Terry, here's the link to the Amazon page for the William Cullina book on wildflowers that I mentioned. I find I'm often using his book to decide which native flowers to plant and where to plant them.

Here is a link that might be useful: The New England Wild Flower Society Guide to Growing and Propagating Wildflowers of the United States and Canada

Thanks loris! I ordered myself one...lol...my husband's gonna be so happy with me! I wish I'd known about it when I ordered his other book! It's supposed to ship out by tomorrow!

Terry

4.5 stars...ooooooooooo. i need to remember myself at christmastime!

yes, a giant redwood, for the squirreliness and "stand out of the crowd" urge in me. wouldn't it be just crazy if it would survive our climate? i could just hear someone 100 years from now...news article in the chicago times (now its own state of which all of northern illinois has been deemed no identity of its own)..."last remaining redwood in the usa discovered in illinois. no one knows how it got here or its history. did a seed blow in the wind all the way across the nation?" :)
girl, them flies aren't going to satiate "my" toads! they are from the same scientific lab the genetically modified cows came from. btw, ever see the movie, Food of the Gods?

Why or why, I ask, do I repeatedly have to sign in??? grrr...

A giant redwood for a squirrely owner....:)

O.k. if flies won't help me with the "attack" toad, how bout' my foot?? :)) Nope, never seen Food of the Gods. I saw Jason VS Freddie, does that count??

Food of the Gods is the ultimate B-movie! it would explain everything!!!!

back to your "joe-pye weed" question. the most obvious difference i find is the bloom color. jpw is pinkish. "boneset" is white and sometimes referred to as white jpw. (i think). they are in the same family, closely related, even (who would have thought?) they are, however, two different species. (genus- family- species)

Regarding boneset... "true" boneset, Eupatorium perfoliatum, is easily identified by its leaves. The plant is perfoliate, as the name suggests; "perfoliate" means that the leaf completely surrounds the stem. In boneset, you've got two opposite leaves that are connected to each other around the stem. See this picture for an example:

{{gwi:1066941}}

And, yeah, generally the things called "joe pye weed" tend to have pinkish flowers. Boneset has white flowers, but so do a lot of other Eupatoriums... apart from boneset (Eupatorium perfoliatum), the only two of the white-flowered Eupatoriums I know from Indiana are Eupatorium serotinum & Eupatorium altissimum, which are relatively easy to distinguish from leaves and habitat. Eupatorium altissimum has somewhat wider leaves with shallow teeth and a rough texture, and is an old-field, upland roadside, etc. plant; Eupatorium serotinum has narrower, more deeply toothed leaves with a smooth texture, and is usually on low, wet ground, on lakeshores, etc. For leaves, compare:

Eupatorium altissimum:

{{gwi:1066942}}

Eupatorium serotinum:

{{gwi:1066943}}

Unfortunately I don't know anything about a lot of the other white-flowered Eupatoriums (like Eupatorium hyssopifolium, Eupatorium rotundifolium, etc.)

Patrick Alexander

Thank you Patrick! Now to only get that info into my brain and remember the correct term....What'dya mean you don't know anything about Eupatorium hyssopifolium? Aren't you the teacher??? jus kidding....lol...

Oh, the correct proununciation of boneset? bonesay? bonsay?

fairy, I'll have to see if the video store has Food of the Gods...won't put me to sleep?

Why do they have the same name, eupatorium, if they're from different families/species?

What about the others that I listed? Good? Rudbeckia Triloba, Ratibida Columnifera, Amsonia Tabernaemontana...and I saw another one I believe is a shrub, Clethra (I can't read my own writing) alnifolia?

"Thank you Patrick!"

You're welcome!

"What'dya mean you don't know anything about Eupatorium hyssopifolium? Aren't you the teacher??? jus kidding....lol..."

Well, I haven't seen every plant yet. Give me a couple years. :-)

"Oh, the correct proununciation of boneset? bonesay? bonsay?"

Just like bone & set stuck together. The name comes from an old belief that the plant is useful in treating broken bones. The story I've heard is that this belief is based on the leaves being fused around the stem; if the leaves fuse, they must be good at helping other things fuse, is the idea...

"Why do they have the same name, eupatorium, if they're from different families/species?"

