta fortunei 'aureo marginata.' Since I took these pictures, I pulled on the the smaller plants and they just came right out of the ground.

Another 'aureo marginata.' This one is closer to the front of the bed and is a little happier. But the veining on the new leaf makes me wonder if it has an iron deficiency. Do hostas get iron cholorosis?
The white spots on the leaves are deer spray.

Sagae.

Pretty pathetic. Don't judge me! But I would love some input from you all!

thank you,
Karin

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Comments (18)

ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
9 years ago
those are rather large plants...

3 to 5 to 7 years.. for full impact ... [10 years for the elegans, sometimes]

every time you dig them up... you set them back.. when was the last time you set them back ????

i also wonder.. if they are planted too deep .. the crown should be at soil level.. or just an inch below ...

and please dont tell me.. there is landscape fabric under there ...

i suspect.. most of the problem.. is your expectation.. that hosta grow as fast as other perennials ... they dont.. on some level ...

ken

ps: elegans should have flowered in late may ... if your is currently blooming.. i doubt its E ....
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karin_mt
Original Author
9 years ago
Thanks Ken. No landscape fabric, so we can eliminate that mistake.

I understand that hosta take awhile to get up their steam, but my concern is that these are going backwards, smaller this year than last, and the growth they have this year is just weak and painful. Not vigorous at all.

This is their 3rd year of being in this spot. When I moved them in they were big and healthy with many eyes per plant. Then last year they were pretty good, sort of taking time to settle in. But this year they all look like seedlings.

I do have high expectations though, you're spot on about that!
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There is a concept called "perched water table" where the size of the pot has no real influence on drainage, here is an excerpt from another post, courtesy of "tapla" from another forum - you can do a search in the GW for more info: Water Movement in Soils Consider this if you will: Soil need fill only a few needs in plant culture. Anchorage - A place for roots to extend, securing the plant and preventing it from toppling. Nutrient Sink - It must retain sufficient nutrients to sustain plant systems. Gas Exchange - It must be sufficiently porous to allow air to the root system. And finally, Water - It must retain water enough in liquid and/or vapor form to sustain plants between waterings. Most plants could be grown without soil as long as we can provide air, nutrients, and water, (witness hydroponics). Here, I will concentrate primarily on the movement of water in soil(s). There are two forces that cause water movement through soil - one is gravity, the other capillary action. Gravity needs little explanation, but for this writing I would like to note: Gravitational flow potential (GFP) is greater for water at the top of the pot than it is for water at the bottom of the pot. I'll return to that later. Capillarity is a function of the natural forces of adhesion and cohesion. Adhesion is water's tendency to stick to solid objects like soil particles and the sides of the pot. Cohesion is the tendency for water to stick to itself. Cohesion is why we often find water in droplet form - because cohesion is at times stronger than adhesion, waters bond to itself can be stronger than the bond to the object it might be in contact with; in this condition it forms a drop. Capillary action is in evidence when we dip a paper towel in water. The water will soak into the towel and rise several inches above the surface of the water. It will not drain back into the source. It will stop rising when the GFP equals the capillary attraction of the fibers in the paper. There is, in every pot, what is called a "perched water table" (PWT). This is water that occupies a layer of soil that is always saturated & will not drain at the bottom of the pot. It can evaporate or be used by the plant, but physical forces will not allow it to drain. It is there because the capillary pull of the soil at some point will equal the GFP; therefore, the water does not drain, it is "perched". If we fill five cylinders of varying heights and diameters with the same soil mix and provide each cylinder with a drainage hole, the PWT will be exactly the same height in each container. This is the area of the pot where roots seldom penetrate & where root problems begin due to a lack of aeration. From this we can draw the conclusion that: Tall growing containers are a superior choice over squat containers when using the same soil mix. The reason: The level of the PWT will be the same in each container, with the taller container providing more usable, air holding soil above the PWT. Physiology dictates that plants must be able to take in air at the roots in order to complete transpiration and photosynthesis. A given volume of large soil particles have less overall surface area in comparison to the same volume of small particles and therefore less overall adhesive attraction to water. So, in soils with large particles, GFP more readily overcomes capillary attraction. They drain better. We all know this, but the reason, often unclear, is that the PWT is lower in coarse soils than in fine soils. The key to good drainage is size and uniformity of soil particles. Large particles mixed with small particles will not improve drainage because the smaller particles fit between the large, increasing surface area which increases the capillary attraction and thus the water holding potential. Water and air cannot occupy the same space at the same time. Contrary to what some hold to be true, sand does not improve drainage. Pumice (aka lava rock), or one of the hi-fired clay products like Turface are good additives which help promote drainage and porosity because of their irregular shape. Now to the main point: When we use a coarse drainage layer under our soil, it does not improve drainage. It does conserve on the volume of soil required to fill a pot and it makes the pot lighter. When we employ this exercise in an attempt to improve drainage, what we are actually doing is moving the level of the PWT higher in the pot. This reduces available soil for roots to colonize, reduces total usable pot space, and limits potential for beneficial gas exchange. Containers with uniform soil particle size from top of container to bottom will yield better drainage and have a lower PWT than containers with drainage layers. The coarser the drainage layer, the more detrimental to drainage it is because water is more (for lack of a better scientific word) reluctant to make the downward transition because the capillary pull of the soil above the drainage layer is stronger than the GFP. The reason for this is there is far more surface area in the soil for water to be attracted to than there is in the drainage layer. I know this goes against what most have thought to be true, but the principle is scientifically sound, and experiments have shown it as so. Many nurserymen are now employing the pot-in-pot or the pot-in-trench method of growing to capitalize on the science. If you discover you need to increase drainage, insert a wick into the pot & allow it to extend from the PWT to several inches below the bottom of the pot. This will successfully eliminate the PWT & give your plants much more soil to grow in as well as allow more, much needed air to the roots. Uniform size particles of fir, hemlock or pine bark are excellent as the primary component of your soils. The lignin contained in bark keeps it rigid and the rigidity provides air-holding pockets in the root zone far longer than peat or compost mixes that rapidly break down to a soup-like consistency. Bark also contains suberin, a lipid sometimes referred to as natureÂs preservative. Suberin is what slows the decomposition of bark-based soils. It contains highly varied hydrocarbon chains and the microorganisms that turn peat to soup have great difficulty cleaving these chains. In simple terms: Plants that expire because of drainage problems either die of thirst because the roots have rotted and can no longer take up water, or they starve to death because they cannot obtain sufficient air at the root zone for the respiratory or photosynthetic processes. To confirm the existence of the PWT and the effectiveness of using a wick to remove it, try this experiment: Fill a soft drink cup nearly full of garden soil. Add enough water to fill to the top, being sure all soil is saturated. Punch a drain hole in the bottom of the cup & allow to drain. When the drainage stops, insert a wick several inches up into the drain hole . Take note of how much additional water drains. This is water that occupied the PWT before being drained by the wick. A greatly simplified explanation of what occurs is: The wick "fools" the water into thinking the pot is deeper, so water begins to move downward seeking the "new" bottom of the pot, pulling the rest of the PWT along with it. Having applied these principles in the culture of my containerized plants, both indoors and out, for many years, the methodology I have adopted has shown to be effective and of great benefit to them. I use many amendments when building my soils, but the basic building process starts with screened bark and perlite. Peat usually plays a very minor role in my container soils because it breaks down rapidly and when it does, it impedes drainage.
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Babka NorCal 9b
9 years ago
They might be too deeply planted. When you dig in there is the soil moist 4-6" down? Looks like a lot of mulch, which is a good thing, except when it covers the crown too deeply.

-Babka
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josephines167 z5 ON Canada
9 years ago
I was going to say the same thing about the mulch, Karin...maybe push it back from the crown so you can visibly see the soil around it. The mulch might have shifted towards the crowns of all your plants in that bed from rain downpours.

The other thing I wanted to mention was the effects of this past brutal winter. They could be reacting to that. However, after three years in this location these transplants should have established themselves by now, you are right.

My suggestion is to see what's going on at the root level of the ones you just pulled up so easily with your hands. Let us know what you find. :-)

Jo
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don_in_colorado
9 years ago
Hi Karin,

I'd bring them up a bit, as they look too-deeply planted to my eye as well. I've done that in my garden, and observed that it does affect vigor and hampers plant growth.

Cheers,
Don B.
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karin_mt
Original Author
9 years ago
Ah, consensus, I like that! Thank you all for chiming in.

Planted too deep could well be the problem. The soil in this bed was still settling when I planted these because the whole bed and area around it was newly filled in. So the depth was in flux at that time.

The soil is surprisingly wet down 3-4 inches. As in, I think the pieces I pulled out had rotted.

Mulch is only about 1-2" thick, so not too thick, but maybe it's adding depth where it's already too deep.

So, would a possible plan be to pull the plants out, maybe amend a little better to aid drainage, and re-plant a little higher? And if so, should I do that now? I guess there is not much to lose since at this rate they won't get through the coming winter.

Thank you for the suggestions, I really appreciate it!

Karin
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josephines167 z5 ON Canada
9 years ago
If you only pull soil back, it can get washed in towards plants again. I say dig up and replant. Your hostas will thank you for it. :-)

On the plus side, you don't have to move that many! I keep a short piece of plywood handy for when I add new soil to a new bed. I fill it, water it all, then lay down the plywood, walk about on it to somewhat compact the moistened soil, then dig holes and plant. Works for me.
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DelawareDonna
9 years ago
I plan to relocate 5 one year plants. Will I hamper their growth if I keep the root system and surrounding soil intact when lowering them in the new hole?