Well, "Eupatorium" is the genus name, and all the species in that genus share the name because they're thought to be closely related. At the next level up, Eupatorium, Helianthus, Echinacea, Taraxacum (dandelions), Lactuca (lettuce), etc., are all in the family Asteraceae because these genera are all though to be closely related. So Eupatorium serotinum and Eupatorium perfoliatum are two species that are more closely related to each other than either is to, for instance, Helianthus tuberosus. But since Eupatorium & Helianthus are both in Asteraceae, they're thought to be more closely related to each other than to anything in a different family like Solanaceae (the nightshade family, including tomatoes, potatoes, etc.)...

Patrick Alexander

but Patrick, I wanna know now! Sorry couldn't help myself:-)

Boneset. Well that's gotta be a first. One who's name actually sounds like it's spelled. I still like bonesay...just sounds better. but boneset it is.

How can a helianthus be related to Joe Pye Weed? They don't look anything alike! Now I can see the relation between helianthus and echinacea...is rudbeckia related also? Are asters in with the Asteraceae'a family? Good grief they have to be....lol...

So many questions....my brain is overflowing...

_______ (can't remember name)

"How can a helianthus be related to Joe Pye Weed? They don't look anything alike!"

Well, yeah, general appearance isn't that similar, but the flower structure is very similar. The most obvious thing uniting all members of Asteraceae is that they all have flowers grouped into dense heads (the heads often being mistaken for single flowers). For instance, here's Eupatorium serotinum:

{{gwi:1066944}}

Each little round bit in there is a separate flower. And here's another member of Asteraceae, Galinsoga quadriradiata:

{{gwi:1066945}}

Now in addition to the smaller round flowers (="disk flowers") we've got those larger white ray flowers. And here's a sunflower (Helianthus hirsutus, in this case):

{{gwi:1066946}}

The ray flowers are much larger, and there are more disk flowers, but the basic structure is the same.

"Now I can see the relation between helianthus and echinacea...is rudbeckia related also?"

Yup.

"Are asters in with the Asteraceae'a family?"

Yup, asters are in Asteraceae. Each plant family is named for one of the genera in it; as it would happen, Aster is a genus as well as a common name (though not everything called "aster" is in the genus Aster!). Likewise Lythraceae is named for Lythrum, Liliaceae is named for Lilium, etc...

Patrick Alexander

Yea, Patrick, I got all that and understood...(uh-huh)...

Isn't a liatris's flowers "grouped into a dense head"? Or am I just dense? :)

Funny you should mention Liatris... it happens to be in Asteraceae, too, closely related to Eupatorium. In Liatris you've got the same heads of flowers, except they're arranged densely in a spike; and if you can make out the individual star-shaped flowers in each head they've got exactly the same structure as in Eupatorium:

{{gwi:1066947}}

Patrick Alexander

i am jsut loving this lesson! thank you,patrick for taking sooo much time! btw, i also love that "reason" for calling it boneseT (that is for you, frenchy, i mean, terry). you know how dense i am? my guide shows a diagram of perfoliate leaves, but i did't get it without the explanation. yeesh. all the mumbo-jumbo in my guide...one term right after the other, just sends me into a short-circuit. oh, great shots!

terry, don't know if the movie will put you to sleep or not. but, i think you will be kept awake by your eyes rolling every 10 seconds.

"Well, "Eupatorium" is the genus name, and all the species in that genus share the name because they're thought to be closely related"---- in other words terry, the GENUS and FAMILY are the same, but they are different SPECIES. sorry, patrick, but i think the ending part had terry confused, thinking both were different. you did explain wonderfully, just reinforcing. example: Eupatorium(family) serotinum (species). Eupatorium (family) perfoliatum (species). technically, terry, these are the final two in latin classification. they are more specific for each plant to those are the two names given to identify ONE "type" (say to differentiate a "boneset" from a jpw), not to include cultivars placed in quotes. also, the family name is capitalized with the species name in lower case, thereby reinforcing the species name as a species and not as a family. sometimes you will see the latin name abbreviated, for example, E. perfoliatum .

now, does that help, terry? you didn't sound too confident.

"Eupatorium(family) serotinum (species)."