DD
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5
9 years ago
first.. link them to your other post about your new wall.. this group will be highly entertained by it ...

second.. some guy ... i cant recall who ... did a post titled .. MOVING A FULLY LEAFED OUT HOSTA ... or some such.. perhaps if you review it.. you might glean some tidbits of knowledge.. see link ....

if they have been regressing for 3 years.. crikey woman.. dig them up and find out whats going on .... based on the other post.. i am surprised you of all peeps.. havent already done that ... lol ...

a dormant hosta.. in frozen soil ... especially if snow cover.. doest freakin care how cold winter is ... its simply irrelevant.. IMHO ... its the warm winters... when they might go in and out of dormancy... that wreak havoc with dormant plants.. because they dont stay dormant all winter .... with snow.. dont forget.. its a great insulator... and and air temps dont affect soil under snow.. frozen is frozen.. and there is no wind chill ...

anyway... my hosta friends.. especially you warm zone peeps.. i will yell... SHE HAD SNOW INT EH FORECAST FOR THE LAST FEW DAYS ... lol ...

ken

ps: 95% of us.. mail order hosta .. lets these old turds die.. and order up some newer.. better hosta... blimey ... lifes to short to deal with these 50 year old cultivars ... review the last 50 pages of hosta posts in this forum for some great pix ... etc ... rotflmbo ....

Here is a link that might be useful: link
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karin_mt
Original Author
9 years ago
Entertaining as always Ken, thanks!

We got a beautiful coating of snow up high yesterday. When the sun finally came out this morning it was a wonderful sight. All's still green and growing happily down here in the valley though.

You are right that I'm remiss in checking in on these hostas. They seemed so feeble this year that I just didn't want to mess with them in case that did them in for good. But I will. Really. I would do it this evening but I need some vigorous exercise, now that the wall is built I need to do something else exhausting every day. :)

Yes, new hostas are greatly tempting. But I'd hate to spend the $$ and put them in a doomed site. We'll see what shakes out by the spring.

I'll do some digging and check back in with a full report. I've got masking tape and everything.

Here is a link that might be useful: Stone wall project that Ken is referring to
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don_in_colorado
9 years ago
"a dormant hosta.. in frozen soil ... especially if snow cover.. doest freakin care how cold winter is ... its simply irrelevant.. IMHO ... its the warm winters... when they might go in and out of dormancy... that wreak havoc with dormant plants.. because they dont stay dormant all winter ...." -- Ken Marek

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!! Hostas LOVE long, cold hibernation! Freeze/thaw/freeze/thaw cycle is what does them in! I've read Chris Wilson and Bob Solberg and Mark Zilis state the same thing! Now Ken! It's the Quadrafecta!!!

Anyway, as you were...

Don B.
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bkay2000
9 years ago
I also would suggest you add some ironite to your soil, if it's alkaline as you say. Hosta don't like really alkaline soil.

bk
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zkathy z7a NC
9 years ago
How much compacting did they do on that soil after they had it all dug up? That area might not be draining as well as the rest of your yard.

Kathy
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bishop5
9 years ago
That does not look like my Elegans ... Are you sure you have the right ID? Mine also flowered in May.
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karin_mt
Original Author
9 years ago
I think it is Elegans based on how it was growing in its former spot. Agreed it just doesn't look right now, particularly because it's so puny. It could have been mislabeled too, I suppose. I've had it for many years. No hostas bloom in May here. This poor guy didn't even break the soil until June, IIRC. But if Elegans is an early bloomer then maybe it is wrong. Or maybe it's just tossing up a flower spike as its last gasp!

BK, ironite, good call!

Kathy, I built the bed and filled it and it's never been walked on or compacted. But my digging around so far does show that drainage might be an issue - it seems wetter than I expected.

Thanks for the continued input, you guys rock!
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josephines167 z5 ON Canada
9 years ago
My comment re brutal winter effect was written with Guacamole in mind, Karin. When you said they were dwindling...take a look at this version of Guacamole. This is what it looks like. Not bad, just unrecognizeable..it is quite light colour due to sun exposure. It over wintered in the same pot it was purchased.

High hopes for next spring! :-)

By the way, the "wall" you built? An amazing and impressive feat! Really enjoyed that thread. Congratulations!
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josephines167 z5 ON Canada
9 years ago
Here is the before...from last year. I don't know what else to attribute this year's "look" to.
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karin_mt
Original Author
9 years ago
I have a follow-up from my pathetic hosta situation.

I removed one of the ailing plants and rooted around in the soil. There was no obvious problem other than that the soil is not great. It's more clay and alkaline subsoil than I had thought.

So I moved 2 hostas in from elsewhere in the yard, amended a nice wide hole with peat moss, and planted them so they are a little higher than the other ones I put in this bed.

The deer did me a lovely favor and removed most of the leaves from the plants that I was moving in, so they certainly won't get droopy from the move. (The deer de-leafing is why I was moving them anyway, to a more protected place.)

If these survive, I will either dig up and amend the remaining ones, or just scrap them and get some new ones. That thread about your hosta wish list is a very dangerous thing!

Josephine, your Guacamole looks divine, and I like it in both pics. That is one I have always admired.

Thanks again for your help and encouragement!

Karin
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My pathetic hostas (help, please)

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