Well... Eupatorium's the genus, Asteraceae the family; for this species, the whole hierarchical classification is:

Domain: Eukaryota
Kingdom: Viridaeplantae (plants)
Phylum: Anthophyta (a.k.a. Magnoliophyta; angiosperms, flowering plants)
Class: Dicotyledonae (dicots)
Order: Asterales (don't know if there's a common name at this level)
Family: Asteraceae (sunflower family)
Genus: Eupatorium
Species: serotinum

Patrick Alexander

Well, see! I ain't that dense after all...:)

I am so confused...my eyes are glazing over. Patrick, your last post...ummmm...no clue. Keep trying to explain it and I will eventually get it. I promise. Just think of me as one dumb student :) And you're the tutor. I need ya here, to SHOW me. Then I'll get it.

No senora (I mean fairy), it didn't help. Ever been in a room and the people are speaking, say hebrew? It's flying right over my head. I'll get it, just give me, oh I dunno know, another few years? I had no idea what perfoliate meant, even by his discription until I looked at the photo. Then by golly, I got it!

The pictures are great Patrick...they do the trick in the visual department. It is pretty overwhelming, you must admit.

thank you, patrick, for that correction! i KNEW what i typed didn't sound right! btw, i don't remember "domain." is that new, or just failed memory?

terry, picture a family tree diagram. each level (domain, kingdon...genus, species) is another branch with more branches.

{{gwi:1066948}}

well, that almost worked.

Yuck, this is taking me back to botany class!

Domain is fairly newly added - within the last 10 years or so, I believe. Basically it just separates bacteria from everything else, to put it simply. More technically, Eukaryota are all the organisms with a true nucleus in their cells - that would be animals, plants, protozoans, fungi - as opposed to the organisms which lack a true nucleus, the Prokaryota (bacteria).

Terry, I missed something somewhere in the original thread, I guess - what did you mean by "What about the others that I listed? Good? Rudbeckia Triloba, Ratibida Columnifera, Amsonia Tabernaemontana...and I saw another one I believe is a shrub, Clethra (I can't read my own writing) alnifolia?"

Is anyone else suddenly getting commercials on here? I see nothing, cept what I'm reading, but I hear it?

Fairy, it helps somewhat...but I think geneology (i can't spell) is much easier.

garden4wildlife, those are plants (about the only native) that are listed at a nursery near me. I was wondering if they were good plants to have or no? And of course, since I did a search for them a few days ago, I can't remember what they are...except for the rudbeckia. Are they desirable plants?

When I went to school (HS), you only had to have 1 science glass....Botony sounds interesting but when I have to learn it or remember it? I know my mind will only keep what it thinks it needs and throw out the rest.

Terry

Terry-- basically, each higher level in the classification is just a larger, more inclusive group of species; and at each level, members of one group are more closely related to each other than members of other groups at the same level.

The analogy to human names is sometimes helpful and the genus & species level. A genus is like a human family, and a species like a member of the family. The only difference between our names and species names is that the order of names is reversed. So, in my name, the Alexander indicates the family I belong to and Patrick lets you distinguish me from the other members of my family. Likewise, Eupatorium tells what genus the species belongs to, serotinum distinguishes that species from the others. You can also think of higher level groups just by extending the analogy upwards. You could group all the families in a county into a group, group all the counties in a state into a group, etc. For instance, you could currently classify me as follows:

Continent: North America
Country: USA
State: New Mexico
County: Dona Ana
Family: Alexander
Individual: Patrick

Which would be equivalent to something like:

Phylum: Anthophyta
Class: Dicotyledonae
Order: Asterales
Family: Asteraceae
Genus: Eupatorium
Species: serotinum

The difference there is that in plants all the levels are based on relationship and shared genetic & morphological features, whereas in the human example I was basing levels on geographic area...

Patrick Alexander

O.k. Patrick, making more sense...got a question...morphological? When you get similarities that are off a few different plants? I'm thinking of when they "morph" 3 different people into 1 face? (yes, I got that from Big Brother lol) Are the plants I listed above good (3 up, I think) native plants? Desirable?

And who said if I emailed the nursery about carrying natives I'd get eyes rolling?? Fairy?? I got an email back from them. They are interested in what I have to say..and willing to help....so..nya, nya!

"O.k. Patrick, making more sense...got a question...morphological? When you get similarities that are off a few different plants? I'm thinking of when they "morph" 3 different people into 1 face? (yes, I got that from Big Brother lol)"

Not sure what you're talking about with faces (never seen Big Brother, I guess), but morphology is just any observable structure on a plant... for instance, stamen numbers, petal numbers, petal symmetry (bilaterally symmetrical (as people are) vs. radially symmetrical (as starfish are)), fruit type, etc., all the way down to microscopic characters like the arrangment of cells in leaves and so forth...

On the plants you mention, Rudbeckia triloba & Ratibida columnaris are generally desirable plants for sunny areas (being native primarily in prairies), but I don't really know anything about Amsonia or Clethra... I've heard of them, but that's about it.

Patrick Alexander

garden4wildlife, thanks for that explanation on domain! i am not senile after all (weeeeee!) i graduated 17 years ago. i didn't think it was there!

great analogy, patrick! also, Big Brother is that governmental control and conspiracy thang.

yep, that was me, terry. glad to be wrong! lesson learned.

clethra is a shrub. there are different cultivars resulting in "dwarf" habits, also. fragrant flowers...'hummingbird', i think, i the smallest but not everyone is as happy with the bloom as the others.

if i recall correctly, amsonia will have a nice yellow fall color, if is it "willow blue star". i believe they like moisture (not wet) and sun. R. columnaris is primarily a western species, isn't it? i have the related R. columnifera (?):

Here is a link that might be useful: Rudbeckia triloba

"R. columnaris is primarily a western species, isn't it? i have the related R. columnifera (?):"

Ratibida columnaris is just an old name for Ratibida columnifera... I meant write columnifera but spaced it...

Patrick Alexander

I went to the usda site. It's listed (the ratibida columnaris) for here in ncentral il. It shows it's right next to me in LaSalle County....

On Big Brother (no, not the government, the reality tv show), they morphed 3 different people's faces together...I'll use us as an example....Patrick's forehead and hair, my eyes and nose, and fairy's lips and chin. In plants, I meant in morph, did that mean that a certain plant has certain critera within the genus (? or family), the flowers are alike in this plant, but the leaves and stem look like another plant and on and on. Then you get another plant that is in the same family, but the flowers are a little bit different, but the leaves are that of the first plant. I don't make any sense to anyone but myself :)

Yep, you were wrong! See what you get for thinking the worst in people :) I know clethra is a shrub...is it a desirable one? It's only listed as clethra alnifolia. Mostly this place lists the cultivers, but with this one, it's just listed as clethra alnifolia. The database does seem to suggest it's primarily in the east and south, but we're not..uh..not quite as an***, oops, pecu***, oops, particular. :) Right? lol....

If amsonia needs alot of moisture, I'm not sure it would make it here. Scratch that. I know it wouldn't make it here. So, I'll scratch that one off my list. And I believe I read that the Rudbeckia triloba is a short-lived perennial, but does reseed.

I also emailed another nursery. I asked if they could special order a hop hornbeam in for me. Sorry, I can only remember the common name. They will try and get it for me! Yippee!!! I'm 2 for 2 fairy!!! :)

terry, i am losing it here with that first comment. are you messing with someone or are you serious? must be right next to that giant sequioa/redwood.

"I don't make any sense to anyone but myself"-- makes sense to me. is that scary, or what?

don't quote me on the amsonia, i am going by "memory" here. not a good combination. go to....perennials forum.

if they are just listing Clethra alnifolia, nothing in quotes, it should be the "original" native. you could do a search in the shrubs forum or post a question.

yeahhhhhh on the eastern hop hornbeam! (Ostrya virginiana )

Here is a link that might be useful: clethra

I got a Clethra alnifolia (wild type, not a cultivar) in March. It has so far done very well in the 5 gallon pot I put it in. I'll be planting it in the ground whenever it finally starts getting cooler here (so that I won't have to water every day). It covered itself in hundreds of tiny blooms in June/July, but didn't start opening any until August. I think that's later than typical for Clethra, though. When it did finally start opening, I liked that only a few of the "spikes" of flowers (can't think of the proper name for that flowering arrangement off the top of my head...botany was two years ago!) at a time. Since it didn't open all of them at once, it's still blooming now and still has some yet unopened buds to keep it blooming for a while longer. It's got a really lovely scent that's not overpowering. The only thing I dislike about it is that it's got a very scrawny habit...but that very well could be because it's been grown in a pot since it was a seedling. I think the Eleagnus the previous owners of this house planted next to the steps is going to meet an untimely demise so that the Clethra can take its place and next year I'll be able to smell it from the front porch when it blooms. I've been wanting an excuse to kill that Eleagnus, but I've been focusing most of my energy so far on trying to kill all the Jap. honeysuckle in my yard since it's got berries and the Eleagnus doesn't. Anyway, that's been my short experience with Clethra alnifolia...not sure how it would fare in your neck of the woods but it's been a very low-care, no muss no fuss kind of plant for me so far. It does not seem to be bothered by dry spells of two or three weeks, and I haven't seen any signs of disease or stress. As far as wildlife value, one reason I wanted it was because the Georgia Wildlife Federation says, "Wildlife Benefits: Flowers provide nectar to bees, hummingbirds, and butterflies. Seeds are eaten by a variety of birds and small mammals." Still waiting to see seeds and see what kind of "variety" of animals will visit.

wonderful! i am so glad you shared your experience with it. i have been eyeballing clethras for about a year now...one of these days...

Thanks garden4wildlife, I think I will go ahead and get the clethra! I think you've got a very good excuse to get rid of the eleagnus!

Fairy, which first comment? About Big Brother? People are going to think I'm (or you) are going by 2 different user names...lol....

Terry

the comment i was referring to is: "I went to the usda site. It's listed (the ratibida columnaris) for here in ncentral il. It shows it's right next to me in LaSalle County.... "

which is why i replied, " are you messing with someone or are you serious? must be right next to that giant sequioa/redwood. "

LOL

so, did the nurseries you toured explain any other good reasons for "why natives?"

Ahhh...silly me :) Yes, as a matter of fact, there WAS a giant sequioa right behind it! tee-hee..

The nurseries I toured were not native. They specialize in annuals mostly. They....I'm sure Patrick could explain this better....they cross breed different plants (of the same kind, like a pansy) to get the coloring from that one, the variation from that one, the habit of that other one...and on and on. They come up with all the different "new" annuals you see. Not all of them, but alot of them. It was very interesting....ahhh...that's what an ovary is...:)

I got my book today!! Yippee...I've got some reading to do!

O.k. soooo....how to you group/arrange all the different wildflowers? Just wing it? Read my book to see what's usually beside a paticular plant??

I am soooo p!ssed! I'm in an argument right now with someone who's in the biz...the hort biz...and in a garden that the public can go and visit and "get ideas", I spotted Berberis thunbergii and Euonymus alata planted in amongst the plants. I pointed to them and said those are invasive! That they're on an invasive list for IL. He doesn't think so. So I find the list and email it to him. He says the list is "just a recommendation" and "In MA and CT it is $100 per plant fine." So it's o.k. to plant them because there's no fine in IL??? Somebody, anybody, please explain.

gggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. i cast my vote to IDNR being more concerned with funding hunting than the invasive species list. i could be wrong.

its all about the money and looks.
what book did you get? the big fat one on amazon?

grouping, i would say, prairie plants with prairie plants. woodlands with woodlands, etc. the goldenrod blooms at the same time the liastris does. that should help gibe you an idea. yellows and purples are the native fall colors around here, short of the trees.

I dunno. I guess becuase I don't have credentials, I'm wrong. Can't even have a good old fashioned debate without being put down...:(

I got the William Cullina book on Wildflowers. Yea, it's pretty fat! I read some of it last night.

I meant in grouping (I know enough to plant woodlands in the woodland and prairie in the prairie :) are their plants that look best next to another? In the prairie how are they found? Willy nilly? Or is there more of a rhyme and reason? I've got plants that are for more of a dry prairie than a wet one.

well, i figured you knew but i didn't know what else to tell you :)
mostly i just stick mine wherever, but it shows